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	<title>Comments on: Exodus Condemns Family &#8220;Research&#8221; Council For Honoring Anti-Gay Pastor</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/29/45055</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/29/45055/comment-page-1#comment-124752</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 21:25:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45055#comment-124752</guid>
		<description>because=between 

how i can spend the time to look up the plural of spectrum but still miss the obvious typo... **sigh**</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>because=between </p>
<p>how i can spend the time to look up the plural of spectrum but still miss the obvious typo&#8230; **sigh**</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/29/45055/comment-page-1#comment-124750</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 21:21:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45055#comment-124750</guid>
		<description>@ Jarred you&#039;re 100% correct. The evangelical worldview is as nuanced as the gay/secularist worldview. But there remains a great deal of difference because the two no matter where you draw examples from the respective spectra.

Part of a secular/gay worldview is respect/tolerance for other worldviews. Part of an evangelical worldview is a certain disdain for other worldviews. This is not meant to pass a value judgment on their worldview; it is just to point out that their worldview starts &amp; stops with their interpretation of John 14:6 (or 3:16). The idea that only through Jesus Christ one is saved is the essence of being an evangelical regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Jarred you&#8217;re 100% correct. The evangelical worldview is as nuanced as the gay/secularist worldview. But there remains a great deal of difference because the two no matter where you draw examples from the respective spectra.</p>
<p>Part of a secular/gay worldview is respect/tolerance for other worldviews. Part of an evangelical worldview is a certain disdain for other worldviews. This is not meant to pass a value judgment on their worldview; it is just to point out that their worldview starts &amp; stops with their interpretation of John 14:6 (or 3:16). The idea that only through Jesus Christ one is saved is the essence of being an evangelical regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy (TRiG)</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/29/45055/comment-page-1#comment-124727</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy (TRiG)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 18:14:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45055#comment-124727</guid>
		<description>Alright. I wasn&#039;t paying attention there. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/01/13/40739&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Found it&lt;/a&gt;. That was silly of me.

TRiG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alright. I wasn&#8217;t paying attention there. <a href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/01/13/40739" rel="nofollow" class="articleLink">Found it</a>. That was silly of me.</p>
<p>TRiG.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy (TRiG)</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/29/45055/comment-page-1#comment-124724</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy (TRiG)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 17:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45055#comment-124724</guid>
		<description>Blake, which op-ed are you talking about? I&#039;m confused.

TRiG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blake, which op-ed are you talking about? I&#8217;m confused.</p>
<p>TRiG.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/29/45055/comment-page-1#comment-124712</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 15:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45055#comment-124712</guid>
		<description>While this is a step in the right direction it doesn&#039;t absolve Exodus of all wrongdoing.  Its like an alcoholic who changes from starting binge drinking at 9:00 AM to starting binge drinking at 2:00 PM.  Its a significant improvement all right, but exodus remains an unethical and still destructive organization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While this is a step in the right direction it doesn&#8217;t absolve Exodus of all wrongdoing.  Its like an alcoholic who changes from starting binge drinking at 9:00 AM to starting binge drinking at 2:00 PM.  Its a significant improvement all right, but exodus remains an unethical and still destructive organization.</p>
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		<title>By: Jarred</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/29/45055/comment-page-1#comment-124707</link>
		<dc:creator>Jarred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 15:29:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45055#comment-124707</guid>
		<description>@Blake:  Of course, the bigger mistake there is in assuming that the &quot;evangelical worldview&quot; is as monolithic and uniform as some might claim.  There are plenty of evangelicals who don&#039;t share the &quot;traditional view&quot; of homosexuality, for example.  Granted, some might claim they&#039;re not &quot;real&quot; evangelicals.  But go ahead, tell Tony Campolo that his wife isn&#039;t a &quot;real&quot; evangelical and watch his reaction.  My money is on &quot;hysterical laughter.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Blake:  Of course, the bigger mistake there is in assuming that the &#8220;evangelical worldview&#8221; is as monolithic and uniform as some might claim.  There are plenty of evangelicals who don&#8217;t share the &#8220;traditional view&#8221; of homosexuality, for example.  Granted, some might claim they&#8217;re not &#8220;real&#8221; evangelicals.  But go ahead, tell Tony Campolo that his wife isn&#8217;t a &#8220;real&#8221; evangelical and watch his reaction.  My money is on &#8220;hysterical laughter.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/29/45055/comment-page-1#comment-124702</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 14:49:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45055#comment-124702</guid>
		<description>Wellllllll that&#039;s Mike Goeke not Gothe. To clarify.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wellllllll that&#8217;s Mike Goeke not Gothe. To clarify.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/29/45055/comment-page-1#comment-124701</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 14:48:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45055#comment-124701</guid>
		<description>I believe you may be misinterpreting Gothe&#039;s op-ed. He&#039;s saying the sin of homosexuality is different not because its in some way worse than other sins but because it is indicative of a cultural shift in the population. Essentially, he&#039;s pointing out the obvious  cultural differences between our worldview and an evangelical worldview to an audience (Baptist Press readers) whom are blinded by their privilege.

So from our perspective it appears he&#039;s attacking, but from an evangelical perspective he&#039;s telling them to think outside the box. To: 
&lt;blockquote&gt; ... educate ourselves. We must listen to stories and to the real-life experiences of people. We must be ready to contextualize our message to the subcultures in our own culture like we do in foreign lands. &lt;/blockquote&gt; 

Of course he&#039;s misplacing blame: American culture shifted decades ago into Post-Christian &amp; the gay rights movement is just the latest (and from his perspective, most difficult to empathize with) incarnation of that shift. But at least he&#039;s pointing out that the traditional messages that work in other contexts have to be rethought.

That bit about Pride parades still ruffles my feathers, but in re-reading the article in context (ie with the mindset in mind of the audience he&#039;s trying to reach: Baptist Post readers) it becomes possible that he&#039;s using that illustration to point out that this situation is different &lt;b&gt; from an evangelical perspective &lt;/b&gt;. So that bit about &quot;gluttony neighborhoods&quot; or &quot;liars bars&quot; is a play on the traditional understanding of gayness in an evangelical context. He&#039;s rehashing failed arguments to illustrate why they have to recognize the cultural differences between our worldviews or they&#039;re never going to understand how to reach us as Christ demands Christians do: with humility and love. 

He&#039;s saying that traditional approaches to sin, ie witnessing and condemnation, do not work in the context of confronting homosexuality because of the cultural worldview which is evidenced through open expressions of same-sex love. 

Now, of course, from our perspective, there is not the need to confront us because what we are doing is perfectly moral, but they don&#039;t/can&#039;t see that through their straight/Christian/(probably) white privilege.

It&#039;s a flawed commentary, yes. But it is a step in the right direction. He&#039;s on the same highway as Exodus and Chambers, he&#039;s just in a different lane. His fellowship is not about witnessing to us, its about witnessing to our families and friends and trying to preserve an Evangelical-Christian Cultural worldview. What he illustrates is the very model of an anti-gay religious position that I can live with. And we do have to live with these folks. Plus as more people examine our worldview they&#039;ll be more likely to adopt it. Or, at very least, fear us less. He&#039;s arguing for empathy over hate; for love over intolerance. 

Also check out his ministry&#039;s positional statement which can be found here under the About CPM tab: http://www.stonegatefellowship.com/www2011/cpm2012.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe you may be misinterpreting Gothe&#8217;s op-ed. He&#8217;s saying the sin of homosexuality is different not because its in some way worse than other sins but because it is indicative of a cultural shift in the population. Essentially, he&#8217;s pointing out the obvious  cultural differences between our worldview and an evangelical worldview to an audience (Baptist Press readers) whom are blinded by their privilege.</p>
<p>So from our perspective it appears he&#8217;s attacking, but from an evangelical perspective he&#8217;s telling them to think outside the box. To: </p>
<blockquote><p> &#8230; educate ourselves. We must listen to stories and to the real-life experiences of people. We must be ready to contextualize our message to the subcultures in our own culture like we do in foreign lands. </p></blockquote>
<p>Of course he&#8217;s misplacing blame: American culture shifted decades ago into Post-Christian &amp; the gay rights movement is just the latest (and from his perspective, most difficult to empathize with) incarnation of that shift. But at least he&#8217;s pointing out that the traditional messages that work in other contexts have to be rethought.</p>
<p>That bit about Pride parades still ruffles my feathers, but in re-reading the article in context (ie with the mindset in mind of the audience he&#8217;s trying to reach: Baptist Post readers) it becomes possible that he&#8217;s using that illustration to point out that this situation is different <b> from an evangelical perspective </b>. So that bit about &#8220;gluttony neighborhoods&#8221; or &#8220;liars bars&#8221; is a play on the traditional understanding of gayness in an evangelical context. He&#8217;s rehashing failed arguments to illustrate why they have to recognize the cultural differences between our worldviews or they&#8217;re never going to understand how to reach us as Christ demands Christians do: with humility and love. </p>
<p>He&#8217;s saying that traditional approaches to sin, ie witnessing and condemnation, do not work in the context of confronting homosexuality because of the cultural worldview which is evidenced through open expressions of same-sex love. </p>
<p>Now, of course, from our perspective, there is not the need to confront us because what we are doing is perfectly moral, but they don&#8217;t/can&#8217;t see that through their straight/Christian/(probably) white privilege.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a flawed commentary, yes. But it is a step in the right direction. He&#8217;s on the same highway as Exodus and Chambers, he&#8217;s just in a different lane. His fellowship is not about witnessing to us, its about witnessing to our families and friends and trying to preserve an Evangelical-Christian Cultural worldview. What he illustrates is the very model of an anti-gay religious position that I can live with. And we do have to live with these folks. Plus as more people examine our worldview they&#8217;ll be more likely to adopt it. Or, at very least, fear us less. He&#8217;s arguing for empathy over hate; for love over intolerance. </p>
<p>Also check out his ministry&#8217;s positional statement which can be found here under the About CPM tab: <a href="http://www.stonegatefellowship.com/www2011/cpm2012.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.stonegatefellowship.com/www2011/cpm2012.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: chiMaxx</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/29/45055/comment-page-1#comment-124676</link>
		<dc:creator>chiMaxx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 07:08:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45055#comment-124676</guid>
		<description>Indeed. Alan Chambers is to be commended. his attempts to bring integrity and honesty to at least the public statements of his organization--fitful though it may be--is a credit to him. I still think all ex-gay therapy is a crock, but to the extent they make it about trying to adapt your behavior to a certain set of values without promising any deep-seated change in sexual orientation, and that people know upfront that that is what they are signing up for, they are at least acting with integrity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed. Alan Chambers is to be commended. his attempts to bring integrity and honesty to at least the public statements of his organization&#8211;fitful though it may be&#8211;is a credit to him. I still think all ex-gay therapy is a crock, but to the extent they make it about trying to adapt your behavior to a certain set of values without promising any deep-seated change in sexual orientation, and that people know upfront that that is what they are signing up for, they are at least acting with integrity.</p>
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		<title>By: StraightGrandmother</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/29/45055/comment-page-1#comment-124661</link>
		<dc:creator>StraightGrandmother</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 03:18:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45055#comment-124661</guid>
		<description>Alan Chambers is to be commended.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan Chambers is to be commended.</p>
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