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	<title>Comments on: The states of marriage and the state of the marriage fight</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/11/07/50698</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/11/07/50698/comment-page-1#comment-175684</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 18:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=50698#comment-175684</guid>
		<description>I would also disagree with your analysis of the possibilities of change in Utah. While you&#039;re correct that the LDS leadership continues to have a tight grip on state politics, this could change in the next few years. The change would come from the rapidly changing demographics of the state, not from a change in LDS thinking. The recent election illustrates how this change will likely occur. 

In Tuesday&#039;s election, Obama received about 35% of the votes in Utah, but these were not spread evenly. If you subtract Salt Lake County votes, Romney garnered 81 percent to Barack Obama’s 16 percent. In Salt Lake County, Barack Obama got 39 percent compared to Mitt Romney’s 58 percent. But in the precincts comprising Salt Lake City (which has been gerrymandered and reduced to only about 10% of the County), Obama won. 

Not only did Obama win in Salt Lake City, voters in the valley elected a Democrat to represent them in the House. Scott Matheson will represent the citizens of a district that had been recently gerrymandered into what the LDS commission in charge of redistricting believed would be a Republican stronghold. They ran Mia Love, whose star power earned her a spot on the floor of the RNC in Tampa. It wasn&#039;t enough. 

They were wrong about the district and it cost them a member of their DC delegation. The odds of making similar errors in the future increase substantially as the state becomes less and less LDS and as Salt Lake County becomes increasingly Democratic. It&#039;s only a matter of time before they lose their iron grip on the state Capitol.

Oh, and Salt Lake City already recognizes same sex partnerships (in a manner similar to Colorado), as do a handful of communities along the Wasatch front, in Summit County and in places like Moab.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would also disagree with your analysis of the possibilities of change in Utah. While you&#8217;re correct that the LDS leadership continues to have a tight grip on state politics, this could change in the next few years. The change would come from the rapidly changing demographics of the state, not from a change in LDS thinking. The recent election illustrates how this change will likely occur. </p>
<p>In Tuesday&#8217;s election, Obama received about 35% of the votes in Utah, but these were not spread evenly. If you subtract Salt Lake County votes, Romney garnered 81 percent to Barack Obama’s 16 percent. In Salt Lake County, Barack Obama got 39 percent compared to Mitt Romney’s 58 percent. But in the precincts comprising Salt Lake City (which has been gerrymandered and reduced to only about 10% of the County), Obama won. </p>
<p>Not only did Obama win in Salt Lake City, voters in the valley elected a Democrat to represent them in the House. Scott Matheson will represent the citizens of a district that had been recently gerrymandered into what the LDS commission in charge of redistricting believed would be a Republican stronghold. They ran Mia Love, whose star power earned her a spot on the floor of the RNC in Tampa. It wasn&#8217;t enough. </p>
<p>They were wrong about the district and it cost them a member of their DC delegation. The odds of making similar errors in the future increase substantially as the state becomes less and less LDS and as Salt Lake County becomes increasingly Democratic. It&#8217;s only a matter of time before they lose their iron grip on the state Capitol.</p>
<p>Oh, and Salt Lake City already recognizes same sex partnerships (in a manner similar to Colorado), as do a handful of communities along the Wasatch front, in Summit County and in places like Moab.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/11/07/50698/comment-page-1#comment-175669</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 17:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=50698#comment-175669</guid>
		<description>Wyoming may see a civil unions bill in the next legislative session. Based on the last vote in 2011 and on Tuesday&#039;s recomposition of the Legislature, we believe that battle may well be successful. The Equality state may be the first in the Mountain West to grant legal status to same sex couples. In the region, only Wyoming and New Mexico have thus far avoided enshrining homophobia into the state constitution. 

I&#039;d also like to offer a correction: there isn&#039;t a &quot;legal argument&quot; that out of state marriages might be recognized in Wyoming, there is a clear legal precedent, specifically in the form of a Supreme Court decision instructing a local court to grant access to a same sex couple seeking a divorce. Wyoming&#039;s statute is quite clear: all marriages legal in the jurisdictions in which granted are legal and recognized in Wyoming. 

We&#039;ve received reports that the religious right will once again attempt to change the wording of the Wyoming statute once the Legislature convenes in January. We&#039;ve seen the draft of the bill and it makes clear that we&#039;re all on the same page about what the law says and means, and cites the recent Wyoming Supreme Court decision. If the law were unclear or the recognition granted to married couples from out of state merely theoretical, I don&#039;t believe we&#039;d be facing this battle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wyoming may see a civil unions bill in the next legislative session. Based on the last vote in 2011 and on Tuesday&#8217;s recomposition of the Legislature, we believe that battle may well be successful. The Equality state may be the first in the Mountain West to grant legal status to same sex couples. In the region, only Wyoming and New Mexico have thus far avoided enshrining homophobia into the state constitution. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d also like to offer a correction: there isn&#8217;t a &#8220;legal argument&#8221; that out of state marriages might be recognized in Wyoming, there is a clear legal precedent, specifically in the form of a Supreme Court decision instructing a local court to grant access to a same sex couple seeking a divorce. Wyoming&#8217;s statute is quite clear: all marriages legal in the jurisdictions in which granted are legal and recognized in Wyoming. </p>
<p>We&#8217;ve received reports that the religious right will once again attempt to change the wording of the Wyoming statute once the Legislature convenes in January. We&#8217;ve seen the draft of the bill and it makes clear that we&#8217;re all on the same page about what the law says and means, and cites the recent Wyoming Supreme Court decision. If the law were unclear or the recognition granted to married couples from out of state merely theoretical, I don&#8217;t believe we&#8217;d be facing this battle.</p>
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		<title>By: Boo</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/11/07/50698/comment-page-1#comment-175588</link>
		<dc:creator>Boo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 14:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=50698#comment-175588</guid>
		<description>Mormon theology can turn on a conveniently timed revelation, but acceptance of gay marriage would be a much bigger revision than accepting non-whites into the priesthood. In Mormon theology heterosexual marriage is not only required to attain the highest level of salvation, but, if I understand them correctly, to populate planets with people. I could be wrong but I don&#039;t look for that to happen any time soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mormon theology can turn on a conveniently timed revelation, but acceptance of gay marriage would be a much bigger revision than accepting non-whites into the priesthood. In Mormon theology heterosexual marriage is not only required to attain the highest level of salvation, but, if I understand them correctly, to populate planets with people. I could be wrong but I don&#8217;t look for that to happen any time soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/11/07/50698/comment-page-1#comment-175546</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 13:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=50698#comment-175546</guid>
		<description>According to the Washington Post: &quot;Colorado will have gay leaders in charge of both the House and the Senate in 2013, after winning the lower chamber Tuesday. Republicans defeated a civil unions bill in the state Senate this year; Democrats will have the power to pass it next year.&quot; 
http://www.denverpost.com/politics/ci_21953099/democratic-led-legislature-could-create-blues-gov-hickenlooper

As an aside, I think that is another milestone of this election:  Colorado will be the first state to have gay men leading both legislative chambers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to the Washington Post: &#8220;Colorado will have gay leaders in charge of both the House and the Senate in 2013, after winning the lower chamber Tuesday. Republicans defeated a civil unions bill in the state Senate this year; Democrats will have the power to pass it next year.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.denverpost.com/politics/ci_21953099/democratic-led-legislature-could-create-blues-gov-hickenlooper" rel="nofollow">http://www.denverpost.com/politics/ci_21953099/democratic-led-legislature-could-create-blues-gov-hickenlooper</a></p>
<p>As an aside, I think that is another milestone of this election:  Colorado will be the first state to have gay men leading both legislative chambers.</p>
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		<title>By: ZRAinSWVA</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/11/07/50698/comment-page-1#comment-175521</link>
		<dc:creator>ZRAinSWVA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 12:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=50698#comment-175521</guid>
		<description>Besides us achieving equal rights by popular vote--which I do think is the &lt;b&gt;best&lt;/b&gt; way they could be obtained--there&#039;s always legal challenge to state constitutional law. Virginia&#039;s amendment to its constitution, for example, is &lt;b&gt;so&lt;/b&gt; extreme (e.g., no recognition of SS relationships that even approximate the benefits of marriage; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall-Newman_Amendment) that I think it could be challenged. There&#039;s also potential for additional lawsuits to be filed regarding the lack of federal recognition of SSM--and some cases that were won recently are very promising!

I have to say that I did approach the ACLU, the HRC and others several years back--just after my husband I got married--but was told, &#039;not yet&#039;. I&#039;m getting older, though, and my patience is waning...

That being said, we did make great progress in the past days! And I am so happy for the families in those states who can now be officially recognized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Besides us achieving equal rights by popular vote&#8211;which I do think is the <b>best</b> way they could be obtained&#8211;there&#8217;s always legal challenge to state constitutional law. Virginia&#8217;s amendment to its constitution, for example, is <b>so</b> extreme (e.g., no recognition of SS relationships that even approximate the benefits of marriage; see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall-Newman_Amendment" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall-Newman_Amendment</a>) that I think it could be challenged. There&#8217;s also potential for additional lawsuits to be filed regarding the lack of federal recognition of SSM&#8211;and some cases that were won recently are very promising!</p>
<p>I have to say that I did approach the ACLU, the HRC and others several years back&#8211;just after my husband I got married&#8211;but was told, &#8216;not yet&#8217;. I&#8217;m getting older, though, and my patience is waning&#8230;</p>
<p>That being said, we did make great progress in the past days! And I am so happy for the families in those states who can now be officially recognized.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/11/07/50698/comment-page-1#comment-175497</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 11:45:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=50698#comment-175497</guid>
		<description>Just to add a note:  Although Illinois has civil unions, we&#039;re in the running for marriage equality in the next couple of years.  The state DOMA is being challenged, and the state has refused to defend it.  There are also marriage bills being introduced in the house and senate, with the full support of the governor.

No one here ever thought civil unions were the final step.

(Oh, and ballot referendums in Illinois are strictly advisory.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to add a note:  Although Illinois has civil unions, we&#8217;re in the running for marriage equality in the next couple of years.  The state DOMA is being challenged, and the state has refused to defend it.  There are also marriage bills being introduced in the house and senate, with the full support of the governor.</p>
<p>No one here ever thought civil unions were the final step.</p>
<p>(Oh, and ballot referendums in Illinois are strictly advisory.)</p>
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		<title>By: Ben in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/11/07/50698/comment-page-1#comment-175381</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 06:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=50698#comment-175381</guid>
		<description>. Should they not do so before, it is almost certain that after we have won victory in the popular vote in several states, the Supreme Court will discover that there is no asterisk in the Constitution that excludes gay people from the rights granted to citizens (they tend to delay civil justice until there is healthy support). &quot;

This is my belief why the Supreme Court decided to wait on the prop.8 case. They really wanted to see what would happen in the election. My guess, if they decide to hear it at all, will be 6-3, with the usual/ suspects dissenting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>. Should they not do so before, it is almost certain that after we have won victory in the popular vote in several states, the Supreme Court will discover that there is no asterisk in the Constitution that excludes gay people from the rights granted to citizens (they tend to delay civil justice until there is healthy support). &#8221;</p>
<p>This is my belief why the Supreme Court decided to wait on the prop.8 case. They really wanted to see what would happen in the election. My guess, if they decide to hear it at all, will be 6-3, with the usual/ suspects dissenting.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/11/07/50698/comment-page-1#comment-175324</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 04:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=50698#comment-175324</guid>
		<description>I think the Right&#039;s attempts at scare tactics will prove less and less effective as more and more states approve equality and straight Americans see that absolutely nothing has changed for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the Right&#8217;s attempts at scare tactics will prove less and less effective as more and more states approve equality and straight Americans see that absolutely nothing has changed for them.</p>
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		<title>By: cowboy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/11/07/50698/comment-page-1#comment-175312</link>
		<dc:creator>cowboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 03:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=50698#comment-175312</guid>
		<description>Mormon High Priests have said they would be amiable to something where gays can have all rights and privileges as long as their gay marriage isn’t &lt;i&gt;exactly&lt;/i&gt; like ‘marriage’.  

I have yet to have a Mormon sufficiently explain what would be the difference(s) between a gay civil marriage and a ceremony they perform in a standard LDS Wardhouse/Chapel or a Mormon Bishop performs in a outdoor wedding reception hall.   It has never been made clear except (if I can paraphrase from &lt;i&gt;South Pacific&lt;/i&gt;):  We ain’t got dames.   

It’s not like I am chaining myself to the East door of some Temple of theirs and demanding a ‘sealing’ in their precious Celestial Room.   The Temple is a whole other ball game. 

So, we can work on defining and determining what specifics we might need to wrestle (sternly-forcibly negotiate) with the upcoming 2013 Utah Legislature and maybe chip away at the hard-and-fast anti-gay marriage statute in the Utah Constitution...with LDS blessings. 

Speaking of South Pacific:  I think some Mormons need to listen to the lyrics to &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt; You Have Got to Be Carefully Taught&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;.  Though, I think, it goes right over their heads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mormon High Priests have said they would be amiable to something where gays can have all rights and privileges as long as their gay marriage isn’t <i>exactly</i> like ‘marriage’.  </p>
<p>I have yet to have a Mormon sufficiently explain what would be the difference(s) between a gay civil marriage and a ceremony they perform in a standard LDS Wardhouse/Chapel or a Mormon Bishop performs in a outdoor wedding reception hall.   It has never been made clear except (if I can paraphrase from <i>South Pacific</i>):  We ain’t got dames.   </p>
<p>It’s not like I am chaining myself to the East door of some Temple of theirs and demanding a ‘sealing’ in their precious Celestial Room.   The Temple is a whole other ball game. </p>
<p>So, we can work on defining and determining what specifics we might need to wrestle (sternly-forcibly negotiate) with the upcoming 2013 Utah Legislature and maybe chip away at the hard-and-fast anti-gay marriage statute in the Utah Constitution&#8230;with LDS blessings. </p>
<p>Speaking of South Pacific:  I think some Mormons need to listen to the lyrics to <i><b> You Have Got to Be Carefully Taught</b></i>.  Though, I think, it goes right over their heads.</p>
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		<title>By: F Young</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2012/11/07/50698/comment-page-1#comment-175281</link>
		<dc:creator>F Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 02:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=50698#comment-175281</guid>
		<description>You might want to consult these stats compiled by Nate Silver last year. 

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/29/the-future-of-same-sex-marriage-ballot-measures/

Among the states that do not already have marriage equality, he predicted that Rhode Island, Oregon, Hawaii, Alaska, Colorado, Nevada, New Jersey and Delaware would be the states least opposed to marriage equality, in that order.

Of these states, the only ones that do not have constitutional bans are Rhode Island, Hawaii, New Jersey and Delaware.

Utah is quite low on the list, and has a constitutional ban. There is quite a bit of popular opposition to marriage inequality. However, I agree that opinion there could change quickly based on direction from the Mormon Church. Mormons generally follow the directions of their church, unlike Catholics, who tend to do the opposite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might want to consult these stats compiled by Nate Silver last year. </p>
<p><a href="http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/29/the-future-of-same-sex-marriage-ballot-measures/" rel="nofollow">http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/29/the-future-of-same-sex-marriage-ballot-measures/</a></p>
<p>Among the states that do not already have marriage equality, he predicted that Rhode Island, Oregon, Hawaii, Alaska, Colorado, Nevada, New Jersey and Delaware would be the states least opposed to marriage equality, in that order.</p>
<p>Of these states, the only ones that do not have constitutional bans are Rhode Island, Hawaii, New Jersey and Delaware.</p>
<p>Utah is quite low on the list, and has a constitutional ban. There is quite a bit of popular opposition to marriage inequality. However, I agree that opinion there could change quickly based on direction from the Mormon Church. Mormons generally follow the directions of their church, unlike Catholics, who tend to do the opposite.</p>
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