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	<title>Comments on: The social obligations of inclusion</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/07/13/35068</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Donny D.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/07/13/35068/comment-page-1#comment-98488</link>
		<dc:creator>Donny D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2011 07:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=35068#comment-98488</guid>
		<description>And in regard to corporations being more comfortable with married people in certain roles:  Isn&#039;t discrimination on the basis of marital status illegal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And in regard to corporations being more comfortable with married people in certain roles:  Isn&#8217;t discrimination on the basis of marital status illegal?</p>
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		<title>By: Donny D.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/07/13/35068/comment-page-1#comment-98444</link>
		<dc:creator>Donny D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=35068#comment-98444</guid>
		<description>What we get with gay marriage is marriage as an OPTION.  Just as not all straight people choose to marry, not all of us will.  In fact, a great many will choose NOT to marry, for a number of different reasons.

Those who marry do not define the straight community, and those who choose to marry homosexually will never define the LGBT community.  Community-wide irresponsible bachelorhood vs. responsible marriedness is a false dichotomy.

One of the truly loathesome things about the straight community are its myriad punitive, derogatory, strait-jacketing rules.  If you are older than a certain age, unmarried and female, you&#039;re an &quot;old maid&quot;, you&#039;re &quot;sad&quot;, &quot;alone&quot;, you never get laid.  If you are older than a certain age and you&#039;re a man, you&#039;re either a &quot;dirty old man&quot;, or you&#039;re &quot;weird&quot;, or you&#039;re &quot;sad&quot; and &quot;alone&quot;, or &quot;suspicious&quot; (possibly gay).  There&#039;s nothing good to be said about older straight people who are unmarried, and the best thing said about them is that they are &quot;unfortunate&quot;.

Those things are not foregone cultural conclusions for lesbians or gay men who are older.  I for one do NOT want the marriage culture &lt;i&gt;as currently lived by straight people&lt;/i&gt; to become hegemonic within the LGBT community.  It&#039;s a procrustean bed for both the married and the unmarried.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What we get with gay marriage is marriage as an OPTION.  Just as not all straight people choose to marry, not all of us will.  In fact, a great many will choose NOT to marry, for a number of different reasons.</p>
<p>Those who marry do not define the straight community, and those who choose to marry homosexually will never define the LGBT community.  Community-wide irresponsible bachelorhood vs. responsible marriedness is a false dichotomy.</p>
<p>One of the truly loathesome things about the straight community are its myriad punitive, derogatory, strait-jacketing rules.  If you are older than a certain age, unmarried and female, you&#8217;re an &#8220;old maid&#8221;, you&#8217;re &#8220;sad&#8221;, &#8220;alone&#8221;, you never get laid.  If you are older than a certain age and you&#8217;re a man, you&#8217;re either a &#8220;dirty old man&#8221;, or you&#8217;re &#8220;weird&#8221;, or you&#8217;re &#8220;sad&#8221; and &#8220;alone&#8221;, or &#8220;suspicious&#8221; (possibly gay).  There&#8217;s nothing good to be said about older straight people who are unmarried, and the best thing said about them is that they are &#8220;unfortunate&#8221;.</p>
<p>Those things are not foregone cultural conclusions for lesbians or gay men who are older.  I for one do NOT want the marriage culture <i>as currently lived by straight people</i> to become hegemonic within the LGBT community.  It&#8217;s a procrustean bed for both the married and the unmarried.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/07/13/35068/comment-page-1#comment-98313</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:16:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=35068#comment-98313</guid>
		<description>Stephen said &quot;And I don’t think of people as being freaks.&quot;.

I used to proudly consider myself a freak.  I don&#039;t know if I qualify anymore though, I&#039;ve settled down a lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen said &#8220;And I don’t think of people as being freaks.&#8221;.</p>
<p>I used to proudly consider myself a freak.  I don&#8217;t know if I qualify anymore though, I&#8217;ve settled down a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/07/13/35068/comment-page-1#comment-98302</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 13:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=35068#comment-98302</guid>
		<description>Justme. Perhaps I&#039;ve lived a charmed life but in my work I&#039;ve often operated in a completely gay world. Where gay men have entirely set the tone. You know what? It&#039;s just like the straight world with less football. I understand very well that people who operate in less open environments will feel the need to assert themselves. And that will always be true. My only point is that I look forward to the day when there isn&#039;t the same desperation attached.

And I don&#039;t think of people as being freaks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justme. Perhaps I&#8217;ve lived a charmed life but in my work I&#8217;ve often operated in a completely gay world. Where gay men have entirely set the tone. You know what? It&#8217;s just like the straight world with less football. I understand very well that people who operate in less open environments will feel the need to assert themselves. And that will always be true. My only point is that I look forward to the day when there isn&#8217;t the same desperation attached.</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t think of people as being freaks.</p>
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		<title>By: Weston O'Neal</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/07/13/35068/comment-page-1#comment-98293</link>
		<dc:creator>Weston O'Neal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 07:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=35068#comment-98293</guid>
		<description>Thank you for writing this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for writing this.</p>
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		<title>By: Reed Boyer</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/07/13/35068/comment-page-1#comment-98283</link>
		<dc:creator>Reed Boyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 02:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=35068#comment-98283</guid>
		<description>I must have missed something in the Dan Savage article cited, as my read of it doesn&#039;t particularly find any &quot;recommendation&quot; that sexual exclusivity be abandoned.  DS and his other half discuss their own situation, but don&#039;t seem to be pushing a POV for others.

As to major corporations requiring marriage for same-sex couples presently receiving benefits under a domestic partnership program - my own experience:  when the Walt Disney company implemented DP coverage, prior to California state DPs, domestic partnership papers had to be on record, or produced within 30 days.  If one&#039;s municipality did not have a DP program, an affidavit was required -.until the city or county passed a DP ordinance (at which time, proof of registration was required with 30 days).  

Hoops to jump through, &quot;inclusion obligations,&quot; and lots of paperwork (as marriages are, and were, and will be).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must have missed something in the Dan Savage article cited, as my read of it doesn&#8217;t particularly find any &#8220;recommendation&#8221; that sexual exclusivity be abandoned.  DS and his other half discuss their own situation, but don&#8217;t seem to be pushing a POV for others.</p>
<p>As to major corporations requiring marriage for same-sex couples presently receiving benefits under a domestic partnership program &#8211; my own experience:  when the Walt Disney company implemented DP coverage, prior to California state DPs, domestic partnership papers had to be on record, or produced within 30 days.  If one&#8217;s municipality did not have a DP program, an affidavit was required -.until the city or county passed a DP ordinance (at which time, proof of registration was required with 30 days).  </p>
<p>Hoops to jump through, &#8220;inclusion obligations,&#8221; and lots of paperwork (as marriages are, and were, and will be).</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/07/13/35068/comment-page-1#comment-98267</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2011 22:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=35068#comment-98267</guid>
		<description>Way to go, Justme. : )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Way to go, Justme. : )</p>
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		<title>By: justme</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/07/13/35068/comment-page-1#comment-98265</link>
		<dc:creator>justme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2011 21:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=35068#comment-98265</guid>
		<description>Stephen, of course gay culture is a culture borne out of oppression, just like any other oppressed peoples&#039; cultures.  And of course it will change over time, just like it always has.  But I&#039;d say it doesn&#039;t have to be an either/or situation; embrace the new and celebrate the old.  After all, it&#039;s the old that made the new possible.

In other words, the one and only reason you&#039;re able to live the mainstream life you&#039;ve chosen is because of all the freaks who made it possible.  Those freaks deserve our gratitude and our respect, not our scorn.  If everyone else hasn&#039;t caught up to you in terms of cultural evolution, then just give them a moment or two more and more people will.

But the freaks will never totally disappear and thank heaven for that.  A world of mainstream, responsible, grown-up people has to sound boring as hell even to someone who considers themselves to be mainstream, responsible and grown-up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen, of course gay culture is a culture borne out of oppression, just like any other oppressed peoples&#8217; cultures.  And of course it will change over time, just like it always has.  But I&#8217;d say it doesn&#8217;t have to be an either/or situation; embrace the new and celebrate the old.  After all, it&#8217;s the old that made the new possible.</p>
<p>In other words, the one and only reason you&#8217;re able to live the mainstream life you&#8217;ve chosen is because of all the freaks who made it possible.  Those freaks deserve our gratitude and our respect, not our scorn.  If everyone else hasn&#8217;t caught up to you in terms of cultural evolution, then just give them a moment or two more and more people will.</p>
<p>But the freaks will never totally disappear and thank heaven for that.  A world of mainstream, responsible, grown-up people has to sound boring as hell even to someone who considers themselves to be mainstream, responsible and grown-up.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/07/13/35068/comment-page-1#comment-98255</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2011 19:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=35068#comment-98255</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d need to pay two accountants. And I don&#039;t think it&#039;s worth it. If DOMA&#039;s overturned then it&#039;s different. But till then I&#039;ve been advised to stay as we are. We might also have to re-do some legal arrangements we have. I&#039;ll need to at least consult with a lawyer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d need to pay two accountants. And I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s worth it. If DOMA&#8217;s overturned then it&#8217;s different. But till then I&#8217;ve been advised to stay as we are. We might also have to re-do some legal arrangements we have. I&#8217;ll need to at least consult with a lawyer.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/07/13/35068/comment-page-1#comment-98252</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2011 19:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=35068#comment-98252</guid>
		<description>Stephen,

Please discuss this with your tax accountant.  

Yes it will cost more in tax preparation fees* but only in very rare circumstances would you pay higher taxes by filing as &#039;married filing jointly&#039; status.

* - Because the feds don&#039;t recognize marriage, multiple returns are required.  But if DOMA 3 is overturned then the fees would likely be less than the two of you filing separately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen,</p>
<p>Please discuss this with your tax accountant.  </p>
<p>Yes it will cost more in tax preparation fees* but only in very rare circumstances would you pay higher taxes by filing as &#8216;married filing jointly&#8217; status.</p>
<p>* &#8211; Because the feds don&#8217;t recognize marriage, multiple returns are required.  But if DOMA 3 is overturned then the fees would likely be less than the two of you filing separately.</p>
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