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	<title>Comments on: DOMA As A Wedge Issue, Ctd</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/18/31431/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/18/31431</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/18/31431/comment-page-1#comment-91539</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31431#comment-91539</guid>
		<description>Well, perhaps I&#039;m more in tune to it being both bisexual and transgender, but everytime I&#039;ve heard someone complaining about too many letters they&#039;ve always followed it up with the angry insistence that bisexuals and/or transpeople should be excluded and are messing it up for the righteous gays and lesbians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, perhaps I&#8217;m more in tune to it being both bisexual and transgender, but everytime I&#8217;ve heard someone complaining about too many letters they&#8217;ve always followed it up with the angry insistence that bisexuals and/or transpeople should be excluded and are messing it up for the righteous gays and lesbians.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/18/31431/comment-page-1#comment-91536</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 18:25:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31431#comment-91536</guid>
		<description>Priya,

Most of the complaints appear to me to be of additional letters - I don&#039;t hear much complaint about LGBT.  But to the extent that it exists, you may be correct that it is an objection to including bisexual or transgender people.  
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Priya,</p>
<p>Most of the complaints appear to me to be of additional letters &#8211; I don&#8217;t hear much complaint about LGBT.  But to the extent that it exists, you may be correct that it is an objection to including bisexual or transgender people.  </p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/18/31431/comment-page-1#comment-91509</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 02:36:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31431#comment-91509</guid>
		<description>You&#039;ll practically never see those letters beyond LGBT come up unless someone is trying to claim there are too many letters, as is the case here.  They&#039;ll then try to use that non-issue to suggest that means transgender people and/or bisexuals should be excluded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ll practically never see those letters beyond LGBT come up unless someone is trying to claim there are too many letters, as is the case here.  They&#8217;ll then try to use that non-issue to suggest that means transgender people and/or bisexuals should be excluded.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/18/31431/comment-page-1#comment-91508</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 02:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31431#comment-91508</guid>
		<description>Timothy, I&#039;ve seen many examples of the infighting being caused by people who want to exclude trans people or bisexuals (or both).  I&#039;m thinking at this moment specifically of &quot;enough already&quot; who hypocritically can often be heard berating people for the infighting but who himself makes a big deal out of how bisexuals or trans people (I can&#039;t remember which one) shouldn&#039;t be allowed to be part of the community.

For the most part the argument is about LGBT, not any other letters, some people just like to bitch about the other letters to pretend that is a real problem that is getting out of control when in fact those other letters rarely come up.  I may not use any of those other letters, but I certainly wouldn&#039;t argue like &quot;enough&quot; or many other gays that they should be angrily excluded from the gay (LGBT) community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy, I&#8217;ve seen many examples of the infighting being caused by people who want to exclude trans people or bisexuals (or both).  I&#8217;m thinking at this moment specifically of &#8220;enough already&#8221; who hypocritically can often be heard berating people for the infighting but who himself makes a big deal out of how bisexuals or trans people (I can&#8217;t remember which one) shouldn&#8217;t be allowed to be part of the community.</p>
<p>For the most part the argument is about LGBT, not any other letters, some people just like to bitch about the other letters to pretend that is a real problem that is getting out of control when in fact those other letters rarely come up.  I may not use any of those other letters, but I certainly wouldn&#8217;t argue like &#8220;enough&#8221; or many other gays that they should be angrily excluded from the gay (LGBT) community.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/18/31431/comment-page-1#comment-91499</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Mar 2011 22:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31431#comment-91499</guid>
		<description>Priya,

I don&#039;t think it&#039;s as cut and dried as gays who don&#039;t want to use LGBTQQAI as an identity are causing infighting because they want to exclude transgender people and bisexuals.  

They didn&#039;t start the fight and should not shoulder the blame for not wishing to have an ever-fluid nomenclature.  (It may be &lt;i&gt;honest&lt;/i&gt; but it isn&#039;t exactly &lt;i&gt;reasonable&lt;/i&gt; to say, &quot;well there wouldn&#039;t be any infighting if you would just do exactly what I tell you to do.&quot;)  Nor should we assume malice on the part of those who are saying, &quot;enough already, no more letters.&quot;  

For me, I avoid the growing alphabet list because I think it is pointless and silly.  It&#039;s a nonsensical effort to offer an emotional &quot;inclusion&quot; that has no meaning whatsoever.  

Think about it.

We&#039;ve been told that we must include a &quot;Q&quot; for &quot;questioning&quot;.  But what does it mean?  

What are the laws that we need to change that impact the questioning?  Should questioning people have employment discrimination protection that is not currently being covered by laws based on sexual orientation?  

&lt;em&gt;(&quot;I&#039;m sorry ma&#039;am, but if you were either gay or straight we could not fire you based on that alone.  But because you are &quot;questioning&quot; we see that as an indication of your inability to make decisions and YOU&#039;RE FIRED!&quot;)&lt;/em&gt;

Oh, it doesn&#039;t hurt anybody to be aware of questioning folk and making someone feel included may be the right thing to do.  So I&#039;m all for &quot;lets have a great big welcome to those here today that are questioning&quot;.

But to insist that we all identify as the LGBTQ community, change the language of our political endeavors, and champion the cause of the questioning (whatever that might be) or else we are all bigots is utter nonsense.  It becomes even more nonsense as other &quot;identities&quot; demand a letter of their own (let&#039;s add a P for pre-gay, those kids who, well, we all know which team they are gunna play on).

You are right that there are those who don&#039;t wish to let trans people or bisexuals &quot;join&quot; our community (umm, hello? they were there before you came along, chucky).    That&#039;s a discussion worth having.

But that isn&#039;t what we are talking about here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Priya,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s as cut and dried as gays who don&#8217;t want to use LGBTQQAI as an identity are causing infighting because they want to exclude transgender people and bisexuals.  </p>
<p>They didn&#8217;t start the fight and should not shoulder the blame for not wishing to have an ever-fluid nomenclature.  (It may be <i>honest</i> but it isn&#8217;t exactly <i>reasonable</i> to say, &#8220;well there wouldn&#8217;t be any infighting if you would just do exactly what I tell you to do.&#8221;)  Nor should we assume malice on the part of those who are saying, &#8220;enough already, no more letters.&#8221;  </p>
<p>For me, I avoid the growing alphabet list because I think it is pointless and silly.  It&#8217;s a nonsensical effort to offer an emotional &#8220;inclusion&#8221; that has no meaning whatsoever.  </p>
<p>Think about it.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve been told that we must include a &#8220;Q&#8221; for &#8220;questioning&#8221;.  But what does it mean?  </p>
<p>What are the laws that we need to change that impact the questioning?  Should questioning people have employment discrimination protection that is not currently being covered by laws based on sexual orientation?  </p>
<p><em>(&#8220;I&#8217;m sorry ma&#8217;am, but if you were either gay or straight we could not fire you based on that alone.  But because you are &#8220;questioning&#8221; we see that as an indication of your inability to make decisions and YOU&#8217;RE FIRED!&#8221;)</em></p>
<p>Oh, it doesn&#8217;t hurt anybody to be aware of questioning folk and making someone feel included may be the right thing to do.  So I&#8217;m all for &#8220;lets have a great big welcome to those here today that are questioning&#8221;.</p>
<p>But to insist that we all identify as the LGBTQ community, change the language of our political endeavors, and champion the cause of the questioning (whatever that might be) or else we are all bigots is utter nonsense.  It becomes even more nonsense as other &#8220;identities&#8221; demand a letter of their own (let&#8217;s add a P for pre-gay, those kids who, well, we all know which team they are gunna play on).</p>
<p>You are right that there are those who don&#8217;t wish to let trans people or bisexuals &#8220;join&#8221; our community (umm, hello? they were there before you came along, chucky).    That&#8217;s a discussion worth having.</p>
<p>But that isn&#8217;t what we are talking about here.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/18/31431/comment-page-1#comment-91490</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Mar 2011 15:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31431#comment-91490</guid>
		<description>Jonathon, the infighting is over the alphabet soup is with  those who wish to exclude transgender people and/or bisexuals and have just a gay/lesbian community.  I.E. to have a LG rather than an LGBT.  As a group that knows what it is to be excluded, those lesbians and gays who want to exclude transgender people and bisexuals ought to know better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathon, the infighting is over the alphabet soup is with  those who wish to exclude transgender people and/or bisexuals and have just a gay/lesbian community.  I.E. to have a LG rather than an LGBT.  As a group that knows what it is to be excluded, those lesbians and gays who want to exclude transgender people and bisexuals ought to know better.</p>
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		<title>By: Amicus</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/18/31431/comment-page-1#comment-91471</link>
		<dc:creator>Amicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Mar 2011 20:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31431#comment-91471</guid>
		<description>@Theo

A candidate for a self-interest argument?

Divorce.

Gay marriage is just the first step on the path to making it impossible for you to go to city hall to get a divorce.

This fits with the let-me-tell-you-something-about-them-that-you-don&#039;t-know category.  Did you know that one of the Witherspoon &quot;10 Principles&quot; is about divorce?  ...

The kids (with care).

They are going to start forcing your kids to learn religious doctrines in school, none of them approved by you.  Once we stop teaching about facts of life, like gays, then we can start teaching anything.  

It&#039;s about transferring power from the people to the pulpit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Theo</p>
<p>A candidate for a self-interest argument?</p>
<p>Divorce.</p>
<p>Gay marriage is just the first step on the path to making it impossible for you to go to city hall to get a divorce.</p>
<p>This fits with the let-me-tell-you-something-about-them-that-you-don&#8217;t-know category.  Did you know that one of the Witherspoon &#8220;10 Principles&#8221; is about divorce?  &#8230;</p>
<p>The kids (with care).</p>
<p>They are going to start forcing your kids to learn religious doctrines in school, none of them approved by you.  Once we stop teaching about facts of life, like gays, then we can start teaching anything.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s about transferring power from the people to the pulpit.</p>
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		<title>By: johnathan</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/18/31431/comment-page-1#comment-91351</link>
		<dc:creator>johnathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Mar 2011 06:51:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31431#comment-91351</guid>
		<description>P.S. Please correct/add to the alphabet. I am positive I missed and messed up.
T = transgender; T = transsexual, I = intrasexual(?), I = intersex, Q = queer, Q = questioning, A = androgynous, A = ally, S = straight

I also forgot the letters for pansexual, gender queer, transfag, cisgender, tryke, omnisexual, non-monosexual, gender non-conforming, gender outlaw, and genderfluid. I guess, to respect everyone, would it then be:

GLBTTIIQQAASPGTCTONGGG? How do we pronounce ourselves?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. Please correct/add to the alphabet. I am positive I missed and messed up.<br />
T = transgender; T = transsexual, I = intrasexual(?), I = intersex, Q = queer, Q = questioning, A = androgynous, A = ally, S = straight</p>
<p>I also forgot the letters for pansexual, gender queer, transfag, cisgender, tryke, omnisexual, non-monosexual, gender non-conforming, gender outlaw, and genderfluid. I guess, to respect everyone, would it then be:</p>
<p>GLBTTIIQQAASPGTCTONGGG? How do we pronounce ourselves?</p>
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		<title>By: johnathan</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/18/31431/comment-page-1#comment-91350</link>
		<dc:creator>johnathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Mar 2011 06:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31431#comment-91350</guid>
		<description>About this &quot;alphabet soup&quot;: I am sure that many on this forum are familiar with the idea that [some of] those people who have power use various minority groups to fight with other minority groups (i.e., in fighting, to take away the minority groups&#039; collective power. I often wonder whether the GLBT/GLBTT/GLBTTI/GLBTTIQ/GLBTTQII/GLBTTQQIIAS(?) debate merely takes the power away from our community to fight against the larger issues of oppression that have been levied against us by the controlling majority/majorities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About this &#8220;alphabet soup&#8221;: I am sure that many on this forum are familiar with the idea that [some of] those people who have power use various minority groups to fight with other minority groups (i.e., in fighting, to take away the minority groups&#8217; collective power. I often wonder whether the GLBT/GLBTT/GLBTTI/GLBTTIQ/GLBTTQII/GLBTTQQIIAS(?) debate merely takes the power away from our community to fight against the larger issues of oppression that have been levied against us by the controlling majority/majorities.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/03/18/31431/comment-page-1#comment-91304</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Mar 2011 14:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=31431#comment-91304</guid>
		<description>Once again Theo, if its trivial to you, &quot;a joke&quot;, then there&#039;s no reason for you not to use it for the benefit of the people its important to to achieve harmony.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again Theo, if its trivial to you, &#8220;a joke&#8221;, then there&#8217;s no reason for you not to use it for the benefit of the people its important to to achieve harmony.</p>
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