Just yesterday I was talking to a very close family member, and asked if she was following the news out of Japan. She said, “Yes, it’s so terrible. But the Bible tells all about how we will have terrible earthquakes in the end-times. It’s all right there in the Bible.” I suspect I know what you’re thinking. Don’t ask.

A quibble: there’s a distinction between “God zapped them Japanese cuz they’s heathens” and “it’s a sign of the end times.” One sees the earthquake as a form of punishment to a specific people with the other sees it as a “sign” (along with other disasters) that the days of Revelation are finally here (after 2,000 years of such signs).

Chris

If mainstream Muslims in the US are expected to denounce the lunatic, fringe fundamentalist Muslims, why is it that mainstream Christians are not expected to do the same to these lunatic, fringe fundamentalist Christians?

Probably because they don’t feel like they have to. Christians still hold the position of majority so they assume that everyone already knows that there are crazy Christians and sane ones. Their neighbors aren’t suspicious or need reassurances.

That may be an attitude that bites them in the butt.

Why does fundamentalist Christianity get a free, unopposed ride?

Probably because they are “part of the family.” And while they can be embarrassing, it feels like betrayal to join ranks with non-Christians to denounce crazy Uncle Pat and his televised insanity.

I do see change, however. I see more and more Christian leaders seeing ‘justice and mercy’ towards gay people to be a mandatory part of the practice of their faith. I see it not only in the NorthEast but in cities in the South where a Methodist or Presbyterian minister will (and of course UCC and UU – and sometimes even Baptist or Catholic) be down at city hall lecturing the council that they need to protect their gay citizens.

Yeah there aren’t a lot of televangelists or megachurches on our side (though some are clearly wanting to avoid being hurtful) but local pastors are starting to be really visible.

Many of them were already quietly with us. But I give credit to the loons, specifically Fred Phelps, for their newfound activism.

It was Phelps’ “God Hates Fags” protests that made these people consider their public position. When Fred came to town, some churches started coming out to counter-protest. They started with a bit of self-preservation and defense of the faith with “God doesn’t hate anyone” but in the process they started seeing how badly the church treats gay folk and recognized their need to change the dynamic.

We do not have the support of “most Christians”, at least not theologically. And, in many areas, not culturally or politically.

But we have, I believe, turned the tipping point. Not only is it predictable that culture and society will become more inclusive and equal, but so will most of American Christendom. And, as Albert Mohler has observed, that day is very soon.

Christianity has on its side: the Crusades, the 15th and 16th-century wars of religion, the Inquisition, the auto-da-fe, the killings or atheists, gays, and other minority groups, institutionalized misogyny and homophobia, attempts to excise natural human behaviors from life, racial intolerance…I could go on. Pure and simple, hundreds of years worth of blood. So yes, it has a lot to answer for.

The gay community, not so much.

I did reconsider “It really says something about Christianity” here. I considered your request and found it has merit. But I stand by my reconsideration which you already rejected.

The fact is, I can yammer on all day about how aweful some people are representing a faith that millions (billions) share but find those representations abhorrent. But until major figures who do find those abhorrent speak up, the crazies will effectively define Christianity in the minds of those who aren’t are are no longer adherants. The “brand,” as it were, is damamged. It’s up to Christians to rescue it, not me.

Hear Hear.

Based on my experience as a (former) Christian, I would say that all of the criticisms presented here are perfectly valid. I for one got so tired of the idiotic sort of pronouncements posted above (not to mention the idiots making them) that it was better for my sanity to just leave Christianity and continue my opposition to the BS from the outside.

You know what? If you argue against this kind of crap AS a Christian you get damned little help from most other Christians.

It’s actually been my experience that Fundamentalist and Pentecostal Christians usually take the opposition being diplomatic and especially “being nice” or reconsidering what you said as license to continue as they are…if not as a tacit endorsement of what they are saying.

It has been my experience that all these people understand is when you are nasty in return AND force them to consider the implications of what they said AND hit them on something that has meaning to them personally.

They shit all over people and it takes a verbal (and occasionally even literal) slap and then sticking their nose in what they just did to get them to shut up, let alone consider that what they are doing may be wrong.

So I for one will urge Mr. Burroway (among others) NOT to reconsider a damn thing. I’ve seen too damn few people openly speak out against this sort of nonsense over the years.

“And really, who is going to challenge the false assumption that fundamentalists = all Christians if it isn’t other Christians?”

But Mr. Burroway wrote

“It really says something about Christianity”

What you’re defending is nice, in theory, but it’s not what he wrote. I’m asking him to reconsider what he wrote.

Okay, it isn’t necessarily fair to blame some members of a diverse group for the actions and attitudes of others. But there are a couple problems with that here. One is that anti-gay Christians have just been an awful lot louder than those who aren’t. And there’s a mentality among many Christians of not being willing to speak out publicly, at least to “the world” (the rest of us), against other Christians. So there’s a “good ones protecting the bad ones with their silence” dynamic going on here. But also, a lot of non-bigoted Christians don’t consider it Christian to be loudmouthed about the faith and to brawl in the gutter like so much of the Christian Right does.

A part of this problem is also the nature of expression typical of one, usually anti-gay, group of Christians. Protestant fundamentalists very commonly begin explanations of their beliefs with “Christians believe….” The reason they do this, of course, is that they’ve already written everyone who isn’t a fundamentalist out of Christianity.

So if a Gen X or Y kid finds her/himself watching the 700 Club or some other fundie religious right crap, and s/he has no personal experience of Christian community or worship, how is s/he supposed to know that the fundamentalists are hugely begging the question when their utterances implicitly contain the assumption that people like them are the only Christians? Other Christians know that that implicit assumption is an act of ideological aggression, but how is our young person supposed to know that?

To be honest I don’t have a lot of respect for those young people who say “I don’t like Christians because” they supposedly all believe some obviously fundamentalist bigotry. They just sound moronic to me. However, can you blame them? They are being set upon by an unscrupulous, aggressive force with a great deal of media behind it. And really, who is going to challenge the false assumption that fundamentalists = all Christians if it isn’t other Christians?

Is Marx or Stalin, or Mao the final word on communism?

To be honest you’re being naif. We judge according to what we hear if we can’t take the time to incestigate ourselves. And in cases like this, what is being said IS true (from a certain point of view) so you can’t just discard it.

Finally, experience of, in this case, Xianity, does tend to validate this sort of statement as being a significant thread of that faith – nasty, self-righteous, wallowing in the tragedy of others to promote itself.

“It really says something about Christianity”

as you did. You can choose not to respond in bad faith.

Dan Savage likes to take the latest Shocking Story about the most recent horrible thing that someone professing to be a Christian said, and then slap the bumper-sticker “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians” Gandhi quote on the end. Now I like Dan Savage, I think he does a lot of great stuff. But he has the option, as do you, of not responding to horrible statements with self-righteousness. You can do better!

The examples I cite here, on the other hand, are so accessible a third grader can understand what they are saying. Not only that, but a third grader ought to be able to recognize that these people are crazy, and will be more willing to say so — apparently more so than their elders.