Timothy, you don’t know this. You don’t know that no politician who pushes anti-gay policies wants us dead. Sure, a great majority of them won’t, because most folks need to think of themselves as good people, and most couldn’t do that if they supported genocide. However, there is a minority of truly nasty pieces of work out there, and probably a larger minority that can delude themselves into thinking they can support genocide but still be one of the good guys.

okie dokie

Sure. Maybe there is a politician out there that wants us dead.

Is that really your point? Seriously?

Okay, how about:

Hey, they may be prejudiced or mistaken or ignorant, but they don’t want you dead.* And the pastors don’t support the Ugandan death penalty.*

Is that better?

*(except maybe one who really does but has everyone fooled and whom we can’t name because we are just guessing here and have no examples to identify).

To a person what I heard was that they wanted out because they felt that they would never be “normal”, never be accepted and, MOST importantly, never BELONG.

Yes. I agree.

However, you are – I believe – caught up in indignation and anger at political cynicism and not seeing the big picture.

Yes, I agree that in general the Republican Party reflects that part of society which is less accepting. And I agree that rhetoric from that party contributes to the social rejection that kids feel. It is supported by, and fosters, attitudes that cause gay kids to feel rejected.

But how does this video contribute? Does it increase rejection or increase acceptance?

I think you’d have to agree that statements of acceptance and encouragement – even if cynical – are a good thing. They change the language, the culture, and even the starting point of contention.

You say, “No gay kid is going to reconsider ending it all just because of the knowledge that those who hate him and shun him don’t really want him dead.”

But I think you are wrong. This particular video may not influence a single person in that choice. But it does change the culture. And frankly, I think a direct message of “you are valued and wanted” is powerful.

If I could get every Republican politician to make it clear that gay kids are wanted, I’d do it. If Frothy Mix wanted to tell gay kids not to commit suicide, I’d bite my tongue, choke back my bile, and roll tape.

Also, while Republican rhetoric and hostile political action has greatly contributed to a social impression of rejection, we too have played a role. For all their wrong-headedness, they weren’t the ones who said that they hate gays or gay kids or that they want us dead.

If some kid out there thinks that all Republicans hate him, he didn’t hear that from the Republican Party and it’s extremely unlikely that he came to that conclusion based on vote counts. No, we were the ones who crafted that particular message. It was the gay community that equated votes on DADT or DOMA with hatred and death wishes.

I’m not excusing them. I’m not insisting they are sincere. I’m saying that I have bigger priorities here.

My bottom line: If we angrily insist that Republicans can’t give a message of acceptance because it’s cynical and they really really do hate us and they really really do want us dead…

and if some kid hears both the Senator saying “you have value” and us saying “he’s lying to you, he wants you dead”…

I very much hope he doesn’t believe us.

Tim, usually I’m the one arguing for nuance and moderation, but I disagree. They’re trying to score a cheap political point here — trying to look reasonable.

that’s certainly possible

This is nothing more than a cynical ploy. Trust me. They still want us dead.

Trust you? Why should I trust you? And, especially, why should I trust you that they want us dead?

Do you have inside knowledge about the desires of these politicians that I don’t have? Perhaps you bugged their homes? Or have paid spies?

Or are you asking me to set aside my experience, my knowledge, my years of interaction with Republican politicians, my observations about human nature, and my own judgment about what all of this means and instead rely on your assertion alone?

Because that’s a petty big task. And you’ll need something more than “trust me” to back it up.

I think it is important for kids to recognize that when a politician votes in an anti-gay way it doesn’t mean he hates you or wants you to die.

Sometimes as adults we skim over that and battle to the death over the differences. Kids don’t know if they haven’t been told: hey, they may be prejudices or mistaken or ignorant, but they don’t want you dead.

Timothy, you don’t know this. You don’t know that no politician who pushes anti-gay policies wants us dead. Sure, a great majority of them won’t, because most folks need to think of themselves as good people, and most couldn’t do that if they supported genocide. However, there is a minority of truly nasty pieces of work out there, and probably a larger minority that can delude themselves into thinking they can support genocide but still be one of the good guys.

Are you basing your blanket statement that no (presumably American) politician wants us dead on the fact that no politician has said they want us dead? If that’s your reasoning, with all due respect, it’s naive. Successful politicos generally know what they can get away with. In our current political climate, favoring “the death penalty for homosexuality” isn’t one of those things. But that doesn’t mean some of them aren’t thinking that way.

Going back to the discussion in the Thomas Sowell thread, can you truly say that none of the pastors of those most conservative of local churches is in favor of the death penalty provision in the Ugandan “Kill the Gays” bill? If no (and I don’t see how you could rationally answer yes), then then how can you be sure that some American politicians don’t also feel the same way?

Exactly, thank you for stating it so clearly.

If they really want our appreciation, they need to vote like they actually realize we’re real people with real lives who deserve the same rights.

It’s the PUBLIC policies that matter. Not the friendly face in front of you, while the knife is poised when you turn your back. I cannot possibly trust the very people who could DO something and make the necessary changes, but put their faces before the public as: “see, we’re really reasonable, compassionate people who don’t hate gay people.”

Gay people are being used over and over again as political fodder, whichever way the war is waged. When the result is STILL no legal protections, no outright support of policies that end discrimination, then it’s not EVER going to be enough.
These are crumbs, just CRUMBS being offered here.
And when we’re not satisfied or we call this gesture for exactly what it is, there is anger at us for not being happy and satisfied with those crumbs.

These same politicians know that gay people are voters too. They want our votes, patronage, campaign funds, and think their crumbs should be enough to buy them.
And then typically comes the back of the hand once they’ve gotten our support.
Yeah, I’m cynical and skeptical. Why shouldn’t we be?

No kid is going to be impressed that a person who works so hard to make him “other” and to make sure that he never really belongs don’t ACTUALLY want him dead. No gay kid is going to reconsider ending it all just because of the knowledge that those who hate him and shun him don’t really want him dead. It’s grasping at straws to try to make this stunt look noble.

The truth is, these pols know that these videos get a LOT of play right now. They also know that non-gays don’t REALLY pay attention to the details affecting the gay community. It gives them an opportunity to make a positive impression with moderates who aren’t paying attention, while feeding red meat in direct mailing literature to their base.

This is nothing more than a cynical ploy. Trust me. They still want us dead. They just don’t want your very reasonable suburban mother to know that.