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	<title>Comments on: When protesting for my rights, please try not to be incredibly stupid and counterproductive</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/01/31006</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Grover Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/01/31006/comment-page-3#comment-90247</link>
		<dc:creator>Grover Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2011 16:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31006#comment-90247</guid>
		<description>Pintuck,

Are you for real?  Do you see any logical inconsistency in supporting gender atypical sexual behaviors and denouncing gender atypical mannerisms, interests, and styles of dress?? Why do you think one gender atypical behavior is fine and others not?

Like all matters of taste, if something is not your cup of tea, don&#039;t sip from it. There is nothing morally wrong with not liking drag or socially steering clear from men with effeminate characteristics. Verbally abusing those with such tastes and habits, however, is morally wrong. As is discrimination against them in employment, housing, and other opportunities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pintuck,</p>
<p>Are you for real?  Do you see any logical inconsistency in supporting gender atypical sexual behaviors and denouncing gender atypical mannerisms, interests, and styles of dress?? Why do you think one gender atypical behavior is fine and others not?</p>
<p>Like all matters of taste, if something is not your cup of tea, don&#8217;t sip from it. There is nothing morally wrong with not liking drag or socially steering clear from men with effeminate characteristics. Verbally abusing those with such tastes and habits, however, is morally wrong. As is discrimination against them in employment, housing, and other opportunities.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/01/31006/comment-page-3#comment-90206</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Mar 2011 19:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31006#comment-90206</guid>
		<description>Pintuck there is no monolithic gay culture.  Gay culture is highly varied and means different things to different gays.

Pintuck said &quot;He thinks you are “no better” than a gay basher if you don’t like cross-dressing and acting like a girl.&quot;.

No, he said no such thing.  He said you are no better than a bigot if you seek to deny others the right to gender nonconformity - there&#039;s nothing wrong with you deciding that its not for you personally.

You&#039;re not helping your cause by lying about what people are saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pintuck there is no monolithic gay culture.  Gay culture is highly varied and means different things to different gays.</p>
<p>Pintuck said &#8220;He thinks you are “no better” than a gay basher if you don’t like cross-dressing and acting like a girl.&#8221;.</p>
<p>No, he said no such thing.  He said you are no better than a bigot if you seek to deny others the right to gender nonconformity &#8211; there&#8217;s nothing wrong with you deciding that its not for you personally.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re not helping your cause by lying about what people are saying.</p>
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		<title>By: Pintuck</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/01/31006/comment-page-3#comment-90203</link>
		<dc:creator>Pintuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Mar 2011 18:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31006#comment-90203</guid>
		<description>Grover&#039;s trotting out the gay culture POV again, writing this: &quot;Those gay persons who object to gender nonconformity on moral grounds are no better than the bigoted individuals who consider same-gender sexual behaviors as universally morally abhorrent.&quot;

Because being gay, to him, is all about cross-dressing and acting like a girl, he calls it &quot;gender nonconformity&quot;.  In other words, he&#039;s choosing not to &quot;conform&quot; to society&#039;s expectations about how a man should act.  If you&#039;re like most gay men, then you think that cross dressing and acting like a girl is gross, so there&#039;s nothing for you to &quot;conform&quot; to.  He frames cross-dressing and acting like a girl this way not only because he wants to cross-dress and act like a girl, but also because he wants to equate that with &quot;being gay&quot; as a whole and then force that view on all gay people.

He think you are garbage.  Read what he wrote!  He thinks you are &quot;no better&quot; than a gay basher if you don&#039;t like cross-dressing and acting like a girl.

It&#039;s time to stop paying attention to gay culture.  It&#039;s a weird cult.  It&#039;s practitioners call themselves &quot;queers&quot; because they want a &quot;separate but equal&quot; lifestyle for gay people.  They want to shame you into accepting it because they want an uninterrupted stream of &quot;chicken&quot; (gay culture jargon for young/underage men) pouring into their ghetto.  They promote drug abuse and ruin for gay people.

Gay culture sucks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grover&#8217;s trotting out the gay culture POV again, writing this: &#8220;Those gay persons who object to gender nonconformity on moral grounds are no better than the bigoted individuals who consider same-gender sexual behaviors as universally morally abhorrent.&#8221;</p>
<p>Because being gay, to him, is all about cross-dressing and acting like a girl, he calls it &#8220;gender nonconformity&#8221;.  In other words, he&#8217;s choosing not to &#8220;conform&#8221; to society&#8217;s expectations about how a man should act.  If you&#8217;re like most gay men, then you think that cross dressing and acting like a girl is gross, so there&#8217;s nothing for you to &#8220;conform&#8221; to.  He frames cross-dressing and acting like a girl this way not only because he wants to cross-dress and act like a girl, but also because he wants to equate that with &#8220;being gay&#8221; as a whole and then force that view on all gay people.</p>
<p>He think you are garbage.  Read what he wrote!  He thinks you are &#8220;no better&#8221; than a gay basher if you don&#8217;t like cross-dressing and acting like a girl.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s time to stop paying attention to gay culture.  It&#8217;s a weird cult.  It&#8217;s practitioners call themselves &#8220;queers&#8221; because they want a &#8220;separate but equal&#8221; lifestyle for gay people.  They want to shame you into accepting it because they want an uninterrupted stream of &#8220;chicken&#8221; (gay culture jargon for young/underage men) pouring into their ghetto.  They promote drug abuse and ruin for gay people.</p>
<p>Gay culture sucks!</p>
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		<title>By: Grover Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/01/31006/comment-page-3#comment-90151</link>
		<dc:creator>Grover Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Mar 2011 22:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31006#comment-90151</guid>
		<description>I wish it were easier for humans to distinguish style/taste from substance/morality. Manner of dress and sexual preference are matters of taste. As long direct harm is not a risk, matters of taste need to be left to individual perogative.  Those gay persons who object to gender nonconformity on moral grounds are no better than the bigoted individuals who consider same-gender sexual behaviors  as universally morally abhorrent.  Gender should not restrict individual freedoms no matter how gender atypical the behavior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish it were easier for humans to distinguish style/taste from substance/morality. Manner of dress and sexual preference are matters of taste. As long direct harm is not a risk, matters of taste need to be left to individual perogative.  Those gay persons who object to gender nonconformity on moral grounds are no better than the bigoted individuals who consider same-gender sexual behaviors  as universally morally abhorrent.  Gender should not restrict individual freedoms no matter how gender atypical the behavior.</p>
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		<title>By: DragCub</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/01/31006/comment-page-3#comment-90146</link>
		<dc:creator>DragCub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Mar 2011 20:34:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31006#comment-90146</guid>
		<description>I, for one, happen to believe that before we are able to win our rights, and possibly even MORE important than winnint just our rights, we need to attack the concept that only some people deserve rights.  That&#039;s the whole point of civil rights.

This article was written in the same voice of the folks who decided marriage was the most important right to worry about anyway; while marriage rights are important to some queer couples, the right to employment and housing should be important to ALL.  I&#039;ve seen a clear prioritizing of marriage, though, instead, because focusing on that &quot;proves something&quot;. 

As for stereotypes: no, we shouldn&#039;t support them, but they are equally damaging if we let them define what we don&#039;t do instead of what we do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I, for one, happen to believe that before we are able to win our rights, and possibly even MORE important than winnint just our rights, we need to attack the concept that only some people deserve rights.  That&#8217;s the whole point of civil rights.</p>
<p>This article was written in the same voice of the folks who decided marriage was the most important right to worry about anyway; while marriage rights are important to some queer couples, the right to employment and housing should be important to ALL.  I&#8217;ve seen a clear prioritizing of marriage, though, instead, because focusing on that &#8220;proves something&#8221;. </p>
<p>As for stereotypes: no, we shouldn&#8217;t support them, but they are equally damaging if we let them define what we don&#8217;t do instead of what we do.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/01/31006/comment-page-3#comment-90048</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Mar 2011 23:43:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31006#comment-90048</guid>
		<description>Pintuck said &quot;JR said it best: “And we shouldn’t be getting our rights by trying to “blend in” and become cookie cutter replicas of the rest of the damaged society we live in.” Do you honestly think he wants or cares about gay acceptance?&quot;.

Yes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pintuck said &#8220;JR said it best: “And we shouldn’t be getting our rights by trying to “blend in” and become cookie cutter replicas of the rest of the damaged society we live in.” Do you honestly think he wants or cares about gay acceptance?&#8221;.</p>
<p>Yes.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/01/31006/comment-page-3#comment-90047</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Mar 2011 23:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31006#comment-90047</guid>
		<description>I have no problem with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have no problem with that.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/01/31006/comment-page-3#comment-90046</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Mar 2011 23:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31006#comment-90046</guid>
		<description>Priya, okay.  Believe whatever you choose to believe (which is, as always, your right) and I&#039;ll continue stating my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Priya, okay.  Believe whatever you choose to believe (which is, as always, your right) and I&#8217;ll continue stating my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/01/31006/comment-page-2#comment-90044</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Mar 2011 23:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31006#comment-90044</guid>
		<description>Pintuck said &quot;“Since THEY will never accept us no matter what we do, we might as well make our most revolting sexual fetishes as aggressively public as possible!&quot;.

Oh, come on now, no one said any such thing.  Pretending when someone says some freedom is good that that means people want to take personal freedom to the most outlandish extremes possible doesn&#039;t do your case any good.  Please rein in the hyperbole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pintuck said &#8220;“Since THEY will never accept us no matter what we do, we might as well make our most revolting sexual fetishes as aggressively public as possible!&#8221;.</p>
<p>Oh, come on now, no one said any such thing.  Pretending when someone says some freedom is good that that means people want to take personal freedom to the most outlandish extremes possible doesn&#8217;t do your case any good.  Please rein in the hyperbole.</p>
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		<title>By: Pintuck</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/01/31006/comment-page-2#comment-90040</link>
		<dc:creator>Pintuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Mar 2011 22:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31006#comment-90040</guid>
		<description>Philip has trotted out that gay culture POV and nailed almost every talking point.  It&#039;s a concise case study.

Philip writes: &quot;Historical perspective: I came out 40 years ago, and this argument was already raging then: the assimilationist “good” gays vs. the non-conforming “embarrassing” gays. Probably will continue 40 years after I’m gone.&quot;


He uses the word &quot;assimilationist&quot; as an insult.  Is is the derogatory term that gay culture uses for gay acceptance.  He doesn&#039;t want gay acceptance.  He wants a &quot;separate but equal&quot; lifestyle for gays.


Phillip writes: &quot;The Right will never be happy with us, no matter how much we ape their lifestyle. Fukkim. We’re right.&quot;


This is THE gay culture argument.  It goes like this: &quot;Since THEY will never accept us no matter what we do, we might as well make our most revolting sexual fetishes as aggressively public as possible!  Fukkim!&quot;  Gay culture then equates those same sexual fetishes with &quot;gay liberation&quot;.


Philip writes: &quot;Oh, and before you complain about the glitter in someone’s eye, check your butt for that pesky 2×4 – it’s up there again, girlfriend.&quot;


The defining feature of gay culture is gender-bending.  (Not incidentally, this is precisely why they are tearing Timothy a new one: Timothy was attacking the heart, the sacred cow of gay culture: cross-dressing.)  That&#039;s why Phillip can&#039;t help himself but pepper his speech with things like &quot;girlfriend&quot;.  I can&#039;t make it more clear that this: he thinks being gay is about cross-dressing and acting like a girl.  It&#039;s not a stereotype, it&#039;s a culture.  Furthermore, Philip will likely accuse you of being &quot;internally homophobic&quot; or &quot;self-hating&quot; (another common abusive gay culture tactic) if you&#039;re uncomfortable with his gender-bending culture.  That&#039;s because, to him, being gay is all about cross-dressing and acting like a girl.  No, it&#039;s not &quot;who he is&quot;.  It&#039;s what he chooses to be.

The only thing Philip didn&#039;t say was to accuse his &quot;oppressors&quot; of being fat, fifty year old trolls who can no longer score in the dingy bar/backroom scene which likely comprises the vast majority of his social existence.


Why do we care what gay culture, the culture of ghettoized drug addicts, has to say about us gay people?  Is the unicorn of &quot;gay community&quot; really so vital to us that we must grudgingly admit that drag queens are &quot;us&quot; even though we tolerate drag queens in exactly the same sense that we tolerate a screaming child on a four-hour airplane flight?  Gay culture has no respect for us at all.  They think we&#039;re &quot;assimilationist&quot; trash!  It&#039;s time to ignore them and let them self-destruct in peace (and drugs).  Either that or respond with derision and ridicule.

Gay culture harms gay people.  Gay culture hates gay acceptance.  Gay culture sucks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philip has trotted out that gay culture POV and nailed almost every talking point.  It&#8217;s a concise case study.</p>
<p>Philip writes: &#8220;Historical perspective: I came out 40 years ago, and this argument was already raging then: the assimilationist “good” gays vs. the non-conforming “embarrassing” gays. Probably will continue 40 years after I’m gone.&#8221;</p>
<p>He uses the word &#8220;assimilationist&#8221; as an insult.  Is is the derogatory term that gay culture uses for gay acceptance.  He doesn&#8217;t want gay acceptance.  He wants a &#8220;separate but equal&#8221; lifestyle for gays.</p>
<p>Phillip writes: &#8220;The Right will never be happy with us, no matter how much we ape their lifestyle. Fukkim. We’re right.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is THE gay culture argument.  It goes like this: &#8220;Since THEY will never accept us no matter what we do, we might as well make our most revolting sexual fetishes as aggressively public as possible!  Fukkim!&#8221;  Gay culture then equates those same sexual fetishes with &#8220;gay liberation&#8221;.</p>
<p>Philip writes: &#8220;Oh, and before you complain about the glitter in someone’s eye, check your butt for that pesky 2×4 – it’s up there again, girlfriend.&#8221;</p>
<p>The defining feature of gay culture is gender-bending.  (Not incidentally, this is precisely why they are tearing Timothy a new one: Timothy was attacking the heart, the sacred cow of gay culture: cross-dressing.)  That&#8217;s why Phillip can&#8217;t help himself but pepper his speech with things like &#8220;girlfriend&#8221;.  I can&#8217;t make it more clear that this: he thinks being gay is about cross-dressing and acting like a girl.  It&#8217;s not a stereotype, it&#8217;s a culture.  Furthermore, Philip will likely accuse you of being &#8220;internally homophobic&#8221; or &#8220;self-hating&#8221; (another common abusive gay culture tactic) if you&#8217;re uncomfortable with his gender-bending culture.  That&#8217;s because, to him, being gay is all about cross-dressing and acting like a girl.  No, it&#8217;s not &#8220;who he is&#8221;.  It&#8217;s what he chooses to be.</p>
<p>The only thing Philip didn&#8217;t say was to accuse his &#8220;oppressors&#8221; of being fat, fifty year old trolls who can no longer score in the dingy bar/backroom scene which likely comprises the vast majority of his social existence.</p>
<p>Why do we care what gay culture, the culture of ghettoized drug addicts, has to say about us gay people?  Is the unicorn of &#8220;gay community&#8221; really so vital to us that we must grudgingly admit that drag queens are &#8220;us&#8221; even though we tolerate drag queens in exactly the same sense that we tolerate a screaming child on a four-hour airplane flight?  Gay culture has no respect for us at all.  They think we&#8217;re &#8220;assimilationist&#8221; trash!  It&#8217;s time to ignore them and let them self-destruct in peace (and drugs).  Either that or respond with derision and ridicule.</p>
<p>Gay culture harms gay people.  Gay culture hates gay acceptance.  Gay culture sucks!</p>
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