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	<title>Comments on: Ex-Gay Survivor To Former Leader: &#8220;This Is What An Apology Looks Like&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/13/37845</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/13/37845/comment-page-1#comment-108340</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2011 16:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37845#comment-108340</guid>
		<description>Bruce, the knife, in this case, was stuck into the victims back.  Then handed to his/ her parents for another stab.  Then the victim was carefully trained to stab themselves over and over again.  Do not underestimate the damage done by psychological abuse, especially at the hands of so-called professionals -- it is profound because of the air of authority behind it, the vulnerability of the victims, and the particularly pernicious way it divided them from the very people who should be their support system in healing. It can distort the personality of the victim, making it harder for them to trust or build relationships.  And they have such a well of anger and hurt they&#039;re left to wade through on their own.  I suffered abuse at the hands of a psychological professional as a kid (related, believe it or not, to bedwetting, not gay issues), and the results lasted decades.      I later found out that the practitioner lost her license, was sued by multiple clients, and was forced to leave the industry.  I never got that apology, so I have no idea whether it would have helped, but at least I got the satisfaction of knowing that other people judged her actions wrong and actionable.  

How do you forgive the unforgiveable?  

It&#039;s easy for those of us not victimized to say &quot;hey, look, we won one!  haha, they admitted it!  case closed, let&#039;s move on!&quot; - and boy am I glad I&#039;m one of those who has the luxury of putting this very bad man out of my mind. 

But let&#039;s not forget.  He put bread on his table, food in his mouth, and a roof over his head for decades by these actions.  By my standards, all of those things are forfeit.  This guy should be stripped of his possessions and required to live off the kindness of strangers.   Perhaps that will be the judge of his sincerity and contrition - because &quot;just words&quot; don&#039;t cut it.  And yeah, a hairshirt sounds just about right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce, the knife, in this case, was stuck into the victims back.  Then handed to his/ her parents for another stab.  Then the victim was carefully trained to stab themselves over and over again.  Do not underestimate the damage done by psychological abuse, especially at the hands of so-called professionals &#8212; it is profound because of the air of authority behind it, the vulnerability of the victims, and the particularly pernicious way it divided them from the very people who should be their support system in healing. It can distort the personality of the victim, making it harder for them to trust or build relationships.  And they have such a well of anger and hurt they&#8217;re left to wade through on their own.  I suffered abuse at the hands of a psychological professional as a kid (related, believe it or not, to bedwetting, not gay issues), and the results lasted decades.      I later found out that the practitioner lost her license, was sued by multiple clients, and was forced to leave the industry.  I never got that apology, so I have no idea whether it would have helped, but at least I got the satisfaction of knowing that other people judged her actions wrong and actionable.  </p>
<p>How do you forgive the unforgiveable?  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s easy for those of us not victimized to say &#8220;hey, look, we won one!  haha, they admitted it!  case closed, let&#8217;s move on!&#8221; &#8211; and boy am I glad I&#8217;m one of those who has the luxury of putting this very bad man out of my mind. </p>
<p>But let&#8217;s not forget.  He put bread on his table, food in his mouth, and a roof over his head for decades by these actions.  By my standards, all of those things are forfeit.  This guy should be stripped of his possessions and required to live off the kindness of strangers.   Perhaps that will be the judge of his sincerity and contrition &#8211; because &#8220;just words&#8221; don&#8217;t cut it.  And yeah, a hairshirt sounds just about right.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/13/37845/comment-page-1#comment-108339</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2011 16:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37845#comment-108339</guid>
		<description>He teamed up with Andrew Marin? LOL! Another strike against him. Marin pretends to be a gay-loving Christian. But he is a disgusting homophobe who has the exact same opinions about gay people as other evangelical conservatives. He merely wants people to be nice about it. He is just a Christian PR clown</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He teamed up with Andrew Marin? LOL! Another strike against him. Marin pretends to be a gay-loving Christian. But he is a disgusting homophobe who has the exact same opinions about gay people as other evangelical conservatives. He merely wants people to be nice about it. He is just a Christian PR clown</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Douglas</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/13/37845/comment-page-1#comment-108316</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Douglas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2011 03:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37845#comment-108316</guid>
		<description>Bruce has an excellent insight:

 Sometimes I find myself thinking that much of the opposition to gay equality at this stage springs from an intuitive understanding of the staggeringly grievous harm they have done to so many innocent hearts; the burden not only of guilt for it, but the work of making amends. Better to keep fighting to the bitter end, and pray death will render their part in this human tragedy moot.

Subliminal guilt can drive people to do horribly cruel things and I&#039;ve no doubt it plays a role in some of the haters&#039; hearts. I wish John Smid well on his journey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce has an excellent insight:</p>
<p> Sometimes I find myself thinking that much of the opposition to gay equality at this stage springs from an intuitive understanding of the staggeringly grievous harm they have done to so many innocent hearts; the burden not only of guilt for it, but the work of making amends. Better to keep fighting to the bitter end, and pray death will render their part in this human tragedy moot.</p>
<p>Subliminal guilt can drive people to do horribly cruel things and I&#8217;ve no doubt it plays a role in some of the haters&#8217; hearts. I wish John Smid well on his journey.</p>
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		<title>By: Just wondering</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/13/37845/comment-page-1#comment-108300</link>
		<dc:creator>Just wondering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 23:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37845#comment-108300</guid>
		<description>I wonder if (the very religious) Peter LaBarbera will ever undertake an &quot;I&#039;m Sorry Campaign&quot;?

Smid is taking some huge steps in the right direction, of course, which is deeply appreciated.  I hope he&#039;s on the path to ending his self-torture (as in not allowing himself to act on his sexual orientation) as well as his torture of others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if (the very religious) Peter LaBarbera will ever undertake an &#8220;I&#8217;m Sorry Campaign&#8221;?</p>
<p>Smid is taking some huge steps in the right direction, of course, which is deeply appreciated.  I hope he&#8217;s on the path to ending his self-torture (as in not allowing himself to act on his sexual orientation) as well as his torture of others.</p>
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		<title>By: TampaZeke</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/13/37845/comment-page-1#comment-108283</link>
		<dc:creator>TampaZeke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:26:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37845#comment-108283</guid>
		<description>Real atonement requires the perpetrator to give up ALL rights to being frustrated or angry with the ongoing responses from those you&#039;ve harmed.  When Michael Busse got angry and defensive with me for angrily attacking him for his huge role in my nightmare teenage years I opened up a dialogue with him that helped him realize that he didn&#039;t have the right to be angry, frustrated or defensive with me.  He didn&#039;t have the right to say &quot;I refuse to continue apologizing over and over again for my past wrongs&quot;.  Once he realized that he had an obligation to apologize personally to each and every person who gave him the opportunity and had an obligation to accept, without judgement, anyone who refused to accept his apology something really amazing happened within BOTH of us.  I&#039;m happy to say that I have completely forgiven Mr. Busse and am now proud to call him &quot;friend&quot;.

Mr. Toscano is very right.  The abusers don&#039;t get to decide what needs to be done to make amends and they don&#039;t get to decide when they&#039;ve done enough.  Their victims alone have this right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Real atonement requires the perpetrator to give up ALL rights to being frustrated or angry with the ongoing responses from those you&#8217;ve harmed.  When Michael Busse got angry and defensive with me for angrily attacking him for his huge role in my nightmare teenage years I opened up a dialogue with him that helped him realize that he didn&#8217;t have the right to be angry, frustrated or defensive with me.  He didn&#8217;t have the right to say &#8220;I refuse to continue apologizing over and over again for my past wrongs&#8221;.  Once he realized that he had an obligation to apologize personally to each and every person who gave him the opportunity and had an obligation to accept, without judgement, anyone who refused to accept his apology something really amazing happened within BOTH of us.  I&#8217;m happy to say that I have completely forgiven Mr. Busse and am now proud to call him &#8220;friend&#8221;.</p>
<p>Mr. Toscano is very right.  The abusers don&#8217;t get to decide what needs to be done to make amends and they don&#8217;t get to decide when they&#8217;ve done enough.  Their victims alone have this right.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/13/37845/comment-page-1#comment-108280</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37845#comment-108280</guid>
		<description>As isaid, atonement is in a class all by itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As isaid, atonement is in a class all by itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Garrett</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/13/37845/comment-page-1#comment-108279</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Garrett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37845#comment-108279</guid>
		<description>I keep being reminded of what Malcolm once said about progress.  How, if you put a knife six inches into my back and you take it out four inches that isn&#039;t progress, and if you take it out all the way That isn&#039;t progress.  Progress, he said, was healing the wound.

I realize he was a very controversial figure then and now, but that quote has always rang true to me.  Progress is healing the wound.  Sometimes I find myself thinking that much of the opposition to gay equality at this stage springs from an intuitive understanding of the staggeringly grievous harm they have done to so many innocent hearts; the burden not only of guilt for it, but the work of making amends.  Better to keep fighting to the bitter end, and pray death will render their part in this human tragedy moot.

But will it?  I would at least try to make some amends now, imperfect though they may be, while I still could.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I keep being reminded of what Malcolm once said about progress.  How, if you put a knife six inches into my back and you take it out four inches that isn&#8217;t progress, and if you take it out all the way That isn&#8217;t progress.  Progress, he said, was healing the wound.</p>
<p>I realize he was a very controversial figure then and now, but that quote has always rang true to me.  Progress is healing the wound.  Sometimes I find myself thinking that much of the opposition to gay equality at this stage springs from an intuitive understanding of the staggeringly grievous harm they have done to so many innocent hearts; the burden not only of guilt for it, but the work of making amends.  Better to keep fighting to the bitter end, and pray death will render their part in this human tragedy moot.</p>
<p>But will it?  I would at least try to make some amends now, imperfect though they may be, while I still could.</p>
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		<title>By: Regan DuCasse</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/13/37845/comment-page-1#comment-108278</link>
		<dc:creator>Regan DuCasse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37845#comment-108278</guid>
		<description>Thieves, abusers, those who defame...which is the equivalent of those who profit from the ex gay industry. They all build on vulnerability and exploitation. Not just of the individual, but the political atmosphere as well. The powerful influence of all manner of systemic bigotry, supports the exploitation.

   The penance of thieves and abusers, requires MORE in compensation, than the equivalent of what they THINK they&#039;ve taken away or damaged.
  As most people who are analytical can glean from some ex gay who remain so, there is a weakness of character that requires a large amount of validation and reinforcement. Sometimes abnormal amounts of it.

  Which would imply that the opposite is true if they are to compensate those they have harmed. Perhaps, in a way, Smid needs time to &#039;grow a pair&#039;, in order to fulfill that compensation. And whatever time it takes, perhaps we&#039;re obligated to be patient.

    It&#039;s up to him to study what it&#039;ll take to grow that pair, and build the strength of character required to now be an advocate. Some people can&#039;t wait and HE won&#039;t live forever.

  I hope this teaches him also, why he shouldn&#039;t have done what he did. Too many people did run out of time, and some are still at too much risk to never have it.
Such as in the case of all the very young teens at risk of suicide and also those who torment them.

    Some would like to respect whatever time Smid should have to grow a pair and a backbone, but perhaps he needs to be on notice that it should be sooner, rather than later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thieves, abusers, those who defame&#8230;which is the equivalent of those who profit from the ex gay industry. They all build on vulnerability and exploitation. Not just of the individual, but the political atmosphere as well. The powerful influence of all manner of systemic bigotry, supports the exploitation.</p>
<p>   The penance of thieves and abusers, requires MORE in compensation, than the equivalent of what they THINK they&#8217;ve taken away or damaged.<br />
  As most people who are analytical can glean from some ex gay who remain so, there is a weakness of character that requires a large amount of validation and reinforcement. Sometimes abnormal amounts of it.</p>
<p>  Which would imply that the opposite is true if they are to compensate those they have harmed. Perhaps, in a way, Smid needs time to &#8216;grow a pair&#8217;, in order to fulfill that compensation. And whatever time it takes, perhaps we&#8217;re obligated to be patient.</p>
<p>    It&#8217;s up to him to study what it&#8217;ll take to grow that pair, and build the strength of character required to now be an advocate. Some people can&#8217;t wait and HE won&#8217;t live forever.</p>
<p>  I hope this teaches him also, why he shouldn&#8217;t have done what he did. Too many people did run out of time, and some are still at too much risk to never have it.<br />
Such as in the case of all the very young teens at risk of suicide and also those who torment them.</p>
<p>    Some would like to respect whatever time Smid should have to grow a pair and a backbone, but perhaps he needs to be on notice that it should be sooner, rather than later.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/13/37845/comment-page-1#comment-108275</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37845#comment-108275</guid>
		<description>What a very good response, far more temperate than my own reaction. I can&#039;t forget that this man made his living doing this stuff. With no training, no education, he embarked on a career hurting others.

He posted a very peculiar comment at the throckmorton blog. It does not read to me like the comment of someone who has properly understood his situation. Indeed it has just a whiff of anti-gay thinking about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a very good response, far more temperate than my own reaction. I can&#8217;t forget that this man made his living doing this stuff. With no training, no education, he embarked on a career hurting others.</p>
<p>He posted a very peculiar comment at the throckmorton blog. It does not read to me like the comment of someone who has properly understood his situation. Indeed it has just a whiff of anti-gay thinking about it.</p>
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		<title>By: CPT_Doom</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/13/37845/comment-page-1#comment-108274</link>
		<dc:creator>CPT_Doom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=37845#comment-108274</guid>
		<description>When I was in Catholic school, we learned about the origin of the Sacrament of Confession, or more appropriately, Reconcilliation. Far from being a routine part of any Catholic&#039;s experience, was originally limited to the sins of murder, adultery and renouncing the Church - this was in the early Chrisitian Church days when Christians were still being sent to the lions, and one way to save yourself was to renounce the Church. In all three sins, the sinner has not just hurt himself or his relationship with God, he has damaged his relationship with his community, and must make amends. In the early Christian Church, this meant a minimum of one year of public professions of guilt and sorrow, begging for forgiveness and the wearing of hairshirts. All of that may be too much to ask of Mr. Smid, but I whole heartedly agree that he has a lot of pennance to do among survivors of &quot;ex-gay&quot; therapy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was in Catholic school, we learned about the origin of the Sacrament of Confession, or more appropriately, Reconcilliation. Far from being a routine part of any Catholic&#8217;s experience, was originally limited to the sins of murder, adultery and renouncing the Church &#8211; this was in the early Chrisitian Church days when Christians were still being sent to the lions, and one way to save yourself was to renounce the Church. In all three sins, the sinner has not just hurt himself or his relationship with God, he has damaged his relationship with his community, and must make amends. In the early Christian Church, this meant a minimum of one year of public professions of guilt and sorrow, begging for forgiveness and the wearing of hairshirts. All of that may be too much to ask of Mr. Smid, but I whole heartedly agree that he has a lot of pennance to do among survivors of &#8220;ex-gay&#8221; therapy.</p>
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