Points 2 and 3 from the Box Turtle Bulletin mission page.

And no, I’m using my own feelings when I say it’s shameful to tell an individual who has worked for their rights and the rights of others all their adult life that they are standing in the way of your rights. I personally would feel ashamed if I laid that accusation on you or anyone else for expressing their view on a subject on a blog.

No, you are no clearer in your explanation than you were in the original post. You talk about us losing rights, but we haven’t. We haven’t been granted them or have had them recognized Nationally. So, the idea that I believe we need to be (maybe COMPORT would be a better term?) better than them to get where we need to go isn’t placing any barriers at all.

As for the work I have contributed, it was NOT an effort to teach you to suck eggs, it was a defense when someone tells me that I am the one standing in the way of our rights. As for you being older than me? I have no idea what age you are, nor you me. Don’t make the assumptions. I didn’t list ALL my efforts, just enough to explain why I disagreed with your assumptions.

Sorry about the caps, they are not intended to be yelling, I do not, unfortuantely know how to do italics and bold on this blog, and as such type the words I would have italicized or made bold in caps.

Asking us to be better sets an impossible condition for winning our rights. We are just as human as they, no better, no worse. Asking us to be different from them by being better to get the same rights makes it impossible for us to gain our rights. Am I clear yet?

And shouting like that seems pretty demanding to me.

“I also don’t have any idea how you equate what language we use in our struggle with losing the right to marry…”
Because I didn’t. Please read more carefully. By being worse than us they do not lose their rights, so why should we lose rights if we are worse than they are?

“It’s shameful to say I stand in the way of our equality.” Now you’re using their tactic of shaming.

And I’ve been doing this work a lot longer than you in a place where we’ve won a lot more rights than you have. Don’t try and teach your elders how to suck eggs.

I hardly think a discussion on the WORDS we use is setting an impossible barrier to our goals. And yes, we will win becasue we are right, but in the climate we are in, in order to sway public opinion, we DO have to be better than our foes. I also don’t have any idea how you equate what language we use in our struggle with losing the right to marry, I doubt that because we are articulate, responsible and respectful that that will move people against us. Quite the contrary, discussing the issues in a respectful manner has gotten us more support than calling people hateful names.

And Again, I don’t disagree with labeling Hate Organizations as such, I simply believe that when we adopt the language of those we disagree with, it does us more damage than good.

Pretty harsh words because I choose to express my view on a subject that came up on a blog. I don’t DEMAND that anyone follow my advice. You and everyone else are free to ignore it. I voiced my opinion and I believe what I stated, and I live my life that way. That’s all I think any of us can do, is live the way we believe we should.

I never once said to give up the fight, I never once said to cowtow, I never once said we were not deserving of Equal rights. I don’t see why a few of you are upset because I felt the language we use is sometimes just as nasty as that used agianst us. If you were honest, you’d admit the language gets ugly, like calling my Aunt a rapist enabler. That’s a sure way to convince someone to stand up and support our rights. And until the government actually does the right thing, that’s the only way we are going to get them.

I’m married, and live in a state that recognizes my marriage. For all intents and purposes, I’ve got mine and could walk away not caring if you got yours, but I don’t. I keep donating, writing letters, speaking up and doing the right thing. It’s shameful to say I stand in the way of our equality.

And thanks everyone else for proving that Timothy’s fears were unfounded by so quickly denouncing in no uncertain terms those on our side who even hint at dehumanizing our opponents. Well done! Why can’t just even one person on their side do the same?

And for those thinking that we should be better than our opponents (Robert), thanks for sabotaging our efforts and setting an impossible barrier to equality. Even straights convicted of the most foul crimes imaginable do not lose their right to marry, for example. Even if we were to a person worse than they, we would still deserve equal rights. We will win because we’re right, not because we’re better.

Your aunt enables an organization that treats child rape as class privilege. I know. At Loyola academy, where I attended, the president of the school utilized both a safehouse for troubled youth and a pre-fraternity social club as a tool for grooming his sexual exploits. For this, he was allowed to stay at the school from the 60′s until 1990, when the first hints of legal action were to be taken. He then ‘graduated’ from the high school to the university, where he was on the board for disciplining sexual offenders. He was part of the same religious order that would send pedophile members to native outposts in Alaska, so they could abuse people that weren’t white.

Look up Larry Reuter and the Jesuits, if you like. Keep in mind that the money that went to defend Larry and other members came from lay people. The institutional structure that kept him abusing my classmates was managed and paid for by lay people. Every single catholic that contributes to the catholic church ultimately finances and enables this activity, and its legal defense.

This is the truth.

If you believe the truth is hate, we have a difference. We’ve already proven time and again that you’re willing to lie to get your way. And that you’re unwilling to leave when you say you’re done.

I’m a hater, but your aunt enables rapists. Congratulations.

I mentioned earlier the fact that all Catholics get tarnished or blamed for the actions of their Priests, even those who condemn the actions and call for it to end and for the Priests who did it to be prosecuted. You claimed you never saw that one before, well, just look to Rowan Bristols latest screed, where he attacks my Aunt, and he says:

you mentioned in your post about your sainted aunt and her enablement of an institution that has turned child rape into a class-based privilege

This is the man you defend, when the issue gets complicated, he attacks me. He attacks my family. And he labels ALL Catholics with the issues of some of their priests.

Priya, you also wrote:
Robert, you have not demonstrated that any vitriol or excessive actions have come from Rowan. You’re just assuming it has and accusing him of something you’ve got no proof for. Apparently you didn’t get all of the message you are berating others to receive – don’t characterize others negatively without proof.

And having reviewed my posts, and his, I see that you pretty much ignored his name calling and his personal attacks on me and the author and claim no vitriol or excessive actions, well, I hope you know see the vitriol.

I do not attack individuals and their family members, I do not mock individuals and their family members, yet somehow this is acceptable by Rowan, and I am somehow judgemental on the issue or neglect my own ideas.

Rowan is a perfect example of the issue discussed here. He doesn’t seem able to have a discussion or make points WITHOUT personal attacks.

I am gay. I am living with AIDS. I AM a part of this community. I am married to a man. I have spent the last 20 years working for Marriage Equality. I have spent 15 years of my life doing volunteer work in the AIDS community. On the actual issue of labeling groups as Hate Groups, we are on the same page. And yet, because I think we should, and can be BETTER than our enemies, I am somehow a pariah.

I see you and others adamantly defending Rowan while ignoring the personal attacks, and that speaks volumes.

I’ll leave you with Rowan’s last words in his post to me and ask YOU to answer the question:

Why is my calling out tim or telling you to go fuck yourself hate speech?

Ahh, the irony. Yes, how is attacking Tim just as he predicted, and telling people to go fuck themselves because you disagree with their views on language, attacking my family members as pedophilic enablers considered Hate Speech. Well, I WONDER!