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	<title>Comments on: Thomas More Law Center &#8211; a rare glimpse at evil</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/12/19/39872</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/12/19/39872/comment-page-1#comment-112740</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2011 20:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=39872#comment-112740</guid>
		<description>No matter how stunningly ignorant, not well thought out, and poorly reasoned their arguments are; and even as offensive as they are to my concept of human dignity and life; I refuse to call these folks evil. 

Because, for starters, evil is complex. For example, the definition you cited in the article is the first half of the first paragraph of a 6000+ word article discussing evil in the Catholic Context. And, in my opinion, the definition does not make sense as provided (truncated &amp; out of context). 

Evil is an exceptionally complex thing. Take evil actions for example. Evil Actions are seemingly easy to define. One working definition could be an Evil Action is one undertaken with the knowledge that the action will bring direct harm to another individual. Murder is an evil action. The Pinto scandal was an evil action. But even Evil Actions are more complex than first glance would lead one to assume. Take the old train shoving ethical puzzle for example: http://news.yahoo.com/kill-one-person-save-five-research-classic-debate-090500884.html

Further, how do you define harm? What is the threshold of harm that must be crossed in order for an action to become evil? 

Evil People are even harder to pin down. For the life of me I cannot come up with a good working definition. Even if we limit the class of &quot;Evil People&quot;  to &quot;the people who commit evil acts&quot;, which actors can be considered Evil People? Is the accountant who made the terrible (but to him, abstract) cost-benefit analysis an evil person? Is the executive who signed off on the analysis an evil person? Does it make a difference if he&#039;s just incompetent and signs everything that&#039;s placed before him? Or is he an Evil Person, regardless?

In the case of the above I think the Thomas More folks are not well informed and the institutions which should keep them well informed consistently fail them by placing greater emphasis on conforming to their beliefs then on telling them the truth: http://wthrockmorton.com/2011/12/07/the-evangelical-blackout-of-research-on-sexual-orientation/

The hazards of yellow journalism in the internet age, I suppose. But not evidence of willful lying. 

Finally their very actions in filing the complaint indicate the problems which arise when you start defining people as evil. I have to imagine they conceive of themselves as well meaning folks who think of &quot;Gay People&quot; as Evil People. In viewing gay people as evil people the opposition shuts down any hope of empathy. Why? Because they view us as evil: so why learn about us or try to see things from our perspective? If they abandon the news-sources that conform to their worldview in seeking other objective opinions then haven&#039;t they abetted evil? Aren&#039;t mainstream news organizations evil for not telling the &quot;truth&quot; about homosexuality? World Net Daily does, why can&#039;t the New York Times? Oh, because the Times is &quot;Evil&quot;; or has been betrayed by &quot;Evil&quot; or is co-opted by &quot;Evil&quot;. So it makes perfect sense to an echo-chambered-evangelical(Catholic) that gay people are inherently ashamed of existing because they are inherently Evil. The calculation goes: they know in their subconscious soul that they are evil pawns of Satan so they... fill in the offensive blanks yourself. 

So lets not stoop to their level and shut out any meaningful attempts to understand their actions. If we just label them as Evil; then we think we understand their motivation. They&#039;re motivated by Evil or hatred or pure rank animus. But they&#039;re not. They&#039;re motivated by fear (I&#039;m going to expand on this underlying motivation on my blog; to launch shortly) and derivatives of the same.

Which brings me to the: Why? as in Why Write &amp; Post this article? There is no way these clowns are going to convince any court to take their side. As Theo rightly points out, their legal strategies boarder on incompetence. Why bring this up at this juncture(other than to try to convince people to your ideological position that &quot;evil exists&quot; and is easily identifiable)? If these folks are evil who else is? Who isn&#039;t? And Why Does It Matter?

If you convince us that we&#039;re dealing with evil people; what good does that do for our cause?

And why is it important to point out people in the opposition that you believe to be evil?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No matter how stunningly ignorant, not well thought out, and poorly reasoned their arguments are; and even as offensive as they are to my concept of human dignity and life; I refuse to call these folks evil. </p>
<p>Because, for starters, evil is complex. For example, the definition you cited in the article is the first half of the first paragraph of a 6000+ word article discussing evil in the Catholic Context. And, in my opinion, the definition does not make sense as provided (truncated &amp; out of context). </p>
<p>Evil is an exceptionally complex thing. Take evil actions for example. Evil Actions are seemingly easy to define. One working definition could be an Evil Action is one undertaken with the knowledge that the action will bring direct harm to another individual. Murder is an evil action. The Pinto scandal was an evil action. But even Evil Actions are more complex than first glance would lead one to assume. Take the old train shoving ethical puzzle for example: <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/kill-one-person-save-five-research-classic-debate-090500884.html" rel="nofollow">http://news.yahoo.com/kill-one-person-save-five-research-classic-debate-090500884.html</a></p>
<p>Further, how do you define harm? What is the threshold of harm that must be crossed in order for an action to become evil? </p>
<p>Evil People are even harder to pin down. For the life of me I cannot come up with a good working definition. Even if we limit the class of &#8220;Evil People&#8221;  to &#8220;the people who commit evil acts&#8221;, which actors can be considered Evil People? Is the accountant who made the terrible (but to him, abstract) cost-benefit analysis an evil person? Is the executive who signed off on the analysis an evil person? Does it make a difference if he&#8217;s just incompetent and signs everything that&#8217;s placed before him? Or is he an Evil Person, regardless?</p>
<p>In the case of the above I think the Thomas More folks are not well informed and the institutions which should keep them well informed consistently fail them by placing greater emphasis on conforming to their beliefs then on telling them the truth: <a href="http://wthrockmorton.com/2011/12/07/the-evangelical-blackout-of-research-on-sexual-orientation/" rel="nofollow">http://wthrockmorton.com/2011/12/07/the-evangelical-blackout-of-research-on-sexual-orientation/</a></p>
<p>The hazards of yellow journalism in the internet age, I suppose. But not evidence of willful lying. </p>
<p>Finally their very actions in filing the complaint indicate the problems which arise when you start defining people as evil. I have to imagine they conceive of themselves as well meaning folks who think of &#8220;Gay People&#8221; as Evil People. In viewing gay people as evil people the opposition shuts down any hope of empathy. Why? Because they view us as evil: so why learn about us or try to see things from our perspective? If they abandon the news-sources that conform to their worldview in seeking other objective opinions then haven&#8217;t they abetted evil? Aren&#8217;t mainstream news organizations evil for not telling the &#8220;truth&#8221; about homosexuality? World Net Daily does, why can&#8217;t the New York Times? Oh, because the Times is &#8220;Evil&#8221;; or has been betrayed by &#8220;Evil&#8221; or is co-opted by &#8220;Evil&#8221;. So it makes perfect sense to an echo-chambered-evangelical(Catholic) that gay people are inherently ashamed of existing because they are inherently Evil. The calculation goes: they know in their subconscious soul that they are evil pawns of Satan so they&#8230; fill in the offensive blanks yourself. </p>
<p>So lets not stoop to their level and shut out any meaningful attempts to understand their actions. If we just label them as Evil; then we think we understand their motivation. They&#8217;re motivated by Evil or hatred or pure rank animus. But they&#8217;re not. They&#8217;re motivated by fear (I&#8217;m going to expand on this underlying motivation on my blog; to launch shortly) and derivatives of the same.</p>
<p>Which brings me to the: Why? as in Why Write &amp; Post this article? There is no way these clowns are going to convince any court to take their side. As Theo rightly points out, their legal strategies boarder on incompetence. Why bring this up at this juncture(other than to try to convince people to your ideological position that &#8220;evil exists&#8221; and is easily identifiable)? If these folks are evil who else is? Who isn&#8217;t? And Why Does It Matter?</p>
<p>If you convince us that we&#8217;re dealing with evil people; what good does that do for our cause?</p>
<p>And why is it important to point out people in the opposition that you believe to be evil?</p>
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		<title>By: Amicus</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/12/19/39872/comment-page-1#comment-112607</link>
		<dc:creator>Amicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 07:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=39872#comment-112607</guid>
		<description>There are Catholic madrasses a plenty in the USA.  If you are &quot;devout&quot;, use &#039;em.

Can&#039;t support a &quot;Tyler&#039;s Army&quot; t-shirt.  A plain purple t-shirt (or dress shirt) is fine.

Publicizing the events ex post facto (Facebook) was a poor choice, probably, if only because no one can agree what exactly happened that day in the classroom.

Teachers taking a day off to show non-curriculum videos is a bad idea.

People designing programs of this kind might do well to understand that religious kids need a kind of help, too.  For instance, rather than a &#039;suspension&#039;, it might have been better to send them to a classroom with other &#039;religious exception&#039; kids and let them talk out their feelings, with someone who is trained to lead that kind of discussion.  (Most of these kids learn the hate from their parents, and a summary approach to disabusing them of it is not helpful.)

People of goodwill solve these problems.  Most of these first amendment cases are colossal wastes of time and money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are Catholic madrasses a plenty in the USA.  If you are &#8220;devout&#8221;, use &#8216;em.</p>
<p>Can&#8217;t support a &#8220;Tyler&#8217;s Army&#8221; t-shirt.  A plain purple t-shirt (or dress shirt) is fine.</p>
<p>Publicizing the events ex post facto (Facebook) was a poor choice, probably, if only because no one can agree what exactly happened that day in the classroom.</p>
<p>Teachers taking a day off to show non-curriculum videos is a bad idea.</p>
<p>People designing programs of this kind might do well to understand that religious kids need a kind of help, too.  For instance, rather than a &#8216;suspension&#8217;, it might have been better to send them to a classroom with other &#8216;religious exception&#8217; kids and let them talk out their feelings, with someone who is trained to lead that kind of discussion.  (Most of these kids learn the hate from their parents, and a summary approach to disabusing them of it is not helpful.)</p>
<p>People of goodwill solve these problems.  Most of these first amendment cases are colossal wastes of time and money.</p>
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		<title>By: Erin</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/12/19/39872/comment-page-1#comment-112563</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=39872#comment-112563</guid>
		<description>I wish I could make these kids see that if they&#039;d just stick it out for a little while, they can be ushered off into the adult world where they&#039;re free to meet people like them and not everyone is so uber about every part of their appearance and identity. If the kid I was could grow up to have decent self esteem and find happiness with a beautiful, kind, and intelligent partner, then it can happen for them too. I think these IGB videos are helpful, but it&#039;s clear for some kids, they&#039;re not helpful. That is frustrating and heartbreaking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish I could make these kids see that if they&#8217;d just stick it out for a little while, they can be ushered off into the adult world where they&#8217;re free to meet people like them and not everyone is so uber about every part of their appearance and identity. If the kid I was could grow up to have decent self esteem and find happiness with a beautiful, kind, and intelligent partner, then it can happen for them too. I think these IGB videos are helpful, but it&#8217;s clear for some kids, they&#8217;re not helpful. That is frustrating and heartbreaking.</p>
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		<title>By: Regan DuCasse</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/12/19/39872/comment-page-1#comment-112562</link>
		<dc:creator>Regan DuCasse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=39872#comment-112562</guid>
		<description>Erin: your post was wonderful. I think I can speak for everyone that the length of a post is never a problem. I loved that you could and did share your story.

    I think we&#039;ve all noted in all the NOISE about religious conviction driving such attitudes, NOWHERE in any of it are they as strenuous and committed in this simple teaching: To treat others as they&#039;d want to be treated.

  That is from where the most moral and ethical of decisions and actions flow. THAT is why is such a profound directive of Christ himself. 
We might forgive the occasional failure of being able to think through that directive first, and with full consciousness.

   But in this particular subject there is ample and profound opportunity to wonder, to question, to engage that directive when someone gay is crying out in PAIN over the actions such Christians have taken.

 But all we get are excuses, blaming their target, denials and obfuscation in which to hide or shield their motives and their result.

    I don&#039;t think I&#039;ve seen MORE moral cowardice and intellectual and outright dishonesty than that which comes from people using their religious belief to commit injustice. And all without LISTENING, not EVER, to those they hurt.  Nor to ASK after the needs of their gay brother and to see if being TRUE to the test of the pebble in the shoe, might actually do more good than harm.

  They don&#039;t like being called bigots.
Well, cowards, liars, control freaks, victim card players bearing false compassion are good names too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erin: your post was wonderful. I think I can speak for everyone that the length of a post is never a problem. I loved that you could and did share your story.</p>
<p>    I think we&#8217;ve all noted in all the NOISE about religious conviction driving such attitudes, NOWHERE in any of it are they as strenuous and committed in this simple teaching: To treat others as they&#8217;d want to be treated.</p>
<p>  That is from where the most moral and ethical of decisions and actions flow. THAT is why is such a profound directive of Christ himself.<br />
We might forgive the occasional failure of being able to think through that directive first, and with full consciousness.</p>
<p>   But in this particular subject there is ample and profound opportunity to wonder, to question, to engage that directive when someone gay is crying out in PAIN over the actions such Christians have taken.</p>
<p> But all we get are excuses, blaming their target, denials and obfuscation in which to hide or shield their motives and their result.</p>
<p>    I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve seen MORE moral cowardice and intellectual and outright dishonesty than that which comes from people using their religious belief to commit injustice. And all without LISTENING, not EVER, to those they hurt.  Nor to ASK after the needs of their gay brother and to see if being TRUE to the test of the pebble in the shoe, might actually do more good than harm.</p>
<p>  They don&#8217;t like being called bigots.<br />
Well, cowards, liars, control freaks, victim card players bearing false compassion are good names too.</p>
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		<title>By: StraightGrandmother</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/12/19/39872/comment-page-1#comment-112559</link>
		<dc:creator>StraightGrandmother</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 17:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=39872#comment-112559</guid>
		<description>Despicable, they are simply despicable! This latest twist of many (not all) Christians as portraying themselves as victims is truly revolting. &quot;My religious beliefs trump your civil rights, and common decency&quot;  makes me apoplectic. Religion is a choice! You have to be taught to hate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Despicable, they are simply despicable! This latest twist of many (not all) Christians as portraying themselves as victims is truly revolting. &#8220;My religious beliefs trump your civil rights, and common decency&#8221;  makes me apoplectic. Religion is a choice! You have to be taught to hate.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/12/19/39872/comment-page-1#comment-112555</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 16:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=39872#comment-112555</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”&lt;/i&gt;

I love that, Lynn.  In other words there&#039;s all manner of just discrimination against gays, in fact one can discriminate against gays anyway one wants as long as one defines that discrimination as just.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”</i></p>
<p>I love that, Lynn.  In other words there&#8217;s all manner of just discrimination against gays, in fact one can discriminate against gays anyway one wants as long as one defines that discrimination as just.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynn David</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/12/19/39872/comment-page-1#comment-112554</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 16:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=39872#comment-112554</guid>
		<description>McDowell should launch an affirmative defense, the kid didn&#039;t know his own religion.     The Roman Catholic catechism specifically says about gays: &quot;&lt;i&gt;they must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided&lt;/i&gt;.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>McDowell should launch an affirmative defense, the kid didn&#8217;t know his own religion.     The Roman Catholic catechism specifically says about gays: &#8220;<i>they must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided</i>.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/12/19/39872/comment-page-1#comment-112551</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 16:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=39872#comment-112551</guid>
		<description>Timothy said &quot;[evil] is a term that is fraught with religious overtones. For our secular readers, it can seem gothic or irrelevant to modern discourse. Comical, even.

Not to me.  I don&#039;t know where you get that from.  There is evil and I do what I can to end it.

Erin, thanks for sharing your story with us.  I&#039;m sorry it took you so long (as it did many of us) for you to accept yourself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy said &#8220;[evil] is a term that is fraught with religious overtones. For our secular readers, it can seem gothic or irrelevant to modern discourse. Comical, even.</p>
<p>Not to me.  I don&#8217;t know where you get that from.  There is evil and I do what I can to end it.</p>
<p>Erin, thanks for sharing your story with us.  I&#8217;m sorry it took you so long (as it did many of us) for you to accept yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/12/19/39872/comment-page-1#comment-112550</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 16:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=39872#comment-112550</guid>
		<description>Erin,

No that was NOT too long. It was beautiful. 

Jay,

Thanks for the spelling correction.  

I did think about Trevor&#039;s concern, but as the piece focuses primarily on TMLC, and presents the kids cumulatively, I think it avoids creating &#039;heroes&#039; and - I hope - does not contribute to a copycat effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erin,</p>
<p>No that was NOT too long. It was beautiful. </p>
<p>Jay,</p>
<p>Thanks for the spelling correction.  </p>
<p>I did think about Trevor&#8217;s concern, but as the piece focuses primarily on TMLC, and presents the kids cumulatively, I think it avoids creating &#8216;heroes&#8217; and &#8211; I hope &#8211; does not contribute to a copycat effect.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Jonson</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/12/19/39872/comment-page-1#comment-112543</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Jonson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:28:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=39872#comment-112543</guid>
		<description>The Thomas More (misspelled as Moore here) is indeed an evil place. I am somewhat surprised, however, given the knock you gave Lady GaGa for dedicated a song to one of the suicides that you are rehearsing the names of these kids here. Your theory was that focusing on the individuals would have the effect of making heroes out of the victims and that that would encourage copycats. I don&#039;t know whether that is true or not, but I think that the Trevor Project and other suicide-prevention groups have also made that point. In any case, I think you should be consistent. These incidents are so painful. I don&#039;t think we should, even inadvertently, contribute to the problem. But thanks for bringing attention to the Thomas More idiots.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Thomas More (misspelled as Moore here) is indeed an evil place. I am somewhat surprised, however, given the knock you gave Lady GaGa for dedicated a song to one of the suicides that you are rehearsing the names of these kids here. Your theory was that focusing on the individuals would have the effect of making heroes out of the victims and that that would encourage copycats. I don&#8217;t know whether that is true or not, but I think that the Trevor Project and other suicide-prevention groups have also made that point. In any case, I think you should be consistent. These incidents are so painful. I don&#8217;t think we should, even inadvertently, contribute to the problem. But thanks for bringing attention to the Thomas More idiots.</p>
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