I think what’s going on is that it’s by and large not happening at times and places where children or straight families are.

To follow on generally with what Timothy is talking about, one of the big ploys of cops is to claim “complaints from citizens” when they want to do enforcement of just about any kind of community morals (for instance supposedly too explicit displays in store windows). Incredibly often, the complaints turn out to be made up. So just because some cops, who are very, very often hangup machos, SAY something is going on doesn’t make it true. Based on their past behavior, the police don’t deserve to be automatically trusted and believed in matters like this.

No I do not share your support for the police “sweeping” parks. My views are as stated in the commentary. Your views appear to be the opposite.

You are, of course, entitled to believe that the men whom the ACLU found to have been baselessly arrested really were guilty. You may think that the minister who appeared to protest the false arrests is just a liar. You can plug your ears to the evidence of police abuse we’ve raised over and over at BTB. Believe anything you like.

But, no, we do not concur.

Cold comfort to those who’ve been falsely arrested and as Timothy said been paraded in front of the community for public shaming and condemnation. The abuse has already been committed by the time the person is arrested and having the court dismiss the case doesn’t undo the punishment that has already occurred. Plus to a degree the police are de facto judge and jury when they make an arrest and that arrest tilts the system against defendents as courts tend to assume whatever the officer alleges is correct and innocent people often are convicted by the court anyway on that basis. You don’t just get to say its no problem if cops falsely arrest gay men in parks because the courts will sort it out, it is a problem and there’s no guarentee the courts won’t simply go along with whatever the cop portrays the situation to have been and we’ve seen time and time again they sometimes grossly distort or outright lie about what has gone on – look at how the police handled themselves in that police murder of the homeless man.

Straightgrandmother said “I do not believe that cops randomly arrest people for holding hands in non problem parks. I don’t believe that.”.

Well, you’re naive and understandably so. If you were an LGBT person all your life and interacted regularly with LGBT people and followed the news of our community you’ve have seen this sort of police abuse over and over:

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/06/28/12635

StraightGrandmother= And neither would I. Which is why the cops go in to clean out the parks of behavior not acceptable to the community. And again I have nothing against hand holding, but if you look at those listings I posted, those men are not going to our parks to hold hands. This is a fact. And imagine all the neighbors who live around that park the anger and resentment they feel over what goes on in that park and now they can’t safely use and enjoy it with their children. Instead of being able to take a nice bike ride with your child on a bike path in the park, you are now on an urban sidewalk.

I am satisfied Timothy that you have answered honestly that you would not take your children to a park that was polluted with men having sex with men in the bushes. Now imagine if it is your only park within walking distance.

And here one more time I’ll give you what you want. No person should be falsely arrested. The courts will sort it out.

I don’t know Tim. I think I see an equal injustice. We are not talking about ONE picnic here.I feel it is horribly unjust to deny all the neighborhood children the right to safely use a park, to not be able to use a local park they can walk to throughout their entire childhood, to play baseball in the unsafe streets instead and never being able to have the wide open spaces to fly a kite, as equal to the injustice of a gay man being improperly arrested for lewd behavior in a park. What I am saying here is BOTH are unfair and BOTH are wrong. And from my point of view each are harmed severely.

Tim = Because I don’t have the luxury of only caring about what effects straight people.

StraightGrandother= It is not just straight couples and their families who live around those parks. The children of gay and lesbian couples suffer equally as much as the kids from heterosexually headed homes. So this is not just caring about straight people as you say. It is caring about children gay/straight/black/white no matter their parents sexual orientation.

Tim = “would you take children to a park where they would watch you get arrested for holding hands? And which do you think would be more traumatizing?”

StraightGrandmother= I would not be in that park in the first place. A park where the cops are conducting sweeps for men having sex with men in the park. So my kids would never see me get arrested in a park for holding hands. I do not believe that cops randomly arrest people for holding hands in non problem parks. I don’t believe that. And in problem parks you should not get arrested for holding hands. However where those two hands are located on a person’s body when they are holding them may constitute lewd behavior. You would have to look at it case by case. I would feel the exact same way and want the cops to sweep if it was heterosexual prostitutes taking over a park.

And again, the cops have to catch you in the act, I do NOT support falsely arresting people for crimes they have not committed. So please stop saying “you have no concern about gay couples being arrested for the same innocent acts of affection heterosexual couples perform in public all the time without incident. Got it.” It is not true. I do NOT want people falsely arrested. I also DO understand and SUPPORT the police sweeps of parks to arrest people for lewd behavior and I insist they do it according to the law. Is that strong enough for you? They should probably use hidden cameras rather than entrapment, it is more fair and more just. Then they could catch those lewd heterosexual acts as well. Sweet :) if they prosecute one and not the other then that is bias and discrimination.

I am satisfied knowing that Tim also would not take his children to parks that are polluted with men having sex with men. Like me, I am sure he would not take them to parks that were polluted with heterosexual prostitutes doing tricks in the public bathrooms and bushes. That is an honest answer and I concur. We would want that swept out of our parks.

I am also a woman, not a man.

I’m sure some cruising does go on in some parks, however you are missing the entire point of this post – innocent people are being arrested simply for being gay and the prostitution law is merely an excuse to do so.

You’re freaking out over something you’ve never encountered and using this as an excuse to ignore police abusing their powers.

Now you’ve promised to rest your case twice, so how about actually doing so this time? We’ve heard you, we agree people having sex in parks deserve to be arrested however you have no concern about gay couples being arrested for the same innocent acts of affection heterosexual couples perform in public all the time without incident. Got it.

Are you really sure that you want to compare you not being able to go to a park with people being denied their civil rights? Do you really want to suggest that false arrests are not as important as your picnic?

Because to me that is one of the most selfish notions I’ve come across recently.

And to answer your question: no I would not take children to a park where cruising is going on.

But in return answer this: would you take children to a park where they would watch you get arrested for holding hands? And which do you think would be more traumatizing?

Because I don’t have the luxury of only caring about what effects straight people. So I cant just dismiss it like you have.

So let me challenge this statement, do you have children?

Because I do and I have grandchildren. and once you are a parent or grandparent you protect those children to the nines. You don’t know me, you can’t tell me that I am over reacting. I am not over reacting. Where I lived one park was really really bad with men having sex with men and I was denied taking my children there in order to protect them. Do you have children Pyriya? You are not sure what to make of the link? I think you are playing stupid. It is right there for you to see, posting after posting after posting, let’s hook up at a public park. My God man at least be honest.

Certain parks in certain communities ARE a magnet for men seeking to find men to have sex in the park. Why don’t you just be honest and admit that. A breath of honesty would certainly be appreciated. AND I only showed one link. I never saw men having sex in the park because I never took my kids to that magnet park which is very well known. I have given evidence of my story and you are poo-pooing it. You would do better to simply admit it is a problem as evidenced by the facts. You loose credibility when you refuse to address the facts that you can print out for yourself. Listing after listing after listing after listing of men looking to hook up at a public park which I provided, IS EVIDENCE! This is not my imagination or some urban myth. it is the God’s truth, deny it at the peril of your credibility.