Box Turtle Bulletin
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobby“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobbySeptember 20th, 2011
National Organization for Marriage founder Maggie Gallagher was in the balcony of the Eugene O’Neil Theater for the all-star world premiere of Dustin Lance Black’s new play “8”, which is based on the trial transcripts of Perry v Schwarzenegger, the federal court case which declared California’s Proposition 8 unconstitutional. The play featured all the major courtroom figures, with John Lithgow as Ted Olson, Morgan Freeman as David Boies, Bradley Whitford as Alliance Defense Fund attorney Charles Cooper, and Jayne Houdyshell as Maggie Gallagher. Meanwhile, Gallagher herself was sitting in the balcony, grazing away:
My friends Phil and Ronald sat directly in front of her. You can see Ronald in the top photo. They had a hard time listening to the show because along with her nerve, Ms. Gallagher brought a large plastic bag of loud food, which she rustled and munched throughout the production (she’s still got it on the way out). Perhaps she thought it was a popcorn flick she was going to. In any case, someone should have told her that it’s rude, perhaps even against the rules, to eat in the theatre.
Much of the play was taken directly from the trial transcripts themselves, interspersed with screenings from the Yes on 8 campaign. The transcripts are part of the public record, although the video recordings taken during the trial are not — yet. The reading was a fundraiser for Americans for Equal Rights, who are backing the Prop 8 litigation on behalf of California couples. Other cast members included Ellen Barkin, Kate Shindle, Stephen Spinella, Matt Bomer, Campbell Brown, Anthony Edwards, Cheyenne Jackson, Larry Kramer, Rob Riener, and many more.
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BlackDog
September 20th, 2011
I wonder if she brought the food in there and all that simply to be a disruption??
Eating or talking during a movie or play is just plain rude, and I can’t imagine she couldn’t control herself long enough to sit through a play.
Yeah, I think she did it deliberately, probably was hoping to get kicked out so she could make a scene.
Lindoro Almaviva
September 20th, 2011
What I wonder is if she will object to having her name listed in the donor’s list. After all, the performance was a benefit for Americans for Equal Rights (and it stands to reason she was not necessarily invited, so she had to get a ticket) and we know that having your list of donors made public can lead to scary encounters.
Well, I guess Maggie and NOM are now in the donors list for Americans for Equal Rights.
Regan DuCasse
September 20th, 2011
What a low class pig this woman is!
She takes off her shoes and puts them up on the rails in a court of law. She brings noisy bags of food during a THEATER production, which is a no no.
Movie theaters have a different sound distribution so eating isn’t as loud in the same way it would be in a theater.
Who knows why she DID behave that way. In order to be removed and then bitch about how she was treated later?
It wouldn’t surprise any of us. But she’s so gross anyway and I can’t stand her and BB.
I don’t know what she expected to prove by coming to this production, but she was more welcome in that venue than gay people would be to something NOM was hosting, that’s for sure.
They’d probably accuse gay people who did so of being up to something threatening.
I’m looking forward to seeing this production myself.
Regan DuCasse
September 20th, 2011
Something just occurred to me. I’m wondering if she’s going to give a review that will be a whole different story from what the play was about.
As we all know, she and Brian Brown live in another universe where what they see and hear is shit they make up or interpret in a weird way.
So it’s a good bet her review of the play will be out soon, right?
Regan DuCasse
September 20th, 2011
Oops, typo.
I meant so say she’s takes off her shoes in court, and puts her BARE FEET up on the rails.
Ewww!
Priya Lynn
September 20th, 2011
Regan said “Something just occurred to me. I’m wondering if she’s going to give a review that will be a whole different story from what the play was about.”.
LOL, I think that’s a safe bet that she will.
BlackDog
September 20th, 2011
She took her shoes off in a courtroom and put her feet up???
That’s just low class, and in a place where professionalism should be the order of the day, period.
Not to mention, it sounds like she doesn’t take her “job” seriously. If she did, she’d not have done that.
Lucrece
September 20th, 2011
Can the classist crap be kept out of the comments?
Looking down on someone for eating in a play and deriding her as “low class” makes you as much a steaming pile of sh*t of a person as she is.
Quit exaggerating about the bags of food, as fond as gay men are of mocking fat women when they’re anti-gay, given that you weren’t there in the theater to see if it was disruptive. Even then I’d hold a pretty high threshold for disruptive given the bias most gay people will have toward the woman compared to just another ally/gay person doing the same.
Comments could criticize her for her positions, not the mannerisms she’s culturally inherited. They’re just as ugly as the treatment Italian and Irish immigrants got when they came to the US, when for the mere different in customs their behavior was deemed savage.
Regan DuCasse
September 20th, 2011
Lucrece…seriously?
What did I just say? Theatrical productions have a different sound distribution than MOVIE theaters. It’s VERY disruptive to have plastic bags like that, and snacks in such a situation.
She IS low class. It’s right up there with talking on your cell phone in the theater at all. See?
Now, for the issue at hand. I just had another thought.
One thing is for sure, most liberal political policy, such as marriage equality and so on, attracts some serious celebrity players. Look at the line up of talent on stage as well as in the audience for this show.
There is NO WAY, NOM and their supports can attract name talent in this way. Dustin Black is an OSCAR winner.
I have a feeling that MG wanted to meet celebrities and figured that perhaps she could get some face time in this situation in order to feel special herself.
She’s such a loser that has NO OTHER life and NO OTHER accomplishment in which to gain attention.
It’s a theory, but any of you can let me know what you think about it.
BlackDog
September 20th, 2011
Dude, there’s a huge difference between class as in “social” class and “class” as in how one behaves in public.
Honestly, given the circles she supposedly moves in and the big money donors NOM apparently attracts you would think she would have better manners than that. You would think she would have to not only to be taken seriously but simply to be spoken to in polite company.
I say this, being the son of a factory draftsman and housewife-turned-small-business-owner who later in life became a social worker…and as a grandchild of military veterans. Hell, man, you know what *I* do for a living?? I’m a dishwasher. The highest “Status” job I’ve ever had was the Air Force for fuck’s fucking sake!
To reduce it to the simplest terms I’ll simply use a phrase my Grandpa T. drilled into me over the years…
“Some things are just not done in the better places”
This was said by a man who was a Detroit Firefighter…later City administrative worker…and Naval Reservist.
There’s “Class” and then there’s class, and you can very easily be of high “Class” and have no class whatsoever.
Timothy Kincaid
September 20th, 2011
I’m guessing that Maggie was partly looking for opposition ammunition, but mostly was just curious. She’s shown up at pro-gay marriage events before – anonymously but recognized.
It’s odd, but my impression is that Maggie is sincere. Unlike The Peter (and Brian Brown, for that matter), for Maggie it’s less about hate and defeating the enemy and more because she believes that the world would be better if gay people just didn’t get couple recognition.
And even after all this time she does still display curiosity about it all. I know this sounds bizarre, but I would not be surprised if some day she tells some interviewer that she has changed her views about civil recognition of marriage.
Kelly
September 20th, 2011
I don’t know what she was eating, and there’s no excuse if she was doing it loudly and disruptively, but she is a diabetic. She might have been eating because her blood sugar was too low.
Lucrece
September 21st, 2011
“Dude, there’s a huge difference between class as in “social†class and “class†as in how one behaves in public.”
And in your following example you displayed why this notion fail. Because you’re classifying mannerisms which are instinctive to people and often dependent on how they were raised as “better”. Low class people often being associated with the undesirable behaviors, they were associated with a label that puts down even the silliest thing as how you place your feet in court as high/low class. It’s pretentious crap. It reeks of a need to feel superior to someone else due to their differences in a behavior that doesn’t even impact us that much.
Her talking points are harmful. Her economical and political ties have horrid effects worth discussing.
How she puts her feet in court or how “sound distribution works differently” (I’ve gone to theaters, and this is verging whine) is petty swiping at her background. I dislike it. Even if she were eating with her hands instead of using utensils, or going barefooted, it’s despicable that you would point and laugh and deride.
It reminds me of cable news channels and entertainment shows that will fixate on the slightest and most frivolous deviation from norms as a reason to pass judgement and marginalize people.
Marginalization is a highly damaging tactic and should only be justified with threatening/actively harmful actions. Failure to adhere to an elite’s etiquette is not one of those reasons.
Ryan
September 21st, 2011
Lucrece, it is not “classist” to expect people to have good manners. In fact, it’s pretty patronizing of you to *not* expect it. If you don’t know that putting up your bare feet on a railing in a courthouse is rude and uncouth, then your parents have failed utterly in raising you, no matter what your income or culture.
Ryan
September 21st, 2011
P.S. I like the idea that deriding someone for going to a play barefooted is “despicable”, and elitist. Nice touch!
BlackDog
September 21st, 2011
Lucrece, have you ever been in a courtroom for anything?? I have, three different times, two for minor charges and once for a divorce.
I don’t feel it’s a appropriate environment to take off one’s shoes and put one’s feet up, period, and I think doing so shows disrespect to the court and to the law. This is an environment where in my experience everyone is trying to behave and look their best simply because that’s how one is expected to conduct themselves in such a serious environment. Also in my experience all of the people working there show a great degree of professionalism and are expected to, because that’s the way it is. One doesn’t screw around with legal matters and in my understanding of it, this also extends to how one acts/dresses when dealing with such things. I’m sorry, but that’s just how I was taught.
Her beliefs are just plain wrong, her economic, political and religious ties are harmful to others, AND she has manners one would expect of a young child at best or maybe uneducated white trash at worst. I’ll be charitable I guess, and say maybe she’s not like that and she’s doing this for attention…not that seeking that kind of attention does her any favors.
I’ve never been to see a stage play, but for fuck’s sake I was taught you don’t even make a lot of loud noise in a MOVIE theater, because it’s rude.
Her actions in that theater show that on a basic level, whatever her politics, she is fundamentally inconsiderate towards other people.
Her actions in the courtroom show a basic disregard for the law, professionalism, and the social mores of the legal profession (which is something even most criminals seem able to adhere to in my experience because it may help the judge’s opinion of them, seeing as yes, I’ve been in court for misdemeanor charges.) Her courtroom behavior also shows that she doesn’t take her “job” seriously, in my opinion.
In other words, why anyone would ever take this person seriously, much less give her money or let her run a national campaign for this or that, I don’t know.
I was absolutely taught that good manners are important, I don’t always have them (but I do try) and I swear like a sailor a lot of the time (much to my grandma’s disdain) but when it’s important to do so I pay attention to what I was taught. That’s not being pretentious…in most cases it’s basic consideration for other people. IMO there was a time when things like etiquette were not confined to an “elite” or to professional situations but simply something everyone learned and was not taken seriously if they didn’t follow.
It used to be, that treating other people with respect was expected, even if you didn’t agree with them or like them. That was basic etiquette, more or less.
While a lot of things have improved for a lot of people since I was a little kid in the 70’s I think we are lesser for having lost that, and frankly I think our political situation shows this the most.
Richard Rush
September 21st, 2011
If my husband had been seated near the feed-munching wrapper-rustling Maggie, he would have said something to her (he has zero-tolerance for that in theaters) Then, of course, today we would be reading about how Maggie was attacked by a typical intolerant homo-fascist simply because of who she is – a boorish lout.
Lucrece
September 21st, 2011
“Lucrece, it is not “classist†to expect people to have good manners. In fact, it’s pretty patronizing of you to *not* expect it. If you don’t know that putting up your bare feet on a railing in a courthouse is rude and uncouth, then your parents have failed utterly in raising you, no matter what your income or culture.”
What are good manners? Your cultural preferences? Because in Japan it is good manner for women to walk behind men, and in the Middle East it is “good manners” for women to cover up and for men not to interact with female strangers.
See, that’s where your privileged viewpoint is made clear. “Manners” often develop by classifying behavior as good or bad that is often done by the outsider cultures that don’t hold as much sway in a country as more powerful classes. Sagging is a relevant issue in US society, where it’s considered “rude” to wear your clothes in a way that deviates from the norm — i.e. non-WASP.
Yes, deriding someone based on their looks is pigheaded and elitist. It may be amusing to you, but it will be amusing to me as musicals and theaters struggle nowadays to stay open and pull in the next generation of youth (who will become adults). Your way of looking at people in completely irrelevant and frivolous matters is off-putting. It places the superficial over the substance of an individual. And there’s plenty of substance to question about Maggie, but you’d rather go the lazy way and criticize the superficial.
—-
BlackDog
“Lucrece, have you ever been in a courtroom for anything?? I have, three different times, two for minor charges and once for a divorce.
I don’t feel it’s a appropriate environment to take off one’s shoes and put one’s feet up, period, and I think doing so shows disrespect to the court and to the law. This is an environment where in my experience everyone is trying to behave and look their best simply because that’s how one is expected to conduct themselves in such a serious environment. Also in my experience all of the people working there show a great degree of professionalism and are expected to, because that’s the way it is. One doesn’t screw around with legal matters and in my understanding of it, this also extends to how one acts/dresses when dealing with such things. I’m sorry, but that’s just how I was taught.”
Yes, I’ve been to court, not for charges on myself but alongside people I know.
I don’t care what you feel is inappropriate or what in your eyes shows “disrespect”. It’s such a subjective view to evaluate. I certainly don’t want anti-gay people and their subjective views of sexuality ruling that because my PDA discomforts their preconceived notions of proper behavior, then I and my boyfriend should be restricted based on their personal discomfort. It is “unprofessional” in some places for females not to wear make-up, or have too long and stylized hair, or show their shape via clothing too much because it’s so damn distracting for the “professional” men.
“Her beliefs are just plain wrong, her economic, political and religious ties are harmful to others,”
Agree.
“AND she has manners one would expect of a young child at best or maybe uneducated white trash at worst. I’ll be charitable I guess, and say maybe she’s not like that and she’s doing this for attention…not that seeking that kind of attention does her any favors.”
“Uneducated white trash”. Classist bullshit right there. You don’t get to call people trash, ever, for mannerisms you disagree with. Here you go about being considerate and respectful to others, except for the people you find distasteful and thus acceptable to dehumanize with such odious labels.
If you ever wanted to know why this country remains as anti-intellectual as it is, there’s your answer. It’s kind of hard to convince someone they come off an asshole to you in their behavior when you’re being an asshole yourself with such arrogant dismissiveness of people’s backgrounds.
Ryan
September 21st, 2011
At this point I’m about 90% certain you’re a troll. But either way, highly amusing. I just hope I never run into you in public, because you’ll likely be wearing clown makeup and an orange traffic cone on your head and calling people “elitist” if they notice.
Lucrece
September 21st, 2011
*yawn* At least BlackDog understands the basics of discussion. Forgive me if I pass on to trying to have discussions with people whose idea of exchange is petty venom and presumption about others.
Priya Lynn
September 21st, 2011
Yes, Ryan I’m not sure I agree with Lucrece but I’m 90% certain she’s not a troll. I think her arguments are plausible and rational.
Scott L.
September 21st, 2011
Lucrece, just wondering how you’d address a certain situation. my spouse used to work at a company that mainly employed immigrants from Central America. most of these people were unused to indoor plumbing and when using the one and only restroom would often drop used toilet paper on the floor next to the toilet instead of in the bowl and flushing it away. This in spite of several signs as well as requests that they not do this rather disgusting behavior. Is it “classist” to expect proper sanitation in such a situation? If Maggie had a fungal infection on her feet would it be “classist” to expect her not to place her feet on a place where people might rub their hands? My neighbors in our apartment building often drop door-hangers and and various cards left in their mail boxes on the ground instead of taking them inside and throwing them away themselves. Since I like to live in a clean building I end up picking up their trash. Does this make me “classist” for expecting them to deal with their own garbage?
Timothy Kincaid
September 21st, 2011
Ya know, this nonsense that all backgrounds, all cultures, all traditions, all behaviors have to be treated as equal and celebrated EXCEPT for that of Americans (especially white middle-class Americans) is stupid. It’s illogical. And, at it’s basis, it is classist and racist.
In case it has never occurred to Lucrece, let me point out the obvious: if one culture says to throw your trash in a bin and another says to throw it wherever you find yourself, those are not socially equal cultural traits. One is inferior, one is superior, and only a dolt can’t tell the difference.
And if we insist on acting as though its ok to be a loud, smelly, dirty annoyance to others just because you were born in some part of the world that doesn’t have running water or trash containers, then we are fools.
Ryan
September 21st, 2011
Wow, what a day. I’m agreeing with Timothy! :) And it’s also worth pointing out that Maggie isn’t some foreign nationalist who unaware of our customs and how to behave in public.
Jim Burroway
September 21st, 2011
Maggie Gallagher was born in 1960 in Lake Oswego, Oregon, an affluent suburb of Portland. I had no idea Oregonian culture was so vastly different from the rest of the country, or that people from the greater Portland area were so unfamiliar with theaters or decorum in courtrooms. I grew up in Appalachia, and even we would have rolled our eyes at such behavior.
Lucrece
September 21st, 2011
“Lucrece, just wondering how you’d address a certain situation. my spouse used to work at a company that mainly employed immigrants from Central America. most of these people were unused to indoor plumbing and when using the one and only restroom would often drop used toilet paper on the floor next to the toilet instead of in the bowl and flushing it away. This in spite of several signs as well as requests that they not do this rather disgusting behavior. Is it “classist†to expect proper sanitation in such a situation? If Maggie had a fungal infection on her feet would it be “classist†to expect her not to place her feet on a place where people might rub their hands? My neighbors in our apartment building often drop door-hangers and and various cards left in their mail boxes on the ground instead of taking them inside and throwing them away themselves. Since I like to live in a clean building I end up picking up their trash. Does this make me “classist†for expecting them to deal with their own garbage?”
I’m addressing this since I think it also encompasses Timothy’s missing the point.
It’s one thing to try to educate people or communicate to them that their behavior is uncomfortable and you’d hope they’d make efforts to meet you in the middle if they won’t go the full way. Hell, even set up policies to enforce if you’re the owner (and said theaters, whose prerogative is to restrict behavior, have not deemed eating during a play out of line).
It’s another to call them “trash” and dehumanize them. Or as Kincaid did more politely, label “inferior”.
Not that it still confuses me where Kincaid came up with the notion that Americans are being excluded, given that “white trash” is about as stereotypical American as you can get. That seemed more like a strawman.
Maggie is an American after all, and removing her shoes neither made her stinky, and if she had been disruptive at the play I’m sure she would’ve been escorted out given that she has no friends in Broadway.
Kincaid also brought out the example of throwing trash in the ground. It’s a faulty example because throwing trash in the ground has clearly harmful effects. It doesn’t just offend sensibilities, it has health repercussions.
How does removing your shoes in court or eating during a play have comparable harm against others?
Richard Rush
September 22nd, 2011
I agree with Timothy K., too.
And regarding this:
At least if they were born in those other parts of the world, I could understand – for awhile. But in our city, the loudest, smelliest, dirtiest annoying people seem overwhelmingly to be those who were born here. They have their rights, you know, along with an entrenched cadre of defenders.
Priya Lynn
September 22nd, 2011
I would have agreed with Timothy initially, but after reading Lucrece’s comments I’m undecided on whether or not Maggie’s behavior is acceptable. There are few things I hate worse than a holier than thou person, but I’m not convinced it is unreasonable to oppose Maggie’s behavior. No one has convinced me one way or the other.
Priya Lynn
September 22nd, 2011
For example, some commenters suggested its a potential health hazard for Maggie to put her bare feet on the railing but if you think about it rationally our hands are constantly touching our eyes, noses, and mouths and are thus much more likely to transfer disease to the railing than a person’s feet. I wonder if the opposition to this is more a matter of style than any real concern for health.
cowboy
September 22nd, 2011
Let’s get back to why Ms. Gallagher was in the audience.
She claims it was the one and only performance and she didn’t want to miss it. She was curious but maybe a little crass on what I think was a social faux pas on her part.
At least she felt safe enough to be in such an environment…some might classify as hostile.
The pathos! This might be a play within a play next year.
occono
September 22nd, 2011
This is a bizarre conversation. Maggie Gallagher should have been raised with these customs, regardless of whether they’re theoretically rational or not…..does she have a mental disability of some sort? I don’t think there’s any reason to not point out absurdities like putting your bare feet on a courtroom rail from a woman who is regularly in the media denouncing millions of Americans and working vigorously to dehumanize them. Lucrece, this woman is not worth any sympathy. She is not of any differing culture that needs to be respected. Maybe the food wasn’t as disruptive as it’s being said it is but I don’t see it as any big issue compared to what she says about us*. (*Well, I’m not American, but still.)
Scott L.
September 22nd, 2011
Priya Lynn, I brought up the possible health hazard of bare feet being placed on a rail and I guarantee it’s more than a small matter.
Two examples from my own family should clarify why I feel my point is valid. My father served in both the European and Pacific theaters during World War II. He acquired a fungus that never completely left him until the day he died. He was very careful not to expose his condition to the rest of the family. He wasn’t highly contagious but he didn’t want to take that chance.
My mother had a toe-nail infection that was very painful and required daily application of a fungicide. When she was at home during her last days I applied the ointment. I had to be careful not to get expose myself to the fungus.
Both of these conditions were a bit more painful and harmful than the common cold.
As to respecting foreign customs we’ve dealt with comparably minor things. Let me ask whether those of you who feel what Maggie did was perfectly fine and that we should respect her as a human, should we also respect honor killings? What about female circumcision? Some cultures feel it’s the height of civilization to kill a person who exposes the bottom or your foot to another. Would you support their “right” to off Ms. Gallagher?
Priya Lynn
September 22nd, 2011
Scott, I’m not doubting that diseases can be transferred from one person’s feet to an object to another person’s hands and infect them.
What I’m saying is that because our hands are constantly touching mucous membranes that they are going to transmit diseases much more frequently than feet and yet no one freaks out about someone putting their hands on a railing.
Priya Lynn
September 22nd, 2011
Scott said “Let me ask whether those of you who feel what Maggie did was perfectly fine and that we should respect her as a human, should we also respect honor killings? What about female circumcision?”.
That’s a straw man. No one is saying that every aspect of a different culture is acceptable. There’s a huge difference between suggesting its not a big deal to put one’s bare feet on a railing and mutliating a woman’s genitalia against her will.
Scott L.
September 22nd, 2011
Priya, I don’t think it’s a straw man argument at all. It wasn’t aimed at your comments. It was meant to address the attitude that somehow ALL cultures, and by extension EVERY aspect of that culture, is worthy of respect. Lucrece has implied that expecting others to behave in a manner that is considered acceptable in the United States is “classist”. I strongly disagree. If a person has been told that what they do is considered impolite and they continue to engage in that behavior, then yes, I DO look down on them! And no one here can pretend that Ms. Gallagher doesn’t know that her behavior is not acceptable!
And there is a difference between passing on a cold and passing on a fungal infection that very difficult to deal with.
Priya Lynn
September 22nd, 2011
Scott, no one here has said that all cultures and every aspect of every culture is worthy of respect, so yes, that is a straw man. Lucrece said nothing about respecting honour killings or female genital mutilation and certainly didn’t imply she respected those so you trying to pin that on her because of her arguments is cheap and petty.
A lot more diseases than the common cold are transferred via hands and contact with mucous membranes. I’m not a doctor, but if you’re suggesting more serious diseases are passed on by contact with feet than are passed on by contact with hands I don’t buy that in the slightest. What I have heard from medical professionals and what you should know to be intuitively correct is that pathogens transfer easily from mucous membranes (hence many diseases are sexually transmitted but less easily transmitted by skin to skin contact). Hands come into contract with mucous membranes many, many times per day and feet very rarely so. To get freaked out about feet on a railing and not hands on a railing is far more about style and taste than it is any objective concern over the transfer of disease.
I’m inclined to agree with you that Gallagher’s behavior is unacceptable. But I have a nagging doubt about that as I wonder if it isn’t a bit arbritrary and certainly to some degree it is.
Scott L.
September 22nd, 2011
Priya, so I’m petty and I’m cheap? Isn’t that making a value judgement? Isn’t that a “classist” attitude? Deriding me personally doesn’t give you the high ground that you think you’ve claimed in this thread.
Priya Lynn
September 22nd, 2011
Yes, Scott, when you claim Lucrece’s arguments are the same as supporting honour killings and female genital mutilation you’re being petty and cheap. I’m not sure whether or not that’s a classist attitude and I don’t really care. The degree to which I’ve derided you is a great deal less than the degree to which you derided Lucrece yet somehow you think its okay for you to deride her but not me to deride you – that’s rather hypocritical.
Scott L.
September 22nd, 2011
In what way have I derided Lucrece? I’ve only asked to clarify her position . I have not made any value judgment as to her own self, just her argument that we’re supposed to respect every differing culture. And what does that respect entail? Complete acceptance, or only partial? And if only partial, why? Each part of a culture is is informed by all the rest. One cannot value the culture of Somalia and say that it has an equal footing to ours if you object to a major aspect of it, such as female mutilation. It is INTRINSIC to their culture.
On a personal note, for the most part I ignore your postings, you are smug and self-satisfied. You have made it abundantly clear you consider yourself the go to expert on every subject ever broached here.
Priya Lynn
September 22nd, 2011
Scott, I’m not going to get into a long abstract debate with you. Cultural acceptance is partial and conditional based on harm, its not an all or nothing thing, one can accept parts of it and that’s all I’m going to say about that.
Far from considering myself an expert on this I’ve said I’m on the fence, I don’t know whether or not Maggie’s feet on the rail are acceptable but I’m inclined to agree with you and think not. So spare me the faux victim stance.
Lucrece
September 22nd, 2011
I never defended honor killings or VERIFIABLE harms being criticized. There’s plenty of valid traits in Maggie to be criticized. Putting her bare feet on a rail and calling her uneducated/white trash/fat slob and whatever otehr myriad insults gay men feel like calling her on frivolous grounds while pretending to be the “compassionate” side is what’s at issue.
In fact, I brought the examples with Japan and abuses against women as a reason why we don’t give a flying crap about sensibilities, since just because they’re popular doesn’t make them valid. Homophobic sensibilities thus far have been pretty popular, but we don’t buy them just because they are.
I’m highly suspicious that if it were just any regular guy — hell, if it were Brad Pitt airing his feet or eating at a theater– all this mock indignance at “lack of respect for the system and social etiquette! *pearl-clutching*” would even exist.
People are fixating into silly mannerisms and using them to vent pent up anger towards the woman. It’s not okay. Not for even Maggie.
occono
September 22nd, 2011
….If Brad Pitt did it it’d definitely make the news. He would be mocked for it.
Erin
September 22nd, 2011
Wow, this thread went way all over the place with the whole “classist/ not classist” argument. Why can’t we just change the language from “classless” to “rude” and all agree that Maggie’s behavior was just plain rude, and say “oops, I didn’t mean to imply she was of a lower class and that’s why she was acting like an inferior human being, I meant she was just being rude.” Can’t we all just get along. Manners pretty much stretch across all socio-economic classes.
cd
September 25th, 2011
I find it interesting that Maggie is so comfortable among a lot of gay people.
I can think of reason why that might be….
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