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	<title>Comments on: CA Supremes get it wrong on representing the state</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/11/17/38982</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Carrie</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/11/17/38982/comment-page-1#comment-110542</link>
		<dc:creator>Carrie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2011 09:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38982#comment-110542</guid>
		<description>I think the problem with calling it a de facto veto by the executive branch is that this ignores the role of the judicial branch. The executive branch doesn&#039;t have the opportunity to decide whether or not to defend the law if the trial court hasn&#039;t ruled against it to begin with. If we conceptualize the voting public as a &quot;fourth branch&quot; of government, wouldn&#039;t it be more accurate to say that not allowing proponents to appeal is a check on that branch coming from the combined decisions of two branches (judicial and executive), rather than a veto power from one? Arguably, it might even be a check from all three other branches if you assume the ballot initiative was taken up in the first place because the legislature refused to pass the law. You can decide for yourself whether you think the actions of those two (or three) branches combined should have that checking power over the voters, but at least I think that&#039;s a more accurate way to frame the issue than only looking at the role of the executive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the problem with calling it a de facto veto by the executive branch is that this ignores the role of the judicial branch. The executive branch doesn&#8217;t have the opportunity to decide whether or not to defend the law if the trial court hasn&#8217;t ruled against it to begin with. If we conceptualize the voting public as a &#8220;fourth branch&#8221; of government, wouldn&#8217;t it be more accurate to say that not allowing proponents to appeal is a check on that branch coming from the combined decisions of two branches (judicial and executive), rather than a veto power from one? Arguably, it might even be a check from all three other branches if you assume the ballot initiative was taken up in the first place because the legislature refused to pass the law. You can decide for yourself whether you think the actions of those two (or three) branches combined should have that checking power over the voters, but at least I think that&#8217;s a more accurate way to frame the issue than only looking at the role of the executive.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark F.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/11/17/38982/comment-page-1#comment-110532</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2011 02:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38982#comment-110532</guid>
		<description>&quot;And if we are willing to recall Davis over DMV rates, it’s hard to see how Brown’s refusal to appeal the court decision was thwarting the people’s will when we went on to friggin vote him in as Governor.&quot;

Oh come now, a lot of people are not willing to vote someone out of office over just one issue.

I just fail to see the parade of horrors if every once in a while someone besides the state gets to defend an initiative in court. The courts have to rule on the arguments presented, not whether or not they like the attorneys who show up in court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And if we are willing to recall Davis over DMV rates, it’s hard to see how Brown’s refusal to appeal the court decision was thwarting the people’s will when we went on to friggin vote him in as Governor.&#8221;</p>
<p>Oh come now, a lot of people are not willing to vote someone out of office over just one issue.</p>
<p>I just fail to see the parade of horrors if every once in a while someone besides the state gets to defend an initiative in court. The courts have to rule on the arguments presented, not whether or not they like the attorneys who show up in court.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/11/17/38982/comment-page-1#comment-110518</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38982#comment-110518</guid>
		<description>Mark F,

If you&#039;re a Californian, you know what kind of nuts we have here drafting initiatives.  LaRouche is but an example.

Sure his initiatives didn&#039;t win at the polls.  But he could have.  And a court decision that would turn the defense of our state&#039;s interest over to Lyndon LaRouche - under any scenario - is one that is pretty scary.

Or ignore LaRouche.  Would you prefer that the proponents of 1986&#039;s Prop 63 (followed by 1988&#039;s Prop 227) or 1994&#039;s Prop 187 be the official caretakers of the interests of the state?  While the people who voted for those initiatives did not do so out of malice, I think that some of the proponents of those initiatives were unrepentantly racist.

For me the issue is pretty straight forward.  Initiative drafters answer to no one - statewide elected officials answer to the electorate.  

And while gerrymandering may have made it  impossible to recall a legislator, we still can remove a governor.  And if we are willing to recall Davis over DMV rates, it&#039;s hard to see how Brown&#039;s refusal to appeal the court decision was thwarting the people&#039;s will when we went on to friggin vote him in as Governor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark F,</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re a Californian, you know what kind of nuts we have here drafting initiatives.  LaRouche is but an example.</p>
<p>Sure his initiatives didn&#8217;t win at the polls.  But he could have.  And a court decision that would turn the defense of our state&#8217;s interest over to Lyndon LaRouche &#8211; under any scenario &#8211; is one that is pretty scary.</p>
<p>Or ignore LaRouche.  Would you prefer that the proponents of 1986&#8242;s Prop 63 (followed by 1988&#8242;s Prop 227) or 1994&#8242;s Prop 187 be the official caretakers of the interests of the state?  While the people who voted for those initiatives did not do so out of malice, I think that some of the proponents of those initiatives were unrepentantly racist.</p>
<p>For me the issue is pretty straight forward.  Initiative drafters answer to no one &#8211; statewide elected officials answer to the electorate.  </p>
<p>And while gerrymandering may have made it  impossible to recall a legislator, we still can remove a governor.  And if we are willing to recall Davis over DMV rates, it&#8217;s hard to see how Brown&#8217;s refusal to appeal the court decision was thwarting the people&#8217;s will when we went on to friggin vote him in as Governor.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark F.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/11/17/38982/comment-page-1#comment-110517</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 22:43:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38982#comment-110517</guid>
		<description>It also seems odd that people wouldn&#039;t want to push this case up to SCOTUS before we might get some GOP court appointments, assuming Obama is not reelected. A 2020 &quot;Gingrich Court&quot; with 1 or 2 liberals/moderates might not be who we want to present this case to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It also seems odd that people wouldn&#8217;t want to push this case up to SCOTUS before we might get some GOP court appointments, assuming Obama is not reelected. A 2020 &#8220;Gingrich Court&#8221; with 1 or 2 liberals/moderates might not be who we want to present this case to.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark F.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/11/17/38982/comment-page-1#comment-110516</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 22:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38982#comment-110516</guid>
		<description>&quot;On the other hand, if you are a long-time Californian, let me just say one word about who the Supremes have turned over our political appeal process: LaRouche.&quot;

You can do better than that. LaRouche was rebuffed at the polls and would have no standing since his initiatives never passed. FAIL.

In any case, the courts still retain the power to declare things unconstitutional. 

The court was correct in its decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;On the other hand, if you are a long-time Californian, let me just say one word about who the Supremes have turned over our political appeal process: LaRouche.&#8221;</p>
<p>You can do better than that. LaRouche was rebuffed at the polls and would have no standing since his initiatives never passed. FAIL.</p>
<p>In any case, the courts still retain the power to declare things unconstitutional. </p>
<p>The court was correct in its decision.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/11/17/38982/comment-page-1#comment-110513</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 21:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38982#comment-110513</guid>
		<description>These quislings need to go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These quislings need to go.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven in Oakley</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/11/17/38982/comment-page-1#comment-110511</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven in Oakley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38982#comment-110511</guid>
		<description>Timothy,
When the question of standing came up in this case my first reaction was to agree with you that it&#039;s the state&#039;s exclusive purview to defend or not defend court actions on its laws.

However, I think that does not serve the People of California well.  We have an initiative process because the People don&#039;t believe their government will always enact the will of the People.  That is the crux of the entire question of standing.  We already take things out of the government’s purview because we don&#039;t trust it.  How is this really any different?

In the end I think it&#039;s better for our community if the case goes forward and is answered by the courts.  That is what the court is there for:  to determine constitutionality of laws.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy,<br />
When the question of standing came up in this case my first reaction was to agree with you that it&#8217;s the state&#8217;s exclusive purview to defend or not defend court actions on its laws.</p>
<p>However, I think that does not serve the People of California well.  We have an initiative process because the People don&#8217;t believe their government will always enact the will of the People.  That is the crux of the entire question of standing.  We already take things out of the government’s purview because we don&#8217;t trust it.  How is this really any different?</p>
<p>In the end I think it&#8217;s better for our community if the case goes forward and is answered by the courts.  That is what the court is there for:  to determine constitutionality of laws.</p>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/11/17/38982/comment-page-1#comment-110510</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38982#comment-110510</guid>
		<description>dont laugh to much about the horse meat law... here in florida there were arrest last year down around miami because people were killing folks horses and butchering and selling the meat... then again it is florida!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dont laugh to much about the horse meat law&#8230; here in florida there were arrest last year down around miami because people were killing folks horses and butchering and selling the meat&#8230; then again it is florida!</p>
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		<title>By: Ben In Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/11/17/38982/comment-page-1#comment-110506</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben In Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:18:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38982#comment-110506</guid>
		<description>Mark I agree with you AND Timothy.

The original mariage decision was courageous. The state trial decision on overturning prop. 8, with its language about it being perfectly ok to &quot;carve out&quot; of equality a narrow slice of inequality was cowardly in the extreme, in my eye pretty much invalidating their reasoning and their credentials and credibility in their original decision FOR marriage equality.

I suspect-- but cannot prove-- that the recent Judicial elections in Iowa also played a part in this decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark I agree with you AND Timothy.</p>
<p>The original mariage decision was courageous. The state trial decision on overturning prop. 8, with its language about it being perfectly ok to &#8220;carve out&#8221; of equality a narrow slice of inequality was cowardly in the extreme, in my eye pretty much invalidating their reasoning and their credentials and credibility in their original decision FOR marriage equality.</p>
<p>I suspect&#8211; but cannot prove&#8211; that the recent Judicial elections in Iowa also played a part in this decision.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/11/17/38982/comment-page-1#comment-110505</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=38982#comment-110505</guid>
		<description>Mark,

The issue is whether the decision for appeal should be made by the Governor and Attorney General (elected representatives) or by an advocacy organization who answers to no one but their particular deity.

(Let me also note that &quot;Executive Branch&quot; in CA consists of Gov and Atty Gen., which may be of different political factions or ever different party - as was the case with Perry).

Jerry Brown refused to appeal and the people of the State had an opportunity to react and respond.  They immediately promoted him from Attorney General to Governor.

On the other hand, if you are a long-time Californian, let me just say one word about who the Supremes have turned over our political appeal process: LaRouche</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
<p>The issue is whether the decision for appeal should be made by the Governor and Attorney General (elected representatives) or by an advocacy organization who answers to no one but their particular deity.</p>
<p>(Let me also note that &#8220;Executive Branch&#8221; in CA consists of Gov and Atty Gen., which may be of different political factions or ever different party &#8211; as was the case with Perry).</p>
<p>Jerry Brown refused to appeal and the people of the State had an opportunity to react and respond.  They immediately promoted him from Attorney General to Governor.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if you are a long-time Californian, let me just say one word about who the Supremes have turned over our political appeal process: LaRouche</p>
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