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	<title>Comments on: California Senate Proposes Limits On Ex-Gay Therapy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/04/24/43785/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/04/24/43785</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: WMDKitty</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/04/24/43785/comment-page-1#comment-122325</link>
		<dc:creator>WMDKitty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2012 03:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=43785#comment-122325</guid>
		<description>@Timothy Kincaid -- Those kids wouldn&#039;t WANT ex-gay &quot;therapy&quot; if their families and communities weren&#039;t constantly convincing them that being gay is somehow &quot;wrong&quot; or &quot;immoral&quot; or &quot;evil&quot;.

We&#039;ve heard time and time again from people who were FORCED into these programs by their families and communities.

None, NOT A SINGLE ONE, would have freely chosen that &quot;therapy&quot; if they&#039;d had a loving, supportive environment. NOT. ONE.

Your anecdotes are not data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Timothy Kincaid &#8212; Those kids wouldn&#8217;t WANT ex-gay &#8220;therapy&#8221; if their families and communities weren&#8217;t constantly convincing them that being gay is somehow &#8220;wrong&#8221; or &#8220;immoral&#8221; or &#8220;evil&#8221;.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve heard time and time again from people who were FORCED into these programs by their families and communities.</p>
<p>None, NOT A SINGLE ONE, would have freely chosen that &#8220;therapy&#8221; if they&#8217;d had a loving, supportive environment. NOT. ONE.</p>
<p>Your anecdotes are not data.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/04/24/43785/comment-page-1#comment-122176</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2012 00:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=43785#comment-122176</guid>
		<description>David Waite,

Clearly you object to a Catholic school urging children to sign an anti-gay marriage petition.  

Yet I can, with a measure of confidence, be certain that you would not object if it were a pro-gay marriage petition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Waite,</p>
<p>Clearly you object to a Catholic school urging children to sign an anti-gay marriage petition.  </p>
<p>Yet I can, with a measure of confidence, be certain that you would not object if it were a pro-gay marriage petition.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/04/24/43785/comment-page-1#comment-122175</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2012 00:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=43785#comment-122175</guid>
		<description>While I have written my own commentary (feel free to disagree), I do have to make one additional observation on this thread

&lt;i&gt;“What we in the comfort of our adult years forget is that many gay Christian youth want this option.”

Only because their parents and church leaders are calling them “unnatural”, “abominations”, and threatening them with eternal torment in hell for simply being themselves. OF COURSE you’d “want” the “option” of “ex-gay” therapy!&lt;/i&gt;

Only because... 

I have to marvel at that.  Not knowing anyone involved, seemingly unaware of the testimony we&#039;ve heard from many, absolutely with no basis whatsoever... still a bold assertion of &quot;only because.&quot;

What kind of comic book world do you live in?  Do you &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; think that religious teaching is limited to &quot;threatening them with eternal torment in hell for simply being themselves&quot;?  How absurd.

The impression that some of y&#039;all have about conservative Christianity reminds me of that other mythical alternate reality called &quot;the homosexual lifestyle&quot;.  Both are about as real as Lilliput or Oz.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I have written my own commentary (feel free to disagree), I do have to make one additional observation on this thread</p>
<p><i>“What we in the comfort of our adult years forget is that many gay Christian youth want this option.”</p>
<p>Only because their parents and church leaders are calling them “unnatural”, “abominations”, and threatening them with eternal torment in hell for simply being themselves. OF COURSE you’d “want” the “option” of “ex-gay” therapy!</i></p>
<p>Only because&#8230; </p>
<p>I have to marvel at that.  Not knowing anyone involved, seemingly unaware of the testimony we&#8217;ve heard from many, absolutely with no basis whatsoever&#8230; still a bold assertion of &#8220;only because.&#8221;</p>
<p>What kind of comic book world do you live in?  Do you <i>really</i> think that religious teaching is limited to &#8220;threatening them with eternal torment in hell for simply being themselves&#8221;?  How absurd.</p>
<p>The impression that some of y&#8217;all have about conservative Christianity reminds me of that other mythical alternate reality called &#8220;the homosexual lifestyle&#8221;.  Both are about as real as Lilliput or Oz.</p>
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		<title>By: David Waite</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/04/24/43785/comment-page-1#comment-122080</link>
		<dc:creator>David Waite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2012 22:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=43785#comment-122080</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a flagrantly flaming example of how we wicked gay secularists seek to oppress religious teenagers.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/04/25/exclusive-catholic-school-urged-pupils-as-young-as-11-to-sign-anti-gay-marriage-petition/?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=feed&amp;utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Pinknews+%28Pink+News%29&amp;utm_content=My+Yahoo
How dare we dreadful gays broadcast the loving help and guidance of the UK&#039;s lords spiritual in a negative way? Why some poor gay-but-religious British teen might be discouraged from NARTHing himself to death.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a flagrantly flaming example of how we wicked gay secularists seek to oppress religious teenagers.<br />
<a href="http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/04/25/exclusive-catholic-school-urged-pupils-as-young-as-11-to-sign-anti-gay-marriage-petition/?utm_source=feedburner&#038;utm_medium=feed&#038;utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Pinknews+%28Pink+News%29&#038;utm_content=My+Yahoo" rel="nofollow">http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/04/25/exclusive-catholic-school-urged-pupils-as-young-as-11-to-sign-anti-gay-marriage-petition/?utm_source=feedburner&#038;utm_medium=feed&#038;utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Pinknews+%28Pink+News%29&#038;utm_content=My+Yahoo</a><br />
How dare we dreadful gays broadcast the loving help and guidance of the UK&#8217;s lords spiritual in a negative way? Why some poor gay-but-religious British teen might be discouraged from NARTHing himself to death.</p>
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		<title>By: David Waite</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/04/24/43785/comment-page-1#comment-122078</link>
		<dc:creator>David Waite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2012 22:08:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=43785#comment-122078</guid>
		<description>@ Timothy Kincaid: I&#039;m sure you are prepared to flood us all with peer reviewed studies showing that a certain segment of our planet&#039;s LGBTQ youth so long for spiritual fulfillment that they would willingly sign up to be shocked with cattle prods, humiliated by and in front of their loved ones and sternly warned about their certain damnation. Oh if only we wicked secularists and madly mad scientists would stop picking on their religion, and allow them to worship their jealous god in piece(s).

After all, we allow them to impregnate each other, abuse drugs, drop out of school to become a tax burden directly or indirectly. Surely our libertarian ethos should extend to allowing young people to psychologically destroy themselves over their parent-and-community-induced beliefs. Surely we can recognize that a teenager is perfectly capable of thinking for him/herself just like humans who have reached their majority. How dare we pretend that our minor age children don&#039;t have the right to purchase and use snake oil.

I expect it was those scientifically conducted polls of this group of children which gave you the moral and ethical courage to write, &quot;What we in the comfort of our adult years forget is that many gay Christian youth want this option.&quot; We are so chastened, Timothy; we children of 70.

I&#039;m sure, armed and armored with your irrefutable evidence, you&#039;ll be able to readily dismiss as anecdotal my statement that Mother called her 8 year old an abomination in the name of her god, and my 8-year-long attempt to pray myself straight was only my deep desire to practice my religion unmolested by satanic influences from godless adults.

No doubt my year-long work at the age of 25 to rescue a total of 158 parent-rejected teenagers from NYC&#039;s streets is equally anecdotal. After all, you have evidence that &quot;many gay Christian youth want this option&quot; and they all doubtless would consider being thrown into the street, raped by gangs and pimped out to ephebophiles simply a part of a divine plan for their spiritual welfare. How dare we tell a developing mind that shame and hatred in the name of a loving god isn&#039;t healthy.

Oh divine effluescence, thank you for sending this pure-of-spirit messenger of your holy enlightenment to convict the wickedness of my froward heart, and force me, like Saul, to stop tormenting your chosen teenagers with the truth. How little I understood in 1967 and since; how dared I rejoice when I got a parent to re-choose his or her child over religion, how dared I weep bitterly when I was unable to save the children who died, or lived on in mental agony. Oh! The many gay teens I have kept from finding the comfort of your holy embrace via the cleansing flames of social and parental rejection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Timothy Kincaid: I&#8217;m sure you are prepared to flood us all with peer reviewed studies showing that a certain segment of our planet&#8217;s LGBTQ youth so long for spiritual fulfillment that they would willingly sign up to be shocked with cattle prods, humiliated by and in front of their loved ones and sternly warned about their certain damnation. Oh if only we wicked secularists and madly mad scientists would stop picking on their religion, and allow them to worship their jealous god in piece(s).</p>
<p>After all, we allow them to impregnate each other, abuse drugs, drop out of school to become a tax burden directly or indirectly. Surely our libertarian ethos should extend to allowing young people to psychologically destroy themselves over their parent-and-community-induced beliefs. Surely we can recognize that a teenager is perfectly capable of thinking for him/herself just like humans who have reached their majority. How dare we pretend that our minor age children don&#8217;t have the right to purchase and use snake oil.</p>
<p>I expect it was those scientifically conducted polls of this group of children which gave you the moral and ethical courage to write, &#8220;What we in the comfort of our adult years forget is that many gay Christian youth want this option.&#8221; We are so chastened, Timothy; we children of 70.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure, armed and armored with your irrefutable evidence, you&#8217;ll be able to readily dismiss as anecdotal my statement that Mother called her 8 year old an abomination in the name of her god, and my 8-year-long attempt to pray myself straight was only my deep desire to practice my religion unmolested by satanic influences from godless adults.</p>
<p>No doubt my year-long work at the age of 25 to rescue a total of 158 parent-rejected teenagers from NYC&#8217;s streets is equally anecdotal. After all, you have evidence that &#8220;many gay Christian youth want this option&#8221; and they all doubtless would consider being thrown into the street, raped by gangs and pimped out to ephebophiles simply a part of a divine plan for their spiritual welfare. How dare we tell a developing mind that shame and hatred in the name of a loving god isn&#8217;t healthy.</p>
<p>Oh divine effluescence, thank you for sending this pure-of-spirit messenger of your holy enlightenment to convict the wickedness of my froward heart, and force me, like Saul, to stop tormenting your chosen teenagers with the truth. How little I understood in 1967 and since; how dared I rejoice when I got a parent to re-choose his or her child over religion, how dared I weep bitterly when I was unable to save the children who died, or lived on in mental agony. Oh! The many gay teens I have kept from finding the comfort of your holy embrace via the cleansing flames of social and parental rejection.</p>
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		<title>By: jk</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/04/24/43785/comment-page-1#comment-122059</link>
		<dc:creator>jk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2012 19:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=43785#comment-122059</guid>
		<description>Just reading - very interesting</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just reading &#8211; very interesting</p>
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		<title>By: Reed</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/04/24/43785/comment-page-1#comment-122050</link>
		<dc:creator>Reed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2012 17:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=43785#comment-122050</guid>
		<description>There is a bogus &quot;Therapists Embracing Religious Freedom&quot; group in California that may surface again in opposition to this excellent proposal.  Their last activity seems to have been in February,
complaining about public statements that the San Francisco California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists (CAMFT) &quot;has made regarding the ethicality of SOCE (Sexual Orientation Change Efforts) on its Website.&quot;   

TERF was once a Facebook page with more than 100 members.  It has since been archived - and the new &quot;group&quot; has a whopping 16 members.  Its founder is not, in fact, a licensed therapist, but an intern.  

FB link:  
http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/350665734401/

P.S.  I adore Sen. Lieu (the man who requested details of Sarah Palin&#039;s &quot;confidential&quot; speaking engagement contract at CSU Stanislaus a couple of years ago).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a bogus &#8220;Therapists Embracing Religious Freedom&#8221; group in California that may surface again in opposition to this excellent proposal.  Their last activity seems to have been in February,<br />
complaining about public statements that the San Francisco California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists (CAMFT) &#8220;has made regarding the ethicality of SOCE (Sexual Orientation Change Efforts) on its Website.&#8221;   </p>
<p>TERF was once a Facebook page with more than 100 members.  It has since been archived &#8211; and the new &#8220;group&#8221; has a whopping 16 members.  Its founder is not, in fact, a licensed therapist, but an intern.  </p>
<p>FB link:<br />
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/350665734401/" rel="nofollow">http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/350665734401/</a></p>
<p>P.S.  I adore Sen. Lieu (the man who requested details of Sarah Palin&#8217;s &#8220;confidential&#8221; speaking engagement contract at CSU Stanislaus a couple of years ago).</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/04/24/43785/comment-page-1#comment-122047</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:40:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=43785#comment-122047</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know Tavdy, I don&#039;t see parents wanting their child to have &quot;exgay&quot; &quot;therapy&quot; having the same level of desperation that a person with an unwanted pregnancy has to end it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know Tavdy, I don&#8217;t see parents wanting their child to have &#8220;exgay&#8221; &#8220;therapy&#8221; having the same level of desperation that a person with an unwanted pregnancy has to end it.</p>
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		<title>By: tavdy79</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/04/24/43785/comment-page-1#comment-122045</link>
		<dc:creator>tavdy79</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=43785#comment-122045</guid>
		<description>At first glance this looks like a good idea, but I really think it is massively unwise.

Instead of sending their LGBT children to now-defunct &quot;clinics&quot; in California, homophobic parents may simply ship them out to places that don&#039;t have laws of this kind. Even children from poor backgrounds will remain vulnerable, as many churches will enthusiastically agree to fund their &quot;treatment&quot;. So at best the law is ineffective.

But there is also a darker possibility: that there will develop an underground network of ex-gay &quot;therapists&quot;, similar to the back-alley abortion practitioners that were once common in many countries. This doesn&#039;t solve the problem of ex-gay &quot;therapy&quot; - if anything, it makes it a lot more more dangerous. At least if everything is relatively out in the open there&#039;s some protection against sexual predators. Drive ex-gay &quot;therapy&quot; underground and the predators will circle like vultures, and many LGBT teens will end up suffering physical and sexual abuse in addition to the emotional and psychological abuse their families are already putting them through.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At first glance this looks like a good idea, but I really think it is massively unwise.</p>
<p>Instead of sending their LGBT children to now-defunct &#8220;clinics&#8221; in California, homophobic parents may simply ship them out to places that don&#8217;t have laws of this kind. Even children from poor backgrounds will remain vulnerable, as many churches will enthusiastically agree to fund their &#8220;treatment&#8221;. So at best the law is ineffective.</p>
<p>But there is also a darker possibility: that there will develop an underground network of ex-gay &#8220;therapists&#8221;, similar to the back-alley abortion practitioners that were once common in many countries. This doesn&#8217;t solve the problem of ex-gay &#8220;therapy&#8221; &#8211; if anything, it makes it a lot more more dangerous. At least if everything is relatively out in the open there&#8217;s some protection against sexual predators. Drive ex-gay &#8220;therapy&#8221; underground and the predators will circle like vultures, and many LGBT teens will end up suffering physical and sexual abuse in addition to the emotional and psychological abuse their families are already putting them through.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/04/24/43785/comment-page-1#comment-122043</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=43785#comment-122043</guid>
		<description>Timothy said &quot;What we in the comfort of our adult years forget is that many gay Christian youth want this option.”

Many youth want to drink alcohol, but we don&#039;t let them purchase it. Some youth want to have sex change surgery but we make them wait until they&#039;re 18. Just because youth want something doesn&#039;t necessarily mean society should provide it to them.

This is the correct move and a positive step forward.  It&#039;s time to end special rights for religion.  If society prohibits people doing something for non-religious reasons its unjust and counterproductive to allow them to do something otherwise prohibited for religious reasons.  It is not religious persecution to ask religious people to follow the same laws everyone else does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy said &#8220;What we in the comfort of our adult years forget is that many gay Christian youth want this option.”</p>
<p>Many youth want to drink alcohol, but we don&#8217;t let them purchase it. Some youth want to have sex change surgery but we make them wait until they&#8217;re 18. Just because youth want something doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean society should provide it to them.</p>
<p>This is the correct move and a positive step forward.  It&#8217;s time to end special rights for religion.  If society prohibits people doing something for non-religious reasons its unjust and counterproductive to allow them to do something otherwise prohibited for religious reasons.  It is not religious persecution to ask religious people to follow the same laws everyone else does.</p>
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