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	<title>Comments on: Exodus 2012, Part 1: Then vs. Now, Or What A Long Strange Trip It&#8217;s Been</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/09/46349</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Michael C</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/09/46349/comment-page-1#comment-132043</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2012 17:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46349#comment-132043</guid>
		<description>Thanks for finding that quote, Karen. While your focus is on the self harm of Exodus&#039; ministry, I am further shocked by the damage they can do to those close to their gay clients. For me, blaming parents and deceiving &quot;sympathetic spouses&quot; is a worse crime than shaming gay people.  

&quot;Should a person ever develop a desire to explore a heterosexual relationship, he or she will find it difficult to overcome the label [gay] that can deter interested parties.”

Buchanan is correct. Telling a potential life partner &quot;I may never be physically attracted to you&quot; will deter them from marrying you. 

...and it should.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for finding that quote, Karen. While your focus is on the self harm of Exodus&#8217; ministry, I am further shocked by the damage they can do to those close to their gay clients. For me, blaming parents and deceiving &#8220;sympathetic spouses&#8221; is a worse crime than shaming gay people.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Should a person ever develop a desire to explore a heterosexual relationship, he or she will find it difficult to overcome the label [gay] that can deter interested parties.”</p>
<p>Buchanan is correct. Telling a potential life partner &#8220;I may never be physically attracted to you&#8221; will deter them from marrying you. </p>
<p>&#8230;and it should.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/09/46349/comment-page-1#comment-131785</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2012 15:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46349#comment-131785</guid>
		<description>I am skeptical about what is happening at Exodus--especially since a very sudden about face. Yes, there has been some positive changes. But, take a look at this article that just got published by Exodus Vice President, Jeff Buchanan three days ago: http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/10/the-new-sexual-identity-crisis-2/

There is a section specifically about how a person should not call themselves gay because it interferes with hope for change in sexual orientation (see below). This just confirms that Chambers and company are engaging in the same old double speak that has been going on for years. While Chambers says Exodus is getting away from fixation on change, Buchanan is saying gays should “wait” and “hope” for it. 

Quote:

    &quot;3) Absolute Anchor

    While some who suffer receive immediate explanations from God, others are challenged to wait. In the midst of waiting, we must always have hope. An identity rooted in same-sex attractions serves as an anchor that keeps us docked in our present circumstance. We have accepted our lot in life, and experience now becomes our identity. Should a person ever develop a desire to explore a heterosexual relationship, he or she will find it difficult to overcome the label that can deter interested parties.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am skeptical about what is happening at Exodus&#8211;especially since a very sudden about face. Yes, there has been some positive changes. But, take a look at this article that just got published by Exodus Vice President, Jeff Buchanan three days ago: <a href="http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/10/the-new-sexual-identity-crisis-2/" rel="nofollow">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/10/the-new-sexual-identity-crisis-2/</a></p>
<p>There is a section specifically about how a person should not call themselves gay because it interferes with hope for change in sexual orientation (see below). This just confirms that Chambers and company are engaging in the same old double speak that has been going on for years. While Chambers says Exodus is getting away from fixation on change, Buchanan is saying gays should “wait” and “hope” for it. </p>
<p>Quote:</p>
<p>    &#8220;3) Absolute Anchor</p>
<p>    While some who suffer receive immediate explanations from God, others are challenged to wait. In the midst of waiting, we must always have hope. An identity rooted in same-sex attractions serves as an anchor that keeps us docked in our present circumstance. We have accepted our lot in life, and experience now becomes our identity. Should a person ever develop a desire to explore a heterosexual relationship, he or she will find it difficult to overcome the label that can deter interested parties.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/09/46349/comment-page-1#comment-131781</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2012 14:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46349#comment-131781</guid>
		<description>Zeke,

Okay, that has merit. While Exodus was never the original source of the message, they did contribute or insufficiently contradict. (although to be nuanced, while the conservative evangelical worldview put homosexuality itself as the culprit, exodus would have been a smidgen better and have said that it was accepting and acting on one&#039;s same sex attraction - theologically a vast improvement but in terms of mental health not much at all). 




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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zeke,</p>
<p>Okay, that has merit. While Exodus was never the original source of the message, they did contribute or insufficiently contradict. (although to be nuanced, while the conservative evangelical worldview put homosexuality itself as the culprit, exodus would have been a smidgen better and have said that it was accepting and acting on one&#8217;s same sex attraction &#8211; theologically a vast improvement but in terms of mental health not much at all). </p>
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		<title>By: TampaZeke</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/09/46349/comment-page-1#comment-131500</link>
		<dc:creator>TampaZeke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2012 03:20:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46349#comment-131500</guid>
		<description>Timothy, that&#039;s a fair point.  However I think Exodus did promote the very unhappiness, self-hate and despair for gay people that they then would step in and say was caused, not by homophobia, but by homosexuality itself and that THEY had the answer to cure the unhappiness and despair.  In your example, it would be like the Oxygen therapy sales people infecting people with HIV and then telling them that their therapy was the answer.  Even if they really, really believed that the therapy would work it wouldn&#039;t excuse them promoting, through rhetoric, seminars, billboards, etc., the very thing that they are trying to cure.  I&#039;ve spoken to many, many people &quot;struggling with unwanted same sex attraction&quot; and it seems that a very common theme is that the hate being &quot;other&quot;, &quot;outcast&quot;, ostracized, hated, pitied, etc. and they blame all of these things, and the resulting drug/alcohol and sexual addiction on their homosexuality instead of on homophobia.  Exodus very much played on that and promoted that perception.  I think anyone who has been through Exodus, Love Won Out or any of the other ex-gay ministries would attest to that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy, that&#8217;s a fair point.  However I think Exodus did promote the very unhappiness, self-hate and despair for gay people that they then would step in and say was caused, not by homophobia, but by homosexuality itself and that THEY had the answer to cure the unhappiness and despair.  In your example, it would be like the Oxygen therapy sales people infecting people with HIV and then telling them that their therapy was the answer.  Even if they really, really believed that the therapy would work it wouldn&#8217;t excuse them promoting, through rhetoric, seminars, billboards, etc., the very thing that they are trying to cure.  I&#8217;ve spoken to many, many people &#8220;struggling with unwanted same sex attraction&#8221; and it seems that a very common theme is that the hate being &#8220;other&#8221;, &#8220;outcast&#8221;, ostracized, hated, pitied, etc. and they blame all of these things, and the resulting drug/alcohol and sexual addiction on their homosexuality instead of on homophobia.  Exodus very much played on that and promoted that perception.  I think anyone who has been through Exodus, Love Won Out or any of the other ex-gay ministries would attest to that.</p>
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		<title>By: Neon Genesis</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/09/46349/comment-page-1#comment-131405</link>
		<dc:creator>Neon Genesis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 17:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46349#comment-131405</guid>
		<description>So now Exodus is back to dodging questions and being vague: http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2012/07/exodus-and-alan-chambers-still-vague-on-change/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So now Exodus is back to dodging questions and being vague: <a href="http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2012/07/exodus-and-alan-chambers-still-vague-on-change/" rel="nofollow">http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2012/07/exodus-and-alan-chambers-still-vague-on-change/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/09/46349/comment-page-1#comment-131389</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46349#comment-131389</guid>
		<description>Zeke,

I disagree with characterizing Exodus as snake oil salesmen. (However, I do not consider it a slur or a phrase that is intended solely to demean).

Generally a snake oil salesman is pure deception, using trickery to present and profit from a product that they know has no value. I don&#039;t think that fits well with Exodus - even during the &quot;change&quot; days. 

First, most of Exodus&#039; focus was inward. They never tried to sell most of us anything and it has never been about money to them. 

And Exodus leadership and members believed in their product. They were self medicating and any testimony about healing was as much hope and faith and determination as it was, shall we say, less than factual. 

We are talking perception about intention, something difficult to measure even in ones own self, and I don&#039;t fault you for having a different perspective than mine or insist that I&#039;m more accurate. 

But, for me, another comparison comes to mind. 

In 1985 my young friend Vance excitedly told me about a new treatment for AIDS which involved oxygen. He was certain that this was the answer. 

It wasn&#039;t - and I attended his funeral later that year - but he wasn&#039;t trying to sell me anything or deceive me or trick me in any way. He was sharing with me his desperate hope. 

And while we believe that Exodus was trying to cure an ill that doesn&#039;t need curing, their efforts have always felt to me to be more desperation than deception.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zeke,</p>
<p>I disagree with characterizing Exodus as snake oil salesmen. (However, I do not consider it a slur or a phrase that is intended solely to demean).</p>
<p>Generally a snake oil salesman is pure deception, using trickery to present and profit from a product that they know has no value. I don&#8217;t think that fits well with Exodus &#8211; even during the &#8220;change&#8221; days. </p>
<p>First, most of Exodus&#8217; focus was inward. They never tried to sell most of us anything and it has never been about money to them. </p>
<p>And Exodus leadership and members believed in their product. They were self medicating and any testimony about healing was as much hope and faith and determination as it was, shall we say, less than factual. </p>
<p>We are talking perception about intention, something difficult to measure even in ones own self, and I don&#8217;t fault you for having a different perspective than mine or insist that I&#8217;m more accurate. </p>
<p>But, for me, another comparison comes to mind. </p>
<p>In 1985 my young friend Vance excitedly told me about a new treatment for AIDS which involved oxygen. He was certain that this was the answer. </p>
<p>It wasn&#8217;t &#8211; and I attended his funeral later that year &#8211; but he wasn&#8217;t trying to sell me anything or deceive me or trick me in any way. He was sharing with me his desperate hope. </p>
<p>And while we believe that Exodus was trying to cure an ill that doesn&#8217;t need curing, their efforts have always felt to me to be more desperation than deception.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/09/46349/comment-page-1#comment-131364</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 14:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46349#comment-131364</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the great coverage Jim. My concern with this new shift in Exodus&#039; message is how it&#039;s going to play out at the individual &amp; church level. Perhaps you&#039;ll get into this in the future posts, but was there any attempt to couch the &quot;new goals&quot; (celibacy or mixed-orientation marriages) in specific terms so that it doesn&#039;t get out of hand when a pastor tries to take such a message to the pulpit? Or is that not their focus?

Put another way: if Exodus is now &quot;supporting them in their daily walk&quot; as opposed to trying to change them are they teaching or explicitly encouraging church-leadership to do the same? 

Thanks &amp; congrats on your recent award.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the great coverage Jim. My concern with this new shift in Exodus&#8217; message is how it&#8217;s going to play out at the individual &amp; church level. Perhaps you&#8217;ll get into this in the future posts, but was there any attempt to couch the &#8220;new goals&#8221; (celibacy or mixed-orientation marriages) in specific terms so that it doesn&#8217;t get out of hand when a pastor tries to take such a message to the pulpit? Or is that not their focus?</p>
<p>Put another way: if Exodus is now &#8220;supporting them in their daily walk&#8221; as opposed to trying to change them are they teaching or explicitly encouraging church-leadership to do the same? </p>
<p>Thanks &amp; congrats on your recent award.</p>
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		<title>By: David C.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/09/46349/comment-page-1#comment-131265</link>
		<dc:creator>David C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 05:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46349#comment-131265</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt; 
I think that the change that we need to hear more about is how people can change or reject their religious beliefs to enable themselves to grow into human beings that are fulfilled, not stunted or damaged, by their sexual drive. &lt;i&gt;—F Young&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Helping people to find a middle way might in fact be the best thing for all concerned.

Ask just about any member of the LGBT community whether or not they made a &quot;choice&quot; to be gay and they are almost certainly going to tell you that they &lt;i&gt;didn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; choose to be &quot;same-sex attracted&quot; or &quot;homosexual&quot;. They didn&#039;t one day wake up and say &quot;henceforth I am going to be attracted to members of the same sex&quot;.

It&#039;s also very unlikely you will find the parents of gay people started out practically day one indoctrinating their children into becoming gay, creating a climate in which it would be unthinkable for them to be anything but gay.

At the risk of overusing a cliche, gay people are born gay. Asymmetrically however, people are not born &quot;religious&quot; nor &quot;believing&quot; in anything.

This is of course an area of contention between the fundamentalism of much of Christianity with its long standing perception of homosexuality, and the reality of being gay as experienced by a truly gay (or otherwise positioned near the higher valued end the Kinsey spectrum) person. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;
I don’t expect that from Exodus, but, seriously, there is a dire need for this type of change and one would think that people would be willing to pay for it. I would think that it could be as good and lucrative a business model as the ex-gay business. &lt;i&gt;—F Young&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Proposing the monetization of &quot;defaithing&quot; or &quot;dechurching&quot; of people is, at first glance, unsettling. It just sounds wrong. On the other hand, when religious practice turns dangerous or harmful, &quot;therapy&quot; may in fact be something worthy of consideration when belief engenders feelings of guilt, inadequacy, or worthlessness. Many people can and do seek counseling or therapy to address such feelings. Just because these conditions are induced by damage that may have been done in the name of religion doesn&#039;t make them any less harmful.

In reality, there is a middle road, one that takes us a step closer to a more perfected personal (and interpersonal) tranquility: the acceptance of the differences between us and the emergence of societal norms that respect the need, even right, of the individual to grow up in a healthy environment, free of outmoded beliefs in old-age thinking, but also free to embrace their vision of their place in the universe. Implied in this is the need to respect the role of faith in the lives of many and how individual interpretations of legends and sacred texts can for some people be beneficial and help them to be more fulfilled and comforted.

Christianity has, over the centuries, incorporated into its traditions some very unhelpful beliefs and orthodoxy. Many of those missteps were based on the mistaken belief that because something is unknown, its operation can only be ascribed to God&#039;s will. We now know this to be completely wrong in many cases and we have rejected superstitions, practices, and traditions that were embraced by those that peopled the stories and parables of the bible. The time has come to add condemnation of homosexuality to that list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
I think that the change that we need to hear more about is how people can change or reject their religious beliefs to enable themselves to grow into human beings that are fulfilled, not stunted or damaged, by their sexual drive. <i>—F Young</i>
</p></blockquote>
<p>Helping people to find a middle way might in fact be the best thing for all concerned.</p>
<p>Ask just about any member of the LGBT community whether or not they made a &#8220;choice&#8221; to be gay and they are almost certainly going to tell you that they <i>didn&#8217;t</i> choose to be &#8220;same-sex attracted&#8221; or &#8220;homosexual&#8221;. They didn&#8217;t one day wake up and say &#8220;henceforth I am going to be attracted to members of the same sex&#8221;.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also very unlikely you will find the parents of gay people started out practically day one indoctrinating their children into becoming gay, creating a climate in which it would be unthinkable for them to be anything but gay.</p>
<p>At the risk of overusing a cliche, gay people are born gay. Asymmetrically however, people are not born &#8220;religious&#8221; nor &#8220;believing&#8221; in anything.</p>
<p>This is of course an area of contention between the fundamentalism of much of Christianity with its long standing perception of homosexuality, and the reality of being gay as experienced by a truly gay (or otherwise positioned near the higher valued end the Kinsey spectrum) person. </p>
<blockquote><p>
I don’t expect that from Exodus, but, seriously, there is a dire need for this type of change and one would think that people would be willing to pay for it. I would think that it could be as good and lucrative a business model as the ex-gay business. <i>—F Young</i>
</p></blockquote>
<p>Proposing the monetization of &#8220;defaithing&#8221; or &#8220;dechurching&#8221; of people is, at first glance, unsettling. It just sounds wrong. On the other hand, when religious practice turns dangerous or harmful, &#8220;therapy&#8221; may in fact be something worthy of consideration when belief engenders feelings of guilt, inadequacy, or worthlessness. Many people can and do seek counseling or therapy to address such feelings. Just because these conditions are induced by damage that may have been done in the name of religion doesn&#8217;t make them any less harmful.</p>
<p>In reality, there is a middle road, one that takes us a step closer to a more perfected personal (and interpersonal) tranquility: the acceptance of the differences between us and the emergence of societal norms that respect the need, even right, of the individual to grow up in a healthy environment, free of outmoded beliefs in old-age thinking, but also free to embrace their vision of their place in the universe. Implied in this is the need to respect the role of faith in the lives of many and how individual interpretations of legends and sacred texts can for some people be beneficial and help them to be more fulfilled and comforted.</p>
<p>Christianity has, over the centuries, incorporated into its traditions some very unhelpful beliefs and orthodoxy. Many of those missteps were based on the mistaken belief that because something is unknown, its operation can only be ascribed to God&#8217;s will. We now know this to be completely wrong in many cases and we have rejected superstitions, practices, and traditions that were embraced by those that peopled the stories and parables of the bible. The time has come to add condemnation of homosexuality to that list.</p>
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		<title>By: TampaZeke</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/09/46349/comment-page-1#comment-131214</link>
		<dc:creator>TampaZeke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 00:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46349#comment-131214</guid>
		<description>Concerning my reference to Think Progress...I read a commentary on another site, I don&#039;t remember where now, that cited a writer at Think Progress who was responding to the conference and the new and improved positions at Exodus.  They were talking about specific things that were being said at the conference and were showing how at the same conference there were conflicting statements being made.  I&#039;m still trying to figure out where I read it but from the first hand accounts that were being cited it sounded pretty clear that the person was speaking from first hand knowledge.  At the time I read it I had no idea that I would need to remember details about the article or where I read it.  Now I wish I had, if for no other reason than to know if my reference was accurate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Concerning my reference to Think Progress&#8230;I read a commentary on another site, I don&#8217;t remember where now, that cited a writer at Think Progress who was responding to the conference and the new and improved positions at Exodus.  They were talking about specific things that were being said at the conference and were showing how at the same conference there were conflicting statements being made.  I&#8217;m still trying to figure out where I read it but from the first hand accounts that were being cited it sounded pretty clear that the person was speaking from first hand knowledge.  At the time I read it I had no idea that I would need to remember details about the article or where I read it.  Now I wish I had, if for no other reason than to know if my reference was accurate.</p>
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		<title>By: TampaZeke</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/09/46349/comment-page-1#comment-131211</link>
		<dc:creator>TampaZeke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2012 00:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46349#comment-131211</guid>
		<description>I appreciate what you&#039;re doing Jim. I always have.  I certainly believe that this is very much worth covering.  I just don&#039;t trust these people.  I have no reason to at this point.  I don&#039;t think snake oil salesmen change their ways over night.  But to be clear, I&#039;ve NEVER called them, or any other religious or non-religious person &quot;evil incarnate&quot;.  People may not like the term &quot;snake oil salesman&quot; but I don&#039;t think many people can argue that the term is inaccurate.

And I&#039;m sorry if you&#039;re offended that I think your post sounded like &quot;singing praises&quot; but that is my opinion.  Whatever you think that says about me, so be it.

I do look forward to your next installment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate what you&#8217;re doing Jim. I always have.  I certainly believe that this is very much worth covering.  I just don&#8217;t trust these people.  I have no reason to at this point.  I don&#8217;t think snake oil salesmen change their ways over night.  But to be clear, I&#8217;ve NEVER called them, or any other religious or non-religious person &#8220;evil incarnate&#8221;.  People may not like the term &#8220;snake oil salesman&#8221; but I don&#8217;t think many people can argue that the term is inaccurate.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m sorry if you&#8217;re offended that I think your post sounded like &#8220;singing praises&#8221; but that is my opinion.  Whatever you think that says about me, so be it.</p>
<p>I do look forward to your next installment.</p>
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