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	<title>Comments on: Boy Scouts Affirm Gay Ban</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/17/46596</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/17/46596/comment-page-1#comment-132724</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2012 07:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46596#comment-132724</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve said it before and I&#039;ll say it again -- the rank and file of the BSA are caught in a lose/lose here.  

Parents entrust their kids to Scouts for extended periods -- I attended overnight camp for 2 weeks at a stretch, where I cooked my own food on fires I built with wood I gathered and cut, yes with an axe (not all at the same time - we did have a duty roster).  It&#039;s hard enough - kids inevitably go home with broken limbs, burns, snakebites, bee-stings, and who knows what else.  Not a year went by someone didn&#039;t end up getting driven to the nurse, or maybe to the hospital.  Camp was FUN, and the trips throughout the year were some of my best memories.  

But Scouts is dependent on the goodwill of parents to &quot;stay in business&quot; -- that means that they are subject to the whims, prejudices, misperceptions, stereotypes, irrational fears, and politics of parents -- a group notably irrational when dealing with others concerning their kids.  Even without sexuality ever being an issue, I saw more ugliness and viciousness initiated by adults during Scouting that I care to remember.  That we were mostly kept at arm&#039;s length from it was a testament to the great adult leadership we had.

So.  If parents have a stupid notion that gay adults in the woods with their kids is a bad idea and will lead to molestation, Scouting has a problem in changing their policy - they will lose thousands of scouts as stupid parents pull them.  Then, with one single controversy or unfortunate situation and you easily have a Penn State situation.  Corporate sponsorships will evaporate.  Government largess in the form of access to public spaces goes away as politicians duck for cover.  It&#039;s a tinderbox.  

But, parents who understand that gays are no more likely to be childmolesters than anyone else, and find the gay ban ugly and discriminatory will... pull their kids out of Scouting... by the thousands.  Corporate sponsorships evaporate.  Scouting is taken to court and sued so that it now must pay full price for spaces it formerly got for a song, or is banned altogether.  

It&#039;s a lose / lose situation.  Scouting must follow here, because it is entirely dependent on the parents.  It cannot lead.  Given that sexuality isn&#039;t just peripheral but utterly absent from Scout teaching (other than about one line in the handbook about respecting girls and your body), it would be extremely weird for them to suddenly become the &quot;hey, gays are pretty cool&quot; ambassadors to American families.  

It&#039;s not their job.  

They&#039;ve been stupid, ham-handed, ignorant, and ugly in their handling of the issue.  At the same time, they&#039;d have been stupid, mismanaged, and quixotic if they had embraced gay leaders, especially considering that the original court cases were prior to laws criminalizing gays being struck down by the SCOTUS.  

When I was a lad, there were gay scoutmasters -- I found out years later I had one.  (We also had one of two female assistant scoutmasters in the entire country).  But none of that was discussed or made issue of.  Adults private lives were off-limits (assuming they weren&#039;t criminals, obviously).  Forcing this issue to the front was just  terribly damaging.

And, tragically, it&#039;s the boys who suffer.  Scouting is an incredible institution and program for teaching self-reliance, teamwork, leading, following, citizenship from town to country to world, and the focus on environmentalism is unmatched.  They taught a gay kid like me that, in fact, I&#039;m not only great with a .22, it&#039;s huge fun.  They insisted that I learn to swim, thank god.  And they draw shy withdrawn kids out of their shells and provide them with peers -- something that saves lives.  It&#039;s baked in.  

How sad that they&#039;ve allowed themselves to remain enmeshed with this issue - known now more for this than for helping old ladies across the street - and have become synonymous with discrimination.  

The solution to allow each community to vet adult leaders for themselves would have been appropriate.  And it would have side-stepped the &quot;ambassadorial&quot; question.  It would be consistent with libertarian values, and allowed parents to remain in control.  It&#039;s a huge missed opportunity, and one this leadership should be deeply ashamed of.  

But patience, friends.  Part of me deeply suspects whether or not a Jewish or African-American scoutmaster would have been well-loved (or allowed) in 1920... they may be following, but they will, ultimately, follow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve said it before and I&#8217;ll say it again &#8212; the rank and file of the BSA are caught in a lose/lose here.  </p>
<p>Parents entrust their kids to Scouts for extended periods &#8212; I attended overnight camp for 2 weeks at a stretch, where I cooked my own food on fires I built with wood I gathered and cut, yes with an axe (not all at the same time &#8211; we did have a duty roster).  It&#8217;s hard enough &#8211; kids inevitably go home with broken limbs, burns, snakebites, bee-stings, and who knows what else.  Not a year went by someone didn&#8217;t end up getting driven to the nurse, or maybe to the hospital.  Camp was FUN, and the trips throughout the year were some of my best memories.  </p>
<p>But Scouts is dependent on the goodwill of parents to &#8220;stay in business&#8221; &#8212; that means that they are subject to the whims, prejudices, misperceptions, stereotypes, irrational fears, and politics of parents &#8212; a group notably irrational when dealing with others concerning their kids.  Even without sexuality ever being an issue, I saw more ugliness and viciousness initiated by adults during Scouting that I care to remember.  That we were mostly kept at arm&#8217;s length from it was a testament to the great adult leadership we had.</p>
<p>So.  If parents have a stupid notion that gay adults in the woods with their kids is a bad idea and will lead to molestation, Scouting has a problem in changing their policy &#8211; they will lose thousands of scouts as stupid parents pull them.  Then, with one single controversy or unfortunate situation and you easily have a Penn State situation.  Corporate sponsorships will evaporate.  Government largess in the form of access to public spaces goes away as politicians duck for cover.  It&#8217;s a tinderbox.  </p>
<p>But, parents who understand that gays are no more likely to be childmolesters than anyone else, and find the gay ban ugly and discriminatory will&#8230; pull their kids out of Scouting&#8230; by the thousands.  Corporate sponsorships evaporate.  Scouting is taken to court and sued so that it now must pay full price for spaces it formerly got for a song, or is banned altogether.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s a lose / lose situation.  Scouting must follow here, because it is entirely dependent on the parents.  It cannot lead.  Given that sexuality isn&#8217;t just peripheral but utterly absent from Scout teaching (other than about one line in the handbook about respecting girls and your body), it would be extremely weird for them to suddenly become the &#8220;hey, gays are pretty cool&#8221; ambassadors to American families.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s not their job.  </p>
<p>They&#8217;ve been stupid, ham-handed, ignorant, and ugly in their handling of the issue.  At the same time, they&#8217;d have been stupid, mismanaged, and quixotic if they had embraced gay leaders, especially considering that the original court cases were prior to laws criminalizing gays being struck down by the SCOTUS.  </p>
<p>When I was a lad, there were gay scoutmasters &#8212; I found out years later I had one.  (We also had one of two female assistant scoutmasters in the entire country).  But none of that was discussed or made issue of.  Adults private lives were off-limits (assuming they weren&#8217;t criminals, obviously).  Forcing this issue to the front was just  terribly damaging.</p>
<p>And, tragically, it&#8217;s the boys who suffer.  Scouting is an incredible institution and program for teaching self-reliance, teamwork, leading, following, citizenship from town to country to world, and the focus on environmentalism is unmatched.  They taught a gay kid like me that, in fact, I&#8217;m not only great with a .22, it&#8217;s huge fun.  They insisted that I learn to swim, thank god.  And they draw shy withdrawn kids out of their shells and provide them with peers &#8212; something that saves lives.  It&#8217;s baked in.  </p>
<p>How sad that they&#8217;ve allowed themselves to remain enmeshed with this issue &#8211; known now more for this than for helping old ladies across the street &#8211; and have become synonymous with discrimination.  </p>
<p>The solution to allow each community to vet adult leaders for themselves would have been appropriate.  And it would have side-stepped the &#8220;ambassadorial&#8221; question.  It would be consistent with libertarian values, and allowed parents to remain in control.  It&#8217;s a huge missed opportunity, and one this leadership should be deeply ashamed of.  </p>
<p>But patience, friends.  Part of me deeply suspects whether or not a Jewish or African-American scoutmaster would have been well-loved (or allowed) in 1920&#8230; they may be following, but they will, ultimately, follow.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: ezam</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/17/46596/comment-page-1#comment-132679</link>
		<dc:creator>ezam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:01:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46596#comment-132679</guid>
		<description>When is Wayne Perry going to take over and is he actually going to do something to repeal the policy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When is Wayne Perry going to take over and is he actually going to do something to repeal the policy?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: chiMaxx</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/17/46596/comment-page-1#comment-132672</link>
		<dc:creator>chiMaxx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46596#comment-132672</guid>
		<description>My question is simple. Haw can a committee representing “a diversity of perspectives and opinions” on this issue come to a unanimous conclusion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My question is simple. Haw can a committee representing “a diversity of perspectives and opinions” on this issue come to a unanimous conclusion?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nathaniel</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/17/46596/comment-page-1#comment-132667</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathaniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:23:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46596#comment-132667</guid>
		<description>How convenient that, just months after a well-publicized national push to end the anti-gay discrimination, a secret panel finished their two year review, resulting in affirmation of the policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How convenient that, just months after a well-publicized national push to end the anti-gay discrimination, a secret panel finished their two year review, resulting in affirmation of the policy.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/17/46596/comment-page-1#comment-132636</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2012 16:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46596#comment-132636</guid>
		<description>well gosh, who would question the opinions of &quot;professional scout executives and adult volunteers&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well gosh, who would question the opinions of &#8220;professional scout executives and adult volunteers&#8221;?</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ben in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/07/17/46596/comment-page-1#comment-132635</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=46596#comment-132635</guid>
		<description>And yet, and yet...

Their molestation problem continues.

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And yet, and yet&#8230;</p>
<p>Their molestation problem continues.</p>
<p>Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.</p>
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