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	<title>Comments on: Goldstein to Christie on impending veto</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/17/42126</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Keppler</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/17/42126/comment-page-1#comment-118004</link>
		<dc:creator>Keppler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 06:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=42126#comment-118004</guid>
		<description>Yes, Christie will &quot;evolve&quot; someday, when his policies get in the way of his electability. Suddenly he&#039;ll &quot;regret&quot; his veto publicly, and expect that all will be forgiven. I, however, will remember his opportunism, his cowardice, and will remind my friends that this was a legislator more interested in doing what was good for himself than for his state or his society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Christie will &#8220;evolve&#8221; someday, when his policies get in the way of his electability. Suddenly he&#8217;ll &#8220;regret&#8221; his veto publicly, and expect that all will be forgiven. I, however, will remember his opportunism, his cowardice, and will remind my friends that this was a legislator more interested in doing what was good for himself than for his state or his society.</p>
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		<title>By: StraightGrandmother</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/17/42126/comment-page-1#comment-117757</link>
		<dc:creator>StraightGrandmother</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Feb 2012 01:42:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=42126#comment-117757</guid>
		<description>Maybe Christie will change after DOMA is struck down. There will be no denying the fact then, that Civil Unions are Equal to Marriage. If he is ever going to change, it will probably be after DOMA dies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe Christie will change after DOMA is struck down. There will be no denying the fact then, that Civil Unions are Equal to Marriage. If he is ever going to change, it will probably be after DOMA dies.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/17/42126/comment-page-1#comment-117744</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Feb 2012 00:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=42126#comment-117744</guid>
		<description>CPT_Doom

&lt;i&gt;I agree the message is classy, but quite frankly the notion that Christie is only vetoing this because of “political realities” makes his actions all the more vile.&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t disagree.  But I suspect that Christie wouldn&#039;t get it or understand why you think he&#039;s hypocritical.  Hell, he&#039;s gone on TV arguing in favor of civil unions and insisting that government must respect its gay citizens.  He probably genuinely believes himself to be a pro-gay activist of sorts and, in comparison to other Republicans, he is.

But it still is vile and extremely annoying and hurtful because this is a guy who doesn&#039;t hate us, who believes in fairness, who isn&#039;t really personally opposed to equality.  But - and it&#039;s the bang your head on the wall but - he just doesn&#039;t cross the line into realizing what this is all about.  

I believe that if Christie truly understood what he&#039;s doing that he&#039;s the type of guy who wouldn&#039;t let North Carolina primaries be his biggest priority.  But &#039;redefining the word marriage to include gay people&#039; isn&#039;t important enough to him.  You have your civil unions and all the state departmental stuff and he protects bullied kids and this is all a big fuss over a word.

It&#039;s not.

This isn&#039;t about marriage, redefined or otherwise.  This isn&#039;t about rights which come with the word or even societal prestige.

This issue is far bigger than what we call our relationships.  It&#039;s about that idea that we all like to think that we believe but which goes against so many of our instincts that every generation has to struggle mightily to live up to it: that all men should be measured not by what they were born with but by what they make of it.  And the notion that government does not administer this idea, does not dole it out or reel it in, but answers to it.

When someone applies their efforts and drive and intellect and sacrifices and gets to the place they are going, no man or government is entitled to say, &quot;no, not you.  You have the wrong color, social standing, education, and genitalia.&quot;

Christie isn&#039;t seeing it this way.  To him its a matter of addressing needs.  He&#039;ll happily sign upgrades to civil unions or directives making sure they are honored.  That fixes the immediate problem.

But he just can&#039;t see that this isn&#039;t about fishing licenses or hospital visitation.  I&#039;m happy that he doesn&#039;t want me to be denied the provisions of government.

But that&#039;s not what I&#039;m asking for.  I&#039;m demanding something that neither he nor the citizenry have the right to grant or deny: equal standing.

This is a birthright issue.  Equality is mine.  Maybe he can&#039;t see it, but it&#039;s mine.

But with a good heart and the best of intentions Christie is blindly standing between me and what I&#039;m entitled to saying, &quot;no, not you, not now&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CPT_Doom</p>
<p><i>I agree the message is classy, but quite frankly the notion that Christie is only vetoing this because of “political realities” makes his actions all the more vile.</i></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t disagree.  But I suspect that Christie wouldn&#8217;t get it or understand why you think he&#8217;s hypocritical.  Hell, he&#8217;s gone on TV arguing in favor of civil unions and insisting that government must respect its gay citizens.  He probably genuinely believes himself to be a pro-gay activist of sorts and, in comparison to other Republicans, he is.</p>
<p>But it still is vile and extremely annoying and hurtful because this is a guy who doesn&#8217;t hate us, who believes in fairness, who isn&#8217;t really personally opposed to equality.  But &#8211; and it&#8217;s the bang your head on the wall but &#8211; he just doesn&#8217;t cross the line into realizing what this is all about.  </p>
<p>I believe that if Christie truly understood what he&#8217;s doing that he&#8217;s the type of guy who wouldn&#8217;t let North Carolina primaries be his biggest priority.  But &#8216;redefining the word marriage to include gay people&#8217; isn&#8217;t important enough to him.  You have your civil unions and all the state departmental stuff and he protects bullied kids and this is all a big fuss over a word.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t about marriage, redefined or otherwise.  This isn&#8217;t about rights which come with the word or even societal prestige.</p>
<p>This issue is far bigger than what we call our relationships.  It&#8217;s about that idea that we all like to think that we believe but which goes against so many of our instincts that every generation has to struggle mightily to live up to it: that all men should be measured not by what they were born with but by what they make of it.  And the notion that government does not administer this idea, does not dole it out or reel it in, but answers to it.</p>
<p>When someone applies their efforts and drive and intellect and sacrifices and gets to the place they are going, no man or government is entitled to say, &#8220;no, not you.  You have the wrong color, social standing, education, and genitalia.&#8221;</p>
<p>Christie isn&#8217;t seeing it this way.  To him its a matter of addressing needs.  He&#8217;ll happily sign upgrades to civil unions or directives making sure they are honored.  That fixes the immediate problem.</p>
<p>But he just can&#8217;t see that this isn&#8217;t about fishing licenses or hospital visitation.  I&#8217;m happy that he doesn&#8217;t want me to be denied the provisions of government.</p>
<p>But that&#8217;s not what I&#8217;m asking for.  I&#8217;m demanding something that neither he nor the citizenry have the right to grant or deny: equal standing.</p>
<p>This is a birthright issue.  Equality is mine.  Maybe he can&#8217;t see it, but it&#8217;s mine.</p>
<p>But with a good heart and the best of intentions Christie is blindly standing between me and what I&#8217;m entitled to saying, &#8220;no, not you, not now&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: StraightGrandmother</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/17/42126/comment-page-1#comment-117739</link>
		<dc:creator>StraightGrandmother</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 23:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=42126#comment-117739</guid>
		<description>Great article, terrific comments the the Equality guy and really GREAT thoughts and comments above. ALL of you, ALL really insightful comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article, terrific comments the the Equality guy and really GREAT thoughts and comments above. ALL of you, ALL really insightful comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/17/42126/comment-page-1#comment-117738</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=42126#comment-117738</guid>
		<description>If people want to pretend someone who&#039;d veto marriage equality isn&#039;t anti-gay they&#039;re welcome to do so but I won&#039;t be drinking the kool-aid.

If you want to make the case that it&#039;d be politically advantageous to not call him anti-gay to his face or friends or in public I can entertain that idea but don&#039;t ever expect me when I&#039;m alone with my closest friends to falsely claim Christie or anyone else who opposes full equality is not anti-gay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If people want to pretend someone who&#8217;d veto marriage equality isn&#8217;t anti-gay they&#8217;re welcome to do so but I won&#8217;t be drinking the kool-aid.</p>
<p>If you want to make the case that it&#8217;d be politically advantageous to not call him anti-gay to his face or friends or in public I can entertain that idea but don&#8217;t ever expect me when I&#8217;m alone with my closest friends to falsely claim Christie or anyone else who opposes full equality is not anti-gay.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/17/42126/comment-page-1#comment-117736</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=42126#comment-117736</guid>
		<description>Oh lord, after saying how much I respect him I got his name wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh lord, after saying how much I respect him I got his name wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/17/42126/comment-page-1#comment-117728</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 21:47:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=42126#comment-117728</guid>
		<description>To bad Goldman had to ruin an almost eloquent speech with the source of all hate.  Mythology ruins everything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To bad Goldman had to ruin an almost eloquent speech with the source of all hate.  Mythology ruins everything.</p>
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		<title>By: Norm!</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/17/42126/comment-page-1#comment-117724</link>
		<dc:creator>Norm!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 21:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=42126#comment-117724</guid>
		<description>Wow. Thank you for sharing Goldman&#039;s statement. It has given much to think about.  

I sympathize with Goldman&#039;s feeling of being hurt by someone you admire. Last night, I discovered some relatives&#039; names on the 2009 Washington state anti-gay petition (&lt;a href=&quot;http://whosigned.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;whosigned.org&lt;/a&gt; just published the list yesterday).  Obviously, I wasn&#039;t too surprised since I had searched for their names, but I have to admit that I&#039;m having trouble with the idea of acting friendly with those that actively oppose my civil rights.  It&#039;s one position to disagree, but to actively veto legislation or sign a petition is somehow seems worse than even privately voting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. Thank you for sharing Goldman&#8217;s statement. It has given much to think about.  </p>
<p>I sympathize with Goldman&#8217;s feeling of being hurt by someone you admire. Last night, I discovered some relatives&#8217; names on the 2009 Washington state anti-gay petition (<a href="http://whosigned.org/" rel="nofollow">whosigned.org</a> just published the list yesterday).  Obviously, I wasn&#8217;t too surprised since I had searched for their names, but I have to admit that I&#8217;m having trouble with the idea of acting friendly with those that actively oppose my civil rights.  It&#8217;s one position to disagree, but to actively veto legislation or sign a petition is somehow seems worse than even privately voting.</p>
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		<title>By: Regan DuCasse</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/17/42126/comment-page-1#comment-117723</link>
		<dc:creator>Regan DuCasse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 21:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=42126#comment-117723</guid>
		<description>Of course it hurts. 
    And a gay person that hurts, matters not at all. A gay person can be compelled to participate in the general welfare of a state. Pay taxes, adopt children from institutions that the state pays for and be all manner of law abiding and compassionate.
Express understanding, and interest in the hurts and needs of others.
But those of the gay community, well...those aren&#039;t valid.
Hurt, crushing disappointment, exhaustive patience and depths of courage...so what?

  Even as political men like Christie or many others have their hands out for campaign donations from the gay community, they&#039;ll still think those dollars, those votes and unconditional support from gay people is either a given or unimportant since this is a minority that can never have any political balance anywhere. Therefore NO political clout that he needs to concern himself with.

   Yet, he and even Santorum, will mention gay &#039;friends&#039;, who are somehow quite invisible to confirming it. Unless the odd campaign manager or other lowly worker that happens to be gay is who they are talking about.
But they are still showing that gay person in their professional midst that they aren&#039;t worthy of being married legally, adopting a child who needs a family, nor of any of the rights and protections that&#039;s supposed to go with the commitment to paying taxes and other tangible standards of social participation and responsibility.

 Pay up, shut up...and no matter what, I&#039;ll show you gay people who owns the political process from which you are subject and have no say in how you are to determine you own legal protections.
The betrayal, these bald two faces that such people can display, make me utterly sick.

   It&#039;s true, you do know where you are with Santorum.
Some who have supremacist values are only a bit more honest about it than others.
  Not knowing who has the knife poised, while being criticized for not trusting what the het majority is going to do to you, is truly terrible.
Pens, knives...what&#039;s the difference in this instance?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course it hurts.<br />
    And a gay person that hurts, matters not at all. A gay person can be compelled to participate in the general welfare of a state. Pay taxes, adopt children from institutions that the state pays for and be all manner of law abiding and compassionate.<br />
Express understanding, and interest in the hurts and needs of others.<br />
But those of the gay community, well&#8230;those aren&#8217;t valid.<br />
Hurt, crushing disappointment, exhaustive patience and depths of courage&#8230;so what?</p>
<p>  Even as political men like Christie or many others have their hands out for campaign donations from the gay community, they&#8217;ll still think those dollars, those votes and unconditional support from gay people is either a given or unimportant since this is a minority that can never have any political balance anywhere. Therefore NO political clout that he needs to concern himself with.</p>
<p>   Yet, he and even Santorum, will mention gay &#8216;friends&#8217;, who are somehow quite invisible to confirming it. Unless the odd campaign manager or other lowly worker that happens to be gay is who they are talking about.<br />
But they are still showing that gay person in their professional midst that they aren&#8217;t worthy of being married legally, adopting a child who needs a family, nor of any of the rights and protections that&#8217;s supposed to go with the commitment to paying taxes and other tangible standards of social participation and responsibility.</p>
<p> Pay up, shut up&#8230;and no matter what, I&#8217;ll show you gay people who owns the political process from which you are subject and have no say in how you are to determine you own legal protections.<br />
The betrayal, these bald two faces that such people can display, make me utterly sick.</p>
<p>   It&#8217;s true, you do know where you are with Santorum.<br />
Some who have supremacist values are only a bit more honest about it than others.<br />
  Not knowing who has the knife poised, while being criticized for not trusting what the het majority is going to do to you, is truly terrible.<br />
Pens, knives&#8230;what&#8217;s the difference in this instance?</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew M.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/02/17/42126/comment-page-1#comment-117722</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 21:00:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=42126#comment-117722</guid>
		<description>Hear hear! With every breath.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hear hear! With every breath.</p>
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