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	<title>Comments on: Some thoughts on the Massachusett and Gill appeals ruling</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/31/45151</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/31/45151/comment-page-1#comment-124943</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2012 13:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45151#comment-124943</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t wait to see what kinds of irrational excuses Scalia is going to come up with for retaining the &quot;defense&quot; of marriage act.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t wait to see what kinds of irrational excuses Scalia is going to come up with for retaining the &#8220;defense&#8221; of marriage act.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Jonson</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/31/45151/comment-page-1#comment-124941</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Jonson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2012 13:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45151#comment-124941</guid>
		<description>It is not true that this is the first time in a DOMA case that federalism was addressed. Indeed, it is central in Judge Tauro&#039;s opinion in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts case. He declared DOMA unconstitutional on the basis of the Tenth Amendment (as wall as equal protections grounds in the Gill case). However, the First Circuit reverses Tauro in regards to the Tenth Amendment. They use federalism only in a very narrow way. This decision in effect lessens the significance of federalism rather than emphasizes it. 

This is interesting because Roberts is thought to be a possible sixth vote against DOMA because of his interest in federalism. It may be that Tauro had him in mind in evoking the Tenth Amendment. It may also be that Boudin had Roberts in mind and wanted to evoke federalism without putting Roberts on the spot, especially with the idea that federalism (which even Alito and Scalia are supposed to espouse) means that DOMA must be striken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is not true that this is the first time in a DOMA case that federalism was addressed. Indeed, it is central in Judge Tauro&#8217;s opinion in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts case. He declared DOMA unconstitutional on the basis of the Tenth Amendment (as wall as equal protections grounds in the Gill case). However, the First Circuit reverses Tauro in regards to the Tenth Amendment. They use federalism only in a very narrow way. This decision in effect lessens the significance of federalism rather than emphasizes it. </p>
<p>This is interesting because Roberts is thought to be a possible sixth vote against DOMA because of his interest in federalism. It may be that Tauro had him in mind in evoking the Tenth Amendment. It may also be that Boudin had Roberts in mind and wanted to evoke federalism without putting Roberts on the spot, especially with the idea that federalism (which even Alito and Scalia are supposed to espouse) means that DOMA must be striken.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/31/45151/comment-page-1#comment-124935</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2012 12:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45151#comment-124935</guid>
		<description>Rational basis plus is not new. It&#039;s taught in law schools and essentially what Lawrence v. Texas used (though that case went out of its way to not clarify the what they actually used)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rational basis plus is not new. It&#8217;s taught in law schools and essentially what Lawrence v. Texas used (though that case went out of its way to not clarify the what they actually used)</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/31/45151/comment-page-1#comment-124911</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2012 06:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45151#comment-124911</guid>
		<description>Straight Grandmother,

I think it is great that you write a letter. I really do. 

But before you do, please do a little bit of research on the subject.  And please check in with some activists whose opinions you respect. 

Until fairly recently it was the term that the gay community used.  It wasn&#039;t intended to say that gay people choose to be gay. And as we came to see that implication, we moved to orientation. 

But not everyone got that memo. Within the last month I read a passionate appeal in a newspaper for people to stand up against bigotry and let people marry whomever they love no matter their sexual preference. Sure it wasn&#039;t the best word choice, but their heart was so with us I couldn&#039;t be upset. 

(A similar thing I still hear is, &quot;people should be able to marry who they choose to love&quot; which also really means well but carries baggage.)

My take on this is that Judge Boudin thought he was using the appropriate and socially accepted term. In fact, I think he would be surprised that amidst this ruling which is so valuable to our community and which so thoroughly refutes what our detractors claim, that someone is upset by the term he used. 

But don&#039;t take my word for it, ask around. And if what I said is echoed by others you respect, perhaps it would be more appropriate to write a letter of thanks for this judge ruling for equality. And perhaps as a minor &quot;by the way&quot; you could let him know that &quot;sexual orientation&quot; is preferred over &quot;sexual preference&quot;.

But really I think that appreciation for the ruling should far outweigh any possible lack in etiquette.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Straight Grandmother,</p>
<p>I think it is great that you write a letter. I really do. </p>
<p>But before you do, please do a little bit of research on the subject.  And please check in with some activists whose opinions you respect. </p>
<p>Until fairly recently it was the term that the gay community used.  It wasn&#8217;t intended to say that gay people choose to be gay. And as we came to see that implication, we moved to orientation. </p>
<p>But not everyone got that memo. Within the last month I read a passionate appeal in a newspaper for people to stand up against bigotry and let people marry whomever they love no matter their sexual preference. Sure it wasn&#8217;t the best word choice, but their heart was so with us I couldn&#8217;t be upset. </p>
<p>(A similar thing I still hear is, &#8220;people should be able to marry who they choose to love&#8221; which also really means well but carries baggage.)</p>
<p>My take on this is that Judge Boudin thought he was using the appropriate and socially accepted term. In fact, I think he would be surprised that amidst this ruling which is so valuable to our community and which so thoroughly refutes what our detractors claim, that someone is upset by the term he used. </p>
<p>But don&#8217;t take my word for it, ask around. And if what I said is echoed by others you respect, perhaps it would be more appropriate to write a letter of thanks for this judge ruling for equality. And perhaps as a minor &#8220;by the way&#8221; you could let him know that &#8220;sexual orientation&#8221; is preferred over &#8220;sexual preference&#8221;.</p>
<p>But really I think that appreciation for the ruling should far outweigh any possible lack in etiquette.</p>
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		<title>By: StraightGrandmother</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/31/45151/comment-page-1#comment-124892</link>
		<dc:creator>StraightGrandmother</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2012 03:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45151#comment-124892</guid>
		<description>Well Timothy, I am going to sent a letter to the Judge and tell him about using the word preference. 

I kinda disagree with you about the word wives. In fact in Massachusetts, which is what and where this court case is about, legally they are wives. Why is he diminishing the women by not recognizing their marriage and instead only calling it by partner? 

I am not going to do a mean letter, but rather a persuasive one, but this is the first ruling I have read where sexual minorities are referred to as having a &quot;preference&quot;

I doubt that he did it thoughtlessly, but if it was, by the time he is done reading my letter he will know that it was a thoughtless way to refer to a person&#039;s sexual orientation. And if it was done purposefully he will know that I an all sexual minorities reject that. Again I&#039;ll be nice but I am going to write a letter. I always try and do something when I see a wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Timothy, I am going to sent a letter to the Judge and tell him about using the word preference. </p>
<p>I kinda disagree with you about the word wives. In fact in Massachusetts, which is what and where this court case is about, legally they are wives. Why is he diminishing the women by not recognizing their marriage and instead only calling it by partner? </p>
<p>I am not going to do a mean letter, but rather a persuasive one, but this is the first ruling I have read where sexual minorities are referred to as having a &#8220;preference&#8221;</p>
<p>I doubt that he did it thoughtlessly, but if it was, by the time he is done reading my letter he will know that it was a thoughtless way to refer to a person&#8217;s sexual orientation. And if it was done purposefully he will know that I an all sexual minorities reject that. Again I&#8217;ll be nice but I am going to write a letter. I always try and do something when I see a wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: ebohlman</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/31/45151/comment-page-1#comment-124891</link>
		<dc:creator>ebohlman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2012 03:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45151#comment-124891</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s not forget that in point 4, Boudin&#039;s reasoning was exactly that of Rob T&#039;s post from yesterday. The sentence that unfortunately used &quot;preference&quot; was speaking to the just-beneath-the-surface assumption of the antis that if you just make it hard enough for same-sex couples to marry, they&#039;ll have an incentive to turn straight. That&#039;s the first time I&#039;ve seen it confronted explicitly in a ruling.

The standard of scrutiny they used isn&#039;t all that new; it&#039;s been around since &lt;i&gt;Moreno&lt;/i&gt; in the early seventies. It&#039;s commonly called &quot;rational basis with teeth&quot;. It&#039;s the same standard used in &lt;i&gt;Romer&lt;/i&gt; and officially used in &lt;i&gt;Lawrence&lt;/i&gt; (some argue that the SCOTUS actually applied intermediate scrutiny in the latter while pretending not to).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s not forget that in point 4, Boudin&#8217;s reasoning was exactly that of Rob T&#8217;s post from yesterday. The sentence that unfortunately used &#8220;preference&#8221; was speaking to the just-beneath-the-surface assumption of the antis that if you just make it hard enough for same-sex couples to marry, they&#8217;ll have an incentive to turn straight. That&#8217;s the first time I&#8217;ve seen it confronted explicitly in a ruling.</p>
<p>The standard of scrutiny they used isn&#8217;t all that new; it&#8217;s been around since <i>Moreno</i> in the early seventies. It&#8217;s commonly called &#8220;rational basis with teeth&#8221;. It&#8217;s the same standard used in <i>Romer</i> and officially used in <i>Lawrence</i> (some argue that the SCOTUS actually applied intermediate scrutiny in the latter while pretending not to).</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/31/45151/comment-page-1#comment-124877</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 23:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45151#comment-124877</guid>
		<description>SG - 

I think you may possibly be finding insult where none is intended.  Judge Boudin didn&#039;t say &quot;wives&quot; because DOMA stops them from being wives and forces them to be just &quot;partners&quot;.

His point is that DOMA may indeed prevent them from being wives but it doesn&#039;t stop them from raising children together.  And therefore the idea that stopping them from being wives somehow is necessary because of children has no logical basis.

This guy wrote a compelling ruling which sided with us in very strong terms.  And this section, in particular, is a complete slap-down of NOM&#039;s entire media campaign.  I really don&#039;t think that he&#039;s anti-gay; if so, he would have had plenty of excuses to rule against us.

(I agree that &quot;preference&quot; is a term that should be dropped.  But I still hear it from our allies and even from some gay people.  That a 73 year old straight man uses it probably isn&#039;t an indication of deliberate insult.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SG &#8211; </p>
<p>I think you may possibly be finding insult where none is intended.  Judge Boudin didn&#8217;t say &#8220;wives&#8221; because DOMA stops them from being wives and forces them to be just &#8220;partners&#8221;.</p>
<p>His point is that DOMA may indeed prevent them from being wives but it doesn&#8217;t stop them from raising children together.  And therefore the idea that stopping them from being wives somehow is necessary because of children has no logical basis.</p>
<p>This guy wrote a compelling ruling which sided with us in very strong terms.  And this section, in particular, is a complete slap-down of NOM&#8217;s entire media campaign.  I really don&#8217;t think that he&#8217;s anti-gay; if so, he would have had plenty of excuses to rule against us.</p>
<p>(I agree that &#8220;preference&#8221; is a term that should be dropped.  But I still hear it from our allies and even from some gay people.  That a 73 year old straight man uses it probably isn&#8217;t an indication of deliberate insult.)</p>
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		<title>By: StraightGrandmother</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/31/45151/comment-page-1#comment-124875</link>
		<dc:creator>StraightGrandmother</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 23:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45151#comment-124875</guid>
		<description>This phrase - &quot;or prevent a woman partner from giving birth to a child to be raised by both partners.&quot;

Why didn&#039;t he say wives? By both wives. They are married, that is what the case is about.

Also in another section of the opinion he does NOT say sexual ORIENTATION he says Sexual PREFERENCE. By deliberately using the word &quot;preference&quot; he diminishes homosexuality as merely a &quot;choice&quot; I did not like that at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This phrase &#8211; &#8220;or prevent a woman partner from giving birth to a child to be raised by both partners.&#8221;</p>
<p>Why didn&#8217;t he say wives? By both wives. They are married, that is what the case is about.</p>
<p>Also in another section of the opinion he does NOT say sexual ORIENTATION he says Sexual PREFERENCE. By deliberately using the word &#8220;preference&#8221; he diminishes homosexuality as merely a &#8220;choice&#8221; I did not like that at all.</p>
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		<title>By: occono</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/05/31/45151/comment-page-1#comment-124855</link>
		<dc:creator>occono</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 19:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=45151#comment-124855</guid>
		<description>However, it&#039;s straight on to the Supreme Court now: the full court is only 6 judges, so an en banc hearing would be pointless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>However, it&#8217;s straight on to the Supreme Court now: the full court is only 6 judges, so an en banc hearing would be pointless.</p>
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