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	<title>Comments on: Reply to George: II. Don&#8217;t Get Ahead of Yourself</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/02/08/30374/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/02/08/30374</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Reed B</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/02/08/30374/comment-page-1#comment-88832</link>
		<dc:creator>Reed B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Feb 2011 21:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=30374#comment-88832</guid>
		<description>Ploughing through this, I keep coming back to a few basic problems:

a)  fallacy of insufficient options - the either/or of his two presented views of marriage.

b)  observational selection (which ties into the &quot;insufficient options&quot;)

c)  special pleading - attacking only one aspect of a complex subject, yet ignoring the entirety

d) strawman argument

e) a touch of the &quot;slippery slope&quot; argument throughout.

Of these, the most glaring and obvious are A and B.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ploughing through this, I keep coming back to a few basic problems:</p>
<p>a)  fallacy of insufficient options &#8211; the either/or of his two presented views of marriage.</p>
<p>b)  observational selection (which ties into the &#8220;insufficient options&#8221;)</p>
<p>c)  special pleading &#8211; attacking only one aspect of a complex subject, yet ignoring the entirety</p>
<p>d) strawman argument</p>
<p>e) a touch of the &#8220;slippery slope&#8221; argument throughout.</p>
<p>Of these, the most glaring and obvious are A and B.</p>
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		<title>By: Donny D.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/02/08/30374/comment-page-1#comment-88789</link>
		<dc:creator>Donny D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Feb 2011 06:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=30374#comment-88789</guid>
		<description>In the second paragraph of my previous post, &quot;perfection good conceptualizations&quot; should read &quot;perfectly good conceptualizations&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the second paragraph of my previous post, &#8220;perfection good conceptualizations&#8221; should read &#8220;perfectly good conceptualizations&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Peron</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/02/08/30374/comment-page-1#comment-88783</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Peron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Feb 2011 02:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=30374#comment-88783</guid>
		<description>I also think Plato did a great disservice with his nonsense about the perfect being the way we identify something. To use the horse example, no one, not even the little girl in the illustration, could tell us precisely what would be a perfect horse. We recognize horses, not because off them semblance to the perfect horse, but because their semblance to the average horse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also think Plato did a great disservice with his nonsense about the perfect being the way we identify something. To use the horse example, no one, not even the little girl in the illustration, could tell us precisely what would be a perfect horse. We recognize horses, not because off them semblance to the perfect horse, but because their semblance to the average horse.</p>
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		<title>By: Amicus</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/02/08/30374/comment-page-1#comment-88777</link>
		<dc:creator>Amicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Feb 2011 23:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=30374#comment-88777</guid>
		<description>Désirée, in the best world, the goals all overlap and support each other.

Again, I encourage anyone who would engage to also read the amicus briefs from GGA filed to the appeals court for the Prio8 Trial.  It goes, I think, hand in hand with the Journal work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Désirée, in the best world, the goals all overlap and support each other.</p>
<p>Again, I encourage anyone who would engage to also read the amicus briefs from GGA filed to the appeals court for the Prio8 Trial.  It goes, I think, hand in hand with the Journal work.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Peron</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/02/08/30374/comment-page-1#comment-88770</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Peron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Feb 2011 20:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=30374#comment-88770</guid>
		<description>What irks me about these Catholic philosophers is that they sully natural law theory by pretending that &quot;natural law&quot; is really &quot;supernatural law of theology.&quot; The theologian Toreltsch was right when he said natural law as &quot;an alien element in Christianity.&quot; It did derive from Greek philosophy and was actually corrupted by pretending it was a version of supernatural law. In reality people like George advocate the complete opposite of natural law. 

For the morality is not discovered through the use of reason, but revealed through the use of revelation. Law is what God commands, not based on the nature of reality. And what is real is, at any moment, open to revision by God&#039;s commands. Trying to merge the oil of supernatural law with the water of natural law only discredits the latter by associating it with superstition and fantasy.  

A bit more on natural law as &quot;natural&quot; and not &quot;supernatural&quot; is here.

http://storeyinstitute.blogspot.com/2010/12/natural-law-theology-and-good.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What irks me about these Catholic philosophers is that they sully natural law theory by pretending that &#8220;natural law&#8221; is really &#8220;supernatural law of theology.&#8221; The theologian Toreltsch was right when he said natural law as &#8220;an alien element in Christianity.&#8221; It did derive from Greek philosophy and was actually corrupted by pretending it was a version of supernatural law. In reality people like George advocate the complete opposite of natural law. </p>
<p>For the morality is not discovered through the use of reason, but revealed through the use of revelation. Law is what God commands, not based on the nature of reality. And what is real is, at any moment, open to revision by God&#8217;s commands. Trying to merge the oil of supernatural law with the water of natural law only discredits the latter by associating it with superstition and fantasy.  </p>
<p>A bit more on natural law as &#8220;natural&#8221; and not &#8220;supernatural&#8221; is here.</p>
<p><a href="http://storeyinstitute.blogspot.com/2010/12/natural-law-theology-and-good.html" rel="nofollow">http://storeyinstitute.blogspot.com/2010/12/natural-law-theology-and-good.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: justsearching</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/02/08/30374/comment-page-1#comment-88764</link>
		<dc:creator>justsearching</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Feb 2011 18:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=30374#comment-88764</guid>
		<description>&quot;As for the notion that knowledge is recollection, it’s similar to the way some people interpret Jeremiah 31:33, &#039;I will put my law in their minds and write it in their hearts.&#039; In other words, we’re born with knowledge; we just have to claim it.&quot;

The verse is referring to law, not to knowledge. Most Jews would understand this verse to be talking about some future renewal of the covenant with Israel, and most Christians would say this verse concern the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. 

I don&#039;t think George believes we&#039;re born with knowledge that needs claimed. He does, as you point out, believe that we can use our God-given reason to discover morality.

I really enjoyed this intro. and look forward to the rest of the series.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;As for the notion that knowledge is recollection, it’s similar to the way some people interpret Jeremiah 31:33, &#8216;I will put my law in their minds and write it in their hearts.&#8217; In other words, we’re born with knowledge; we just have to claim it.&#8221;</p>
<p>The verse is referring to law, not to knowledge. Most Jews would understand this verse to be talking about some future renewal of the covenant with Israel, and most Christians would say this verse concern the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think George believes we&#8217;re born with knowledge that needs claimed. He does, as you point out, believe that we can use our God-given reason to discover morality.</p>
<p>I really enjoyed this intro. and look forward to the rest of the series.</p>
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		<title>By: Donny D.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/02/08/30374/comment-page-1#comment-88750</link>
		<dc:creator>Donny D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Feb 2011 15:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=30374#comment-88750</guid>
		<description>You know, I was actually kind of with him when George started getting into his idea of &quot;real marriage&quot;, the kind of relationship that would basically really BE a marriage whether or not the state acknowledges it, religion blesses it, friends and family celebrate it, or the couple think of it in any special way.  I do think that there is an innate human tendency to pair-bond, which operates within some general groups of behaviors that social psychologists, anthropologists and specialized historians are best able to articulate.  Not EVERY person has this tendency, but most do, to some degree, with varying degrees of permanence and &quot;fidelity&quot;.  Many of us have seen or heard of old gay men or lesbians who were a couple back as far as anyone can remember, well before there was any possibility of legal recognition.  &quot;Marrying&quot; is essentially what a substantial subgroup of people do, whatever the state of social institutions at the time.

My problem is with what George defined as &quot;real marriages&quot;.  His suspect claims to the contrary notwithstanding, I&#039;m sure many LGBT people talking about same sex marriage have come up with perfection good conceptualizations of the de facto reality of &quot;real marriage&quot; as straight, gay and trans people of all kinds actually live it.

But I also knew that with his phrasing, &quot;&#039;real&#039; marriage&quot;, he was gonna shut us out, because the belief of all anti-gay bigots is that gay relationships aren&#039;t &quot;real&quot; relationships, while straight ones somehow always are.  And this &quot;only a relationship where coitus goes on is a real marriage&quot; crap isn&#039;t new either.  I remember with the advent of the gay liberation movement the phobes actually argued that our sex wasn&#039;t real sex, that same sex couples weren&#039;t made to be together sexually, because we weren&#039;t physically complementary.  Yes, youngsters, those fools actually &lt;i&gt;said&lt;/i&gt; that.  We don&#039;t hear that anymore, because our sex is all too real to them now.  But I bring it up to show that George&#039;s coitus argument is yet another old, retreaded anti-gay argument.  These idiots truly never come up with anything new.

Which makes it easy to beat them, because all you have to do is wait as you listen or read for what you know is coming, and when it does you&#039;re already ready to jump on it and tear it apart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I was actually kind of with him when George started getting into his idea of &#8220;real marriage&#8221;, the kind of relationship that would basically really BE a marriage whether or not the state acknowledges it, religion blesses it, friends and family celebrate it, or the couple think of it in any special way.  I do think that there is an innate human tendency to pair-bond, which operates within some general groups of behaviors that social psychologists, anthropologists and specialized historians are best able to articulate.  Not EVERY person has this tendency, but most do, to some degree, with varying degrees of permanence and &#8220;fidelity&#8221;.  Many of us have seen or heard of old gay men or lesbians who were a couple back as far as anyone can remember, well before there was any possibility of legal recognition.  &#8220;Marrying&#8221; is essentially what a substantial subgroup of people do, whatever the state of social institutions at the time.</p>
<p>My problem is with what George defined as &#8220;real marriages&#8221;.  His suspect claims to the contrary notwithstanding, I&#8217;m sure many LGBT people talking about same sex marriage have come up with perfection good conceptualizations of the de facto reality of &#8220;real marriage&#8221; as straight, gay and trans people of all kinds actually live it.</p>
<p>But I also knew that with his phrasing, &#8220;&#8216;real&#8217; marriage&#8221;, he was gonna shut us out, because the belief of all anti-gay bigots is that gay relationships aren&#8217;t &#8220;real&#8221; relationships, while straight ones somehow always are.  And this &#8220;only a relationship where coitus goes on is a real marriage&#8221; crap isn&#8217;t new either.  I remember with the advent of the gay liberation movement the phobes actually argued that our sex wasn&#8217;t real sex, that same sex couples weren&#8217;t made to be together sexually, because we weren&#8217;t physically complementary.  Yes, youngsters, those fools actually <i>said</i> that.  We don&#8217;t hear that anymore, because our sex is all too real to them now.  But I bring it up to show that George&#8217;s coitus argument is yet another old, retreaded anti-gay argument.  These idiots truly never come up with anything new.</p>
<p>Which makes it easy to beat them, because all you have to do is wait as you listen or read for what you know is coming, and when it does you&#8217;re already ready to jump on it and tear it apart.</p>
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		<title>By: Désirée</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/02/08/30374/comment-page-1#comment-88747</link>
		<dc:creator>Désirée</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Feb 2011 15:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=30374#comment-88747</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t see it as prissy, it&#039;s actually a very good point. George et al. seem to consider their paper a work of philosophical heft.  This is what passes for intellectualism for them.  A legal refutation may be what gets web hits and is most needed now socially, but doesn&#039;t and can&#039;t really address the issues the paper raises.  It needs to be refuted philosophically using formal reason and logic.  Without this, they will dismiss any rebuttal and will do so using big intellectual words which will give the appearance of them &quot;winning&quot; by virtue of out-intellectualizing the other side.


[reads previous posts...]

and then of course, there are the non-intellectuals... how do these people find the brain power to use a computer?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t see it as prissy, it&#8217;s actually a very good point. George et al. seem to consider their paper a work of philosophical heft.  This is what passes for intellectualism for them.  A legal refutation may be what gets web hits and is most needed now socially, but doesn&#8217;t and can&#8217;t really address the issues the paper raises.  It needs to be refuted philosophically using formal reason and logic.  Without this, they will dismiss any rebuttal and will do so using big intellectual words which will give the appearance of them &#8220;winning&#8221; by virtue of out-intellectualizing the other side.</p>
<p>[reads previous posts...]</p>
<p>and then of course, there are the non-intellectuals&#8230; how do these people find the brain power to use a computer?</p>
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		<title>By: Amicus</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/02/08/30374/comment-page-1#comment-88743</link>
		<dc:creator>Amicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Feb 2011 14:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=30374#comment-88743</guid>
		<description>yeah, I don&#039;t like my last comment, which sounds/reads kida prissy.

I mean, everyone can do what they want, obviously! 

I was just trying to draw where the bullseye was, I guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yeah, I don&#8217;t like my last comment, which sounds/reads kida prissy.</p>
<p>I mean, everyone can do what they want, obviously! </p>
<p>I was just trying to draw where the bullseye was, I guess.</p>
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		<title>By: Amicus</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/02/08/30374/comment-page-1#comment-88737</link>
		<dc:creator>Amicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Feb 2011 14:24:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=30374#comment-88737</guid>
		<description>Before you go further, it is worthwhile to consider whether you are doing
1. Apologetics
2. Refutation (of an academic variety or otherwise)
3. Legal argument

Opinions could differ, but #3 is the most important, right now.

If the other two don&#039;t fit with #3, then the work is just going to end up on the next list of quotes from &quot;leading gay activists&quot;.

If you are going to do #1, stop and think through who your audience is.  I&#039;m sorry but &quot;general audience&quot; or &quot;everyman&quot; is probably not tailored enough, with few exceptions.

As for #2, if one &quot;wins&quot; this argument, who is going to notice, how and why?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before you go further, it is worthwhile to consider whether you are doing<br />
1. Apologetics<br />
2. Refutation (of an academic variety or otherwise)<br />
3. Legal argument</p>
<p>Opinions could differ, but #3 is the most important, right now.</p>
<p>If the other two don&#8217;t fit with #3, then the work is just going to end up on the next list of quotes from &#8220;leading gay activists&#8221;.</p>
<p>If you are going to do #1, stop and think through who your audience is.  I&#8217;m sorry but &#8220;general audience&#8221; or &#8220;everyman&#8221; is probably not tailored enough, with few exceptions.</p>
<p>As for #2, if one &#8220;wins&#8221; this argument, who is going to notice, how and why?</p>
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