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	<title>Comments on: Tyler Clementi&#8217;s Makeout Partner To Be Involuntarily Outed</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/21/38037</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: enough already</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/21/38037/comment-page-1#comment-109175</link>
		<dc:creator>enough already</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2011 10:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38037#comment-109175</guid>
		<description>No problem, TL.
Theo made salient points, I just didn&#039;t care for his cavelier dismissal of the work done by Jim Burroway and the many others here who take their time to provide us with information and resources in this awful fight to stop the murder and rape, beating and oppression of the GLBT community.

I, myself, have serious disagreements with Jim and others here on various subjects, to put it mildly. There is, however, no question that without the efforts of boxturtlebulletin, Uganda would be murdering gays left and right, legally under their government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No problem, TL.<br />
Theo made salient points, I just didn&#8217;t care for his cavelier dismissal of the work done by Jim Burroway and the many others here who take their time to provide us with information and resources in this awful fight to stop the murder and rape, beating and oppression of the GLBT community.</p>
<p>I, myself, have serious disagreements with Jim and others here on various subjects, to put it mildly. There is, however, no question that without the efforts of boxturtlebulletin, Uganda would be murdering gays left and right, legally under their government.</p>
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		<title>By: The Lauderdale</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/21/38037/comment-page-1#comment-109144</link>
		<dc:creator>The Lauderdale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38037#comment-109144</guid>
		<description>...my apologies to enough already.  I reread, and I see that it was Theo&#039;s dismissal that you didn&#039;t find useful.  You made that clear enough, had I been reading more carefully.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;my apologies to enough already.  I reread, and I see that it was Theo&#8217;s dismissal that you didn&#8217;t find useful.  You made that clear enough, had I been reading more carefully.</p>
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		<title>By: The Lauderdale</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/21/38037/comment-page-1#comment-109143</link>
		<dc:creator>The Lauderdale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:42:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38037#comment-109143</guid>
		<description>In short, yes.  Useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In short, yes.  Useful.</p>
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		<title>By: The Lauderdale</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/21/38037/comment-page-1#comment-109142</link>
		<dc:creator>The Lauderdale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38037#comment-109142</guid>
		<description>I appreciated Theo&#039;s comment.  It contributed useful information to the discussion and gave me some possible answers as to why the heck THE JUDGE would have ruled in favor of admitting MB&#039;s name to the proceedings.  It&#039;s true that it smacks of an intimidation tactic by the defense, but I couldn&#039;t imagine why the judge would permit it unless it serves some plausible additional purpose.  Theo&#039;s comment offered some possible theories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciated Theo&#8217;s comment.  It contributed useful information to the discussion and gave me some possible answers as to why the heck THE JUDGE would have ruled in favor of admitting MB&#8217;s name to the proceedings.  It&#8217;s true that it smacks of an intimidation tactic by the defense, but I couldn&#8217;t imagine why the judge would permit it unless it serves some plausible additional purpose.  Theo&#8217;s comment offered some possible theories.</p>
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		<title>By: enough already</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/21/38037/comment-page-1#comment-109050</link>
		<dc:creator>enough already</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2011 14:41:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38037#comment-109050</guid>
		<description>Theo,
As valid as your points are, your high-handed dismissal of those of us not gifted with your intricate knowledge of the legal system in America is less than useful.
One need not be a lawyer to understand that justice and law are two entirely separate concepts in the American system of law, especially when it comes to us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Theo,<br />
As valid as your points are, your high-handed dismissal of those of us not gifted with your intricate knowledge of the legal system in America is less than useful.<br />
One need not be a lawyer to understand that justice and law are two entirely separate concepts in the American system of law, especially when it comes to us.</p>
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		<title>By: Theo</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/21/38037/comment-page-1#comment-109017</link>
		<dc:creator>Theo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Oct 2011 21:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38037#comment-109017</guid>
		<description>This post and the related comments will never be cited as an example of great blogging.  BTB, you should consider getting an attorney to weigh in on legal controversies from time to time.  Because this post falls below BTB&#039;s usual high standards.  And the comments are like something out of a gay version of Free Republic.

Witnesses can be called to testify if they have testimony that is relevant to either the prosecution or the defense.  It is not necessary that the testimony be &quot;vital&quot; to the case, as is asserted by commenter David Roberts.  Nor is it the least bit relevant whether MB himself did anything illegal, as Burroway obtusely suggests.  The vast majority of fact witnesses in criminal cases are not themselves suspected or accused of criminal acts.  MB would not be called to testify as a punishment for wrongdoing, but in order to provide evidence so that the jury can reach a just verdict.

So the only question is whether he has anything relevant to add to the body of evidence.  Ultimately, the judge will determine that.  All the judge has permitted here is for Ravi (please note Regan Ducasse, that the defendant&#039;s  name is not &quot;Davi&quot;) to know the identity of this potential witness so that they can investigate and assess whether he should be put on a witness list.  If Ravi cannot then justify calling MB as a witness, then the judge won&#039;t permit it.

What useful testimony might MB add?  Well, Ravi told the police that he interacted with MB when MB came to visit Clementi.  He also told the police that he thought MB looked &quot;shady&quot; and he was concerned that MB might try to steal his stuff when MB was in the Ravi/Clementi dorm room, thus prompting Ravi to activate the webcam.  Ravi might argue that MB can confirm that Ravi did not display any anti-gay hostility toward MB during their interaction (this being pertinent to the hate crimes charge) and that MB might bolster Ravi&#039;s claim that he had reasonable grounds for fearing theft.

Is this persuasive?  I tend to think not, but the point is that Ravi&#039;s defense team is entitled to make this and other arguments to the judge.  They can&#039;t do that if they don&#039;t even know who MB is.  The judge did the right thing here.  He also deprived the Ravi team of an easy basis for a later appeal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post and the related comments will never be cited as an example of great blogging.  BTB, you should consider getting an attorney to weigh in on legal controversies from time to time.  Because this post falls below BTB&#8217;s usual high standards.  And the comments are like something out of a gay version of Free Republic.</p>
<p>Witnesses can be called to testify if they have testimony that is relevant to either the prosecution or the defense.  It is not necessary that the testimony be &#8220;vital&#8221; to the case, as is asserted by commenter David Roberts.  Nor is it the least bit relevant whether MB himself did anything illegal, as Burroway obtusely suggests.  The vast majority of fact witnesses in criminal cases are not themselves suspected or accused of criminal acts.  MB would not be called to testify as a punishment for wrongdoing, but in order to provide evidence so that the jury can reach a just verdict.</p>
<p>So the only question is whether he has anything relevant to add to the body of evidence.  Ultimately, the judge will determine that.  All the judge has permitted here is for Ravi (please note Regan Ducasse, that the defendant&#8217;s  name is not &#8220;Davi&#8221;) to know the identity of this potential witness so that they can investigate and assess whether he should be put on a witness list.  If Ravi cannot then justify calling MB as a witness, then the judge won&#8217;t permit it.</p>
<p>What useful testimony might MB add?  Well, Ravi told the police that he interacted with MB when MB came to visit Clementi.  He also told the police that he thought MB looked &#8220;shady&#8221; and he was concerned that MB might try to steal his stuff when MB was in the Ravi/Clementi dorm room, thus prompting Ravi to activate the webcam.  Ravi might argue that MB can confirm that Ravi did not display any anti-gay hostility toward MB during their interaction (this being pertinent to the hate crimes charge) and that MB might bolster Ravi&#8217;s claim that he had reasonable grounds for fearing theft.</p>
<p>Is this persuasive?  I tend to think not, but the point is that Ravi&#8217;s defense team is entitled to make this and other arguments to the judge.  They can&#8217;t do that if they don&#8217;t even know who MB is.  The judge did the right thing here.  He also deprived the Ravi team of an easy basis for a later appeal.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/21/38037/comment-page-1#comment-109014</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38037#comment-109014</guid>
		<description>So basically the judge is just finishing what Ravi started. What a gross injustice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So basically the judge is just finishing what Ravi started. What a gross injustice.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Hogan</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/21/38037/comment-page-1#comment-108988</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Hogan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Oct 2011 08:47:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38037#comment-108988</guid>
		<description>If the defense thinks that outing MB to the court will help their case, I wish them well in it; however, all possible measures should be taken to prevent MB&#039;s identity from becoming public. Anything less is witness intimidation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the defense thinks that outing MB to the court will help their case, I wish them well in it; however, all possible measures should be taken to prevent MB&#8217;s identity from becoming public. Anything less is witness intimidation.</p>
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		<title>By: enough already</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/21/38037/comment-page-1#comment-108981</link>
		<dc:creator>enough already</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Oct 2011 06:49:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38037#comment-108981</guid>
		<description>WMDKitty,
Unfortunately, if we are to have a justice system at all, then there has to be a bias towards defense of the accused.

It is not fair, it is not satisfying, it is certainly not what we of the queer community experience as often as do the hateful Christians who attack us. None-the-less, it is the only way to prevent society from becoming a tyranny of the majority against the rights of the minority.

OK, I know that rings hollow given our sub-human status in the US. It&#039;s still the right thing to do, even if it doesn&#039;t hold for us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WMDKitty,<br />
Unfortunately, if we are to have a justice system at all, then there has to be a bias towards defense of the accused.</p>
<p>It is not fair, it is not satisfying, it is certainly not what we of the queer community experience as often as do the hateful Christians who attack us. None-the-less, it is the only way to prevent society from becoming a tyranny of the majority against the rights of the minority.</p>
<p>OK, I know that rings hollow given our sub-human status in the US. It&#8217;s still the right thing to do, even if it doesn&#8217;t hold for us.</p>
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		<title>By: WMDKitty</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/10/21/38037/comment-page-1#comment-108979</link>
		<dc:creator>WMDKitty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Oct 2011 06:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38037#comment-108979</guid>
		<description>The judge is wrong -- there is no valid legal reason to violate this young man&#039;s privacy. This is purely an intimidation tactic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The judge is wrong &#8212; there is no valid legal reason to violate this young man&#8217;s privacy. This is purely an intimidation tactic.</p>
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