Comments on: Christian Values

By: andrew

andrew — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:11:27 +0000

actually, I find communal worship deeply unsettling. why is this something we do in groups? it’s one of the most intimate relationships i have, why on earth would i do this through a 3rd party in front of other people? when i was a regularly practicing catholic, i used to go to the downstairs chapel during mass to commune for the 45-75 minutes or so mass took. the ritual was comforting, but it was upsetting – people driving bmw’s and wearing furs and putting a nickel into the collection plate (and then me feeling guilty for judging them), folks just going through the motions who clearly didn’t want to be there, priests ranting about things that were not biblical (i’m pretty sure jesus did not expect a lecture about whether or not one should leave before or after the priest, nor did he expect an 40 minute rant about the evils of masturbation).

these are all distractions. like inviting your friends over to watch the ballgame while you make love to your spouse. it just doesn’t make any sense to me.

By: StraightGrandmother

StraightGrandmother — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 16:21:07 +0000

I don’t expect others to dress up for church but I do. I grew up in an era where we wore white gloves and had a new fancy Easter dress with matching hat and purse. My son even as a toddler wore a suite and clip on tie to church. We had “church” shoes, good shoes we only would wear for church.

I do NOT mind at all if others wear jeans, it is not what we are wearing that is important. But you grow up a certain way with certain traditions so I guess it just sticks with you.

By: cd

cd — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 04:20:24 +0000

Religious conservatives do move over to megachurches. But the retention rate of their children is less than you’d think.

By: pax58

pax58 — Tue, 17 Apr 2012 02:07:58 +0000

After 25 years as a United Methodist pastor, I came to terms with my sexuality, gave up my orders and moved to Tucson. I became a member of St Philips Episcopal Church, a church firmly set in tradtional worship with a high level of classical church music supported by the congregation. The first Sunday I was there as very effective priest on the staff preached, and she was a very good preacher. She was an out lesbian in a committed relationship. What I have come to love about my adopted family of faith is how well it holds to the tradtion from which it comes. As a person who takes theology and tradition seriously this is important to me. But something was important to me as well. St Philips is not locked into its tradtion in a way that prevents it from responding to the present world in which it lives. GLBT persons are intrigrated into the life of this community with no banners or heavy commentary, we are part of the bigger whole. One church growth person stated that a paper tiger is never as good as the real thing. Too many mainline churches have moved toward contemparary worship and praise bands as a way of appealing to a younger generation. Some have been effective, but most are trying to immate another tradition and it shows. As an apologist for mainline Christianity (Episcoal version) I find much within the values of a church that has been around for centuries to give those who have been a part of it since birth and new commers looking for a place to grow spiritually that is subtle put impressivie. Easter Sunday there were lots of services with a wide range of ages present. The church ladies stand out in their hats and nice dresses, sitting next to a young adult in jeans and a casual shirt.

By: Snowman

Snowman — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 22:11:18 +0000

Personally, I think those mainline churches will be around for a good long time yet in one way or another, in my experience there are just as many, maybe people who leave Fundamentalist churches for Atheism, in my personal experience though, a lot of the mainline churches have lower attendance overall than Fundamentalist churches do, and there’s less money all around than in say, a Pentecostal church. (Former Northern Baptist here btw) the middle of the road nondenominational Evangelical church I used to attend faded away after its Pasor retired because they couldn’t find another one. So the President of the association preaches there (he’s Fundamentalist, the old Pastor wasn’t)It’s a shell of its former self and few of the people I knew still attend.

At this point I think everybody’s hurting except for those who tell people what they want to hear. Too few people seem to care about the truth.

But then, that’s why I’m not religious anymore either, the truth is I couldn’t stand so much hipocrisy anymore. My own search for truth led me in a different direction.

By: Timothy Kincaid

Timothy Kincaid — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 21:32:59 +0000

Zeke,

Thank you for that response. It is, I believe, true that for some a liberal church is just a stopping point on the way out the door.

But I truly don’t think that the UCC or most mainline churches get it. Rather than sell their values they just become “we aren’t them”. And that isn’t worth showing up for.

You should know that I’m not saying that “we have liberal values” is a selling point. Frankly, too often they sound like conservatives, just with different targets.

What I’m saying is “We have very very tough values; extremely hard to keep in place. But they are worth it.” is a very good selling point. If, of course, they live them.

By: TampaZeke

TampaZeke — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 19:55:47 +0000

The dying Congregational church mentioned in the story is UCC, which is WAY more modern than any Episcopal church and much more inclusive on a national scale yet that congregation was dying. UCC congregations across the country are folding so your claim doesn’t really hold water.

I think a more likely reason that so many mainline churches are going under (and I speak from personal experience as a former UCC member and moderator) is because once you let go of the trappings of conservative fundamentalism and settle into an inclusive church like the UCC, you’re often well on your way to leaving Christianity, and organized religion altogether. Between the conservatives that are leaving mainline churches for the mega churches and the liberals who are deciding that they don’t want anything more to do with Christianity in ANY form, the progressive congregations are becoming scarce and will soon be extinct.

By: Blake

Blake — Mon, 16 Apr 2012 18:38:10 +0000

I agree. They sell themselves short. I think partly because the whole of the mainline congregations aren’t in agreement with the core values which you, I and the congregate find so endearing.

Of the major mainline denominations in the USA only the Episcopalians are imparting the values. And even then if one steps into the wrong congregation…

Methodists & Baptists may share these values at certain churches, but not denominationally. Similarly I’ve attended a Catholic Shrine in all ways similar to your example except for a pervasive sense of dread amongst the congregants that the hierarchy would catch wind of what was happening there.

Perhaps it is loyalty to the denomination and a desire to “not-rock-the-boat” which keeps other congregations from selling themselves more directly. I suppose not many Methodist denominations want to be lumped in with those “obnoxious troublemakers” in Raleigh.

Perhaps it is the GP’s knee-jerk negative reaction to issues of sexuality which obscure the wider message of tolerance & inclusion.

When I’m in doubt I tend to blame leadership & the way a number of mainline denominations are governed certainly contributes.

They also make the same mistake failing bars make: catering to their regulars. The bluehairs & conservatives want biblical literalism & if you don’t give it to them they’re willing to jump to non-doms that are. At the same time, the mainlines haven’t figured out that the above values sell or how to sell them without the distractions that come with sexuality issues. They’re apparently more worried about loosing the patrons they have than about attracting new ones. Call it tunnel-vision.