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	<title>Comments on: The false marriage choice</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/06/16/34292</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/06/16/34292/comment-page-1#comment-96367</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=34292#comment-96367</guid>
		<description>Oh, Throbert, you silly boy, this essay isn&#039;t about envy, good or bad.  It&#039;s about how Maggie and crew have presented a false choice.  

Ya know, sometimes its better to respond to what is written rather than to what you imagine is there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, Throbert, you silly boy, this essay isn&#8217;t about envy, good or bad.  It&#8217;s about how Maggie and crew have presented a false choice.  </p>
<p>Ya know, sometimes its better to respond to what is written rather than to what you imagine is there.</p>
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		<title>By: Allen</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/06/16/34292/comment-page-1#comment-96352</link>
		<dc:creator>Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2011 13:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=34292#comment-96352</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;[P]eople are coming to realize that they’ve been sold on a false dream. They look around and see that things have gotten worse instead of better for the “traditional family” since they voted to ban gay marriage.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I wish I could believe it&#039;s that simple. Yes, polls show increasing support for same-sex marriage, but that doesn&#039;t mean that a majority of voters won&#039;t, once they get in the voting booth, have doubts that make them vote &quot;against&quot; instead of &quot;for&quot;. 

And most heterosexual voters won&#039;t see the choice between allowing or denying same sex marriage as being analogous to the choice Joey&#039;s dad offers. They don&#039;t see the harm their opposition to same-sex marriage does because, I believe, most of them don&#039;t really care enough about the issue to give it serious thought, so they&#039;re easily swayed by the &quot;we&#039;ve always done it this way&quot; argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>[P]eople are coming to realize that they’ve been sold on a false dream. They look around and see that things have gotten worse instead of better for the “traditional family” since they voted to ban gay marriage.</p></blockquote>
<p>I wish I could believe it&#8217;s that simple. Yes, polls show increasing support for same-sex marriage, but that doesn&#8217;t mean that a majority of voters won&#8217;t, once they get in the voting booth, have doubts that make them vote &#8220;against&#8221; instead of &#8220;for&#8221;. </p>
<p>And most heterosexual voters won&#8217;t see the choice between allowing or denying same sex marriage as being analogous to the choice Joey&#8217;s dad offers. They don&#8217;t see the harm their opposition to same-sex marriage does because, I believe, most of them don&#8217;t really care enough about the issue to give it serious thought, so they&#8217;re easily swayed by the &#8220;we&#8217;ve always done it this way&#8221; argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/06/16/34292/comment-page-1#comment-96351</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2011 13:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=34292#comment-96351</guid>
		<description>Throbert, you&#039;re misreading the post.  There&#039;s no evidence in it that Timothy Kincaid wishes ill for any families, straight or gay, and nothing remotely resembling a celebration at the misfortunes of others.  Tocqueville quotes are nice, but they&#039;re nicer in context, when they can be said to have some kind of relationship to the matter being discussed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Throbert, you&#8217;re misreading the post.  There&#8217;s no evidence in it that Timothy Kincaid wishes ill for any families, straight or gay, and nothing remotely resembling a celebration at the misfortunes of others.  Tocqueville quotes are nice, but they&#8217;re nicer in context, when they can be said to have some kind of relationship to the matter being discussed.</p>
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		<title>By: Throbert McGee</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/06/16/34292/comment-page-1#comment-96340</link>
		<dc:creator>Throbert McGee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2011 04:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=34292#comment-96340</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;How odd... no one here resorted to “triumphant declarations of what a fraud and a failure heterosexual marriage is.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&quot;The swing-set may be broken and there may be poop in the catbox&quot; and &quot;things have gotten worse for the traditional family&quot; and &quot;Brian and Maggie are horrible lying parents&quot; all seem to me far more an expression of negative envy tainted with &lt;i&gt;Schadenfreude&lt;/i&gt; than of positive envy that yearns for more happiness and prosperity for oneself.

In cultures that had the concept of the &quot;Evil Eye&quot;, this is precisely what the &quot;Evil Eye&quot; was: a positive &quot;I wish I had two fat cows like my fortunate neighbor&quot; type of envy that had rotted into a perversely negative &quot;I wish my neighbor&#039;s two fat cows would die&quot; envy -- and then taken on a magical and destructive life of its own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>How odd&#8230; no one here resorted to “triumphant declarations of what a fraud and a failure heterosexual marriage is.”</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8220;The swing-set may be broken and there may be poop in the catbox&#8221; and &#8220;things have gotten worse for the traditional family&#8221; and &#8220;Brian and Maggie are horrible lying parents&#8221; all seem to me far more an expression of negative envy tainted with <i>Schadenfreude</i> than of positive envy that yearns for more happiness and prosperity for oneself.</p>
<p>In cultures that had the concept of the &#8220;Evil Eye&#8221;, this is precisely what the &#8220;Evil Eye&#8221; was: a positive &#8220;I wish I had two fat cows like my fortunate neighbor&#8221; type of envy that had rotted into a perversely negative &#8220;I wish my neighbor&#8217;s two fat cows would die&#8221; envy &#8212; and then taken on a magical and destructive life of its own.</p>
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		<title>By: Regan DuCasse</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/06/16/34292/comment-page-1#comment-96335</link>
		<dc:creator>Regan DuCasse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2011 02:34:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=34292#comment-96335</guid>
		<description>I did post on NOM&#039;s blog and asked their supporters why BB and MG are taking their money, traveling all over the country, staying in hotels and getting themselves all over the media to pretty much advocate for laws that aren&#039;t saving marriages, or families or children. The symbolism of one man and one woman, and their compatibility is belied by the history of women as property, their public subjugation outside of marriage and the high rates of child abandonment and divorce.
 Saying it&#039;s between one man and one woman, doesn&#039;t make it true. So what are they paying BB and MG to DO?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did post on NOM&#8217;s blog and asked their supporters why BB and MG are taking their money, traveling all over the country, staying in hotels and getting themselves all over the media to pretty much advocate for laws that aren&#8217;t saving marriages, or families or children. The symbolism of one man and one woman, and their compatibility is belied by the history of women as property, their public subjugation outside of marriage and the high rates of child abandonment and divorce.<br />
 Saying it&#8217;s between one man and one woman, doesn&#8217;t make it true. So what are they paying BB and MG to DO?</p>
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		<title>By: R</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/06/16/34292/comment-page-1#comment-96333</link>
		<dc:creator>R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2011 02:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=34292#comment-96333</guid>
		<description>&gt;Wow Timothy, way to take Father’s Day week to shit all over fathers to make a point.

He didn&#039;t. He said that fathers who are in intact families are more involved with their children.

&gt;You’re making important points but it’s awfully insensitive to this week to make your “bad dad” analogy.

I don&#039;t know how you can get that. The father is a near universally recognized analogy for an authority figure. Mothers are expected to be nurturers, not as much all-powerful authority figures. 

Why are you so sensitive about all references to fathers being completely respectful and singing of their praises?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;Wow Timothy, way to take Father’s Day week to shit all over fathers to make a point.</p>
<p>He didn&#8217;t. He said that fathers who are in intact families are more involved with their children.</p>
<p>&gt;You’re making important points but it’s awfully insensitive to this week to make your “bad dad” analogy.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how you can get that. The father is a near universally recognized analogy for an authority figure. Mothers are expected to be nurturers, not as much all-powerful authority figures. </p>
<p>Why are you so sensitive about all references to fathers being completely respectful and singing of their praises?</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/06/16/34292/comment-page-1#comment-96325</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2011 01:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=34292#comment-96325</guid>
		<description>How odd... no one here resorted to &quot;triumphant declarations of what a fraud and a failure heterosexual marriage is.&quot;

Wait, let me look again...

Nope, no one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How odd&#8230; no one here resorted to &#8220;triumphant declarations of what a fraud and a failure heterosexual marriage is.&#8221;</p>
<p>Wait, let me look again&#8230;</p>
<p>Nope, no one.</p>
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		<title>By: Throbert McGee</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/06/16/34292/comment-page-1#comment-96323</link>
		<dc:creator>Throbert McGee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2011 01:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=34292#comment-96323</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Égalité&lt;/i&gt; is a slogan based on envy. It signifies in the minds of those who chant it, &quot;No one shall occupy a place higher than &lt;b&gt;mine&lt;/b&gt;!&quot;
&lt;i&gt;--Alexis de Tocqueville&lt;/i&gt;

&quot;No, you stupid Magic Fish,&quot; shouted the peasant with annoyance. &quot;I don&#039;t want to wish for a &lt;b&gt;second&lt;/b&gt; cow; I just wish that my neighbor&#039;s cows would &lt;b&gt;die&lt;/b&gt;!&quot;
&lt;i&gt;--old Russian joke and aphorism&lt;/i&gt;

When partisans for same-sex marriage resort to triumphant declarations of what a &lt;b&gt;fraud and a failure&lt;/b&gt; heterosexual marriage is, they simply confirm the wisdom of the above quotations, IMHO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Égalité</i> is a slogan based on envy. It signifies in the minds of those who chant it, &#8220;No one shall occupy a place higher than <b>mine</b>!&#8221;<br />
<i>&#8211;Alexis de Tocqueville</i></p>
<p>&#8220;No, you stupid Magic Fish,&#8221; shouted the peasant with annoyance. &#8220;I don&#8217;t want to wish for a <b>second</b> cow; I just wish that my neighbor&#8217;s cows would <b>die</b>!&#8221;<br />
<i>&#8211;old Russian joke and aphorism</i></p>
<p>When partisans for same-sex marriage resort to triumphant declarations of what a <b>fraud and a failure</b> heterosexual marriage is, they simply confirm the wisdom of the above quotations, IMHO.</p>
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		<title>By: TampaZeke</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/06/16/34292/comment-page-1#comment-96319</link>
		<dc:creator>TampaZeke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=34292#comment-96319</guid>
		<description>Wow Timothy, way to take Father&#039;s Day week to shit all over fathers to make a point.  You&#039;re making important points but it&#039;s awfully insensitive to this week to make your &quot;bad dad&quot; analogy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow Timothy, way to take Father&#8217;s Day week to shit all over fathers to make a point.  You&#8217;re making important points but it&#8217;s awfully insensitive to this week to make your &#8220;bad dad&#8221; analogy.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/06/16/34292/comment-page-1#comment-96317</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=34292#comment-96317</guid>
		<description>Thanks for writing this.  Very well done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for writing this.  Very well done.</p>
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