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	<title>Comments on: A Christian question</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/06/41701</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/06/41701/comment-page-1#comment-116961</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Interesting about the chimps and bonobos. Maybe humans, having higher development, are more subject to persuasion, tradition, greed, and logical analysis all of which can push one closer or further from sharing resources.&quot;.

Could be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Interesting about the chimps and bonobos. Maybe humans, having higher development, are more subject to persuasion, tradition, greed, and logical analysis all of which can push one closer or further from sharing resources.&#8221;.</p>
<p>Could be.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/06/41701/comment-page-1#comment-116960</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:41:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=41701#comment-116960</guid>
		<description>Interesting about the chimps and bonobos. Maybe humans, having higher development, are more subject to persuasion, tradition, greed, and logical analysis all of which can push one closer or further from sharing resources. 

And, though I know you aren&#039;t much find of religion, it too plays a role - sometimes negative, sometimes positive. 

It&#039;s interesting to note that one of the stories Christians misinterpret to justify bigotry, Sodom, was originally a cautionary tale about inhospitality.   Perhaps had Sodom been populated by bonobos rather than chimps, so to speak, gay folk would have less problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting about the chimps and bonobos. Maybe humans, having higher development, are more subject to persuasion, tradition, greed, and logical analysis all of which can push one closer or further from sharing resources. </p>
<p>And, though I know you aren&#8217;t much find of religion, it too plays a role &#8211; sometimes negative, sometimes positive. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting to note that one of the stories Christians misinterpret to justify bigotry, Sodom, was originally a cautionary tale about inhospitality.   Perhaps had Sodom been populated by bonobos rather than chimps, so to speak, gay folk would have less problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/06/41701/comment-page-1#comment-116953</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 15:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=41701#comment-116953</guid>
		<description>Timothy, as written history only goes back 6000 years or so, it tells us nothing about the morality of the vast majority of the history of the human race.  

I watched an interesting TV program on the emotions in animals.  On the part on Chimpanzees and Bonobos (human&#039;s closest relatives) they did some experiements to test to see if they had a sense of fair play.  They put two chimps in cages side by side and trained them to do a simple task for a reward, in this case a slice of cucumber.  The chimps did the task and ate their cucumber slice happily.  Then the researchers mixed it up and gave the chimp in the right cage a strawberry instead, but the one in the left cage the cucumber slice.  The chimp in the left cage noticed his companion getting the much more  desirable strawberry and threw his cucumber slice back at the researcher demonstrating he had a concept of fairness.

The researchers performed the same experiment with Bonobos with the Bonobo in the left cage also refusing to eat his cucumber slice after seeing his companion in the right cage getting a strawberry.  The difference was that the companion in the right cage, noticing the unfairness also refused to eat the strawberry showing not only a sense of fair play, but empathy.

Chimps will share food within their tribe but not with strangers from another tribe who they will sometimes attack and kill.  Bonobos on the other hand in encountering a stranger from another tribe will never attack and kill but will in fact share food with the stranger from another tribe.  It&#039;s difficult to believe that modern humans throughout our 200,000 year history had a less advanced morality than our closest relatives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy, as written history only goes back 6000 years or so, it tells us nothing about the morality of the vast majority of the history of the human race.  </p>
<p>I watched an interesting TV program on the emotions in animals.  On the part on Chimpanzees and Bonobos (human&#8217;s closest relatives) they did some experiements to test to see if they had a sense of fair play.  They put two chimps in cages side by side and trained them to do a simple task for a reward, in this case a slice of cucumber.  The chimps did the task and ate their cucumber slice happily.  Then the researchers mixed it up and gave the chimp in the right cage a strawberry instead, but the one in the left cage the cucumber slice.  The chimp in the left cage noticed his companion getting the much more  desirable strawberry and threw his cucumber slice back at the researcher demonstrating he had a concept of fairness.</p>
<p>The researchers performed the same experiment with Bonobos with the Bonobo in the left cage also refusing to eat his cucumber slice after seeing his companion in the right cage getting a strawberry.  The difference was that the companion in the right cage, noticing the unfairness also refused to eat the strawberry showing not only a sense of fair play, but empathy.</p>
<p>Chimps will share food within their tribe but not with strangers from another tribe who they will sometimes attack and kill.  Bonobos on the other hand in encountering a stranger from another tribe will never attack and kill but will in fact share food with the stranger from another tribe.  It&#8217;s difficult to believe that modern humans throughout our 200,000 year history had a less advanced morality than our closest relatives.</p>
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		<title>By: Loretta</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/06/41701/comment-page-1#comment-116900</link>
		<dc:creator>Loretta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 02:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=41701#comment-116900</guid>
		<description>Not to ne flip, but if people hate gays so much why do the heterosexual keep producing them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to ne flip, but if people hate gays so much why do the heterosexual keep producing them?</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/06/41701/comment-page-1#comment-116895</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 01:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=41701#comment-116895</guid>
		<description>Priya Lynn,

Perhaps.  But it seems to me that history suggests that the social rules didn&#039;t extend beyond the boundaries of the social unit.  It wasn&#039;t &quot;stealing&quot; to go into the foreigners land and take his sheep or his land.  It wasn&#039;t murder to kill those who tried to stop you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Priya Lynn,</p>
<p>Perhaps.  But it seems to me that history suggests that the social rules didn&#8217;t extend beyond the boundaries of the social unit.  It wasn&#8217;t &#8220;stealing&#8221; to go into the foreigners land and take his sheep or his land.  It wasn&#8217;t murder to kill those who tried to stop you.</p>
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		<title>By: Erin</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/06/41701/comment-page-1#comment-116889</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 01:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=41701#comment-116889</guid>
		<description>Greed is a powerful motivator, but it also takes down societies. The Roman Empire became too large and stretched itself too thin. It is hard to keep all of that territory successfully defended generation after generation. The revisionist history about societies crumbling because they rejected Christianity and/or accepted homosexuals is just absolutely, utterly ridiculous on so many levels. I can&#039;t be kind about the stunning amount of ignorance it takes to make statements like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greed is a powerful motivator, but it also takes down societies. The Roman Empire became too large and stretched itself too thin. It is hard to keep all of that territory successfully defended generation after generation. The revisionist history about societies crumbling because they rejected Christianity and/or accepted homosexuals is just absolutely, utterly ridiculous on so many levels. I can&#8217;t be kind about the stunning amount of ignorance it takes to make statements like that.</p>
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		<title>By: Erin</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/06/41701/comment-page-1#comment-116888</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 01:02:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=41701#comment-116888</guid>
		<description>I won&#039;t disagree with you there, Timothy. The Europeans who took over by force and enslaved the Native people were motivated by greed. They simply used the popular religious beliefs of Europeans at the time to justify their actions. They told everyone they were the civilized and the Native people were the savages who needed to be controlled and indoctrinated into their faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I won&#8217;t disagree with you there, Timothy. The Europeans who took over by force and enslaved the Native people were motivated by greed. They simply used the popular religious beliefs of Europeans at the time to justify their actions. They told everyone they were the civilized and the Native people were the savages who needed to be controlled and indoctrinated into their faith.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/06/41701/comment-page-1#comment-116886</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 00:49:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=41701#comment-116886</guid>
		<description>&quot;But stealing and murdering being inherently wrong when applied universally to all humans probably is a fairly recent notion.&quot;.

I very much doubt it.  Given that people thought it was wrong in their tribe its highly unlikely that most people didn&#039;t generalize this to all people.  Prohibitions on murder and stealing was a matter of self-interest for all people, not just tribal leaders.  Cooperation is evolved into people for hundreds of thousands of years and a certain morality is inherent in that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But stealing and murdering being inherently wrong when applied universally to all humans probably is a fairly recent notion.&#8221;.</p>
<p>I very much doubt it.  Given that people thought it was wrong in their tribe its highly unlikely that most people didn&#8217;t generalize this to all people.  Prohibitions on murder and stealing was a matter of self-interest for all people, not just tribal leaders.  Cooperation is evolved into people for hundreds of thousands of years and a certain morality is inherent in that.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/06/41701/comment-page-1#comment-116878</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 00:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=41701#comment-116878</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Humans in our present state have been around for about 200,000 years. Do you honestly think we’d have survived as a species if no one knew it was wrong to steal or murder until a few thousand years ago? Of course not.&lt;/i&gt;

Well... yes and no.

Certainly inner-tribe prohibitions on stealing or murdering was probably a matter of self-interest from the leader(s).  But stealing and murdering being inherently wrong when applied universally to all humans probably is a fairly recent notion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Humans in our present state have been around for about 200,000 years. Do you honestly think we’d have survived as a species if no one knew it was wrong to steal or murder until a few thousand years ago? Of course not.</i></p>
<p>Well&#8230; yes and no.</p>
<p>Certainly inner-tribe prohibitions on stealing or murdering was probably a matter of self-interest from the leader(s).  But stealing and murdering being inherently wrong when applied universally to all humans probably is a fairly recent notion.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/06/41701/comment-page-1#comment-116876</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 23:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=41701#comment-116876</guid>
		<description>Erin,

Yes.  But that is not just the story of Columbus, it&#039;s the story of humans.  Christian, pagan, or whatever.

The Powerful Invader story can be seen in almost every local and with almost every culture.  &quot;We were here first&quot; has almost never won the argument when presented to people who want or need what you have.

And few who suffer it can claim unfairness too loudly.  Often they were simply the descendants of those who displaced or killed the people who were there before them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erin,</p>
<p>Yes.  But that is not just the story of Columbus, it&#8217;s the story of humans.  Christian, pagan, or whatever.</p>
<p>The Powerful Invader story can be seen in almost every local and with almost every culture.  &#8220;We were here first&#8221; has almost never won the argument when presented to people who want or need what you have.</p>
<p>And few who suffer it can claim unfairness too loudly.  Often they were simply the descendants of those who displaced or killed the people who were there before them.</p>
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