Boo said =

What I think we really need is some sort of chart, incorporating both examples already noted here, as well as intersexed people, both those lucky enough to escape the surgeon’s knife and those not, post-phalloplasty FtMs whose results do not perfectly resemble those of non-reconstructed phalluses (perhaps some kind of sliding scale of acceptability could be used, with “ok in dim light” at one end and “EEEEEEEK” at the other), and whatever other variations an extensive internet search might happen to turn up. And of course it’s only fair to include post-vaginoplasty MtFs with less than ideal cosmetic results. After all, the regular police rely on a written body of law which everyone can be expected to learn and follow. The body police owe us no less consideration.

That’s assuming it’s actually a matter of body configuration and not simply the violation of gendered expectations per se that’s bugging you. Cause gay guys are all about upholding normative gender expectations, amiright?

what is the word I am looking for here?

The term is “cis-gendered”

I forget who said it and it is way up in the thread but somebody said that kids see each other naked all the time and something along the lines of disapproving of nudity is like teaching our children to be ashamed of their bodies.

No we do not teach our children to be ashamed of their bodies but we do most defenately teach them where their private parts are AND to keep that private. Around age 3 we no longer bath brothers and sisters in the same bath session.

IHMO Timothy has it right when he wrote,
“My concern is over who gets to decide what genitalia children are exposed to, their parents or someone else.”

Until a person’s genetalia matches their gender identity either MTF or FTM when undressing in an area that has children PRESENT, they should do so in an area that shields the children from viewing them. And if children walk in on them they should discretely get dressed real quick.

Now I don’t know anything about Koreans and the idea of multi generational nudity separated by gender, which seems very odd to me but if this is their custom so be it. If showers have children and adults of the same gender showering together (and again this seems wired to me but, whatever) then the transfersperson should not shower in the communal shower until their transition is complete.

I know I will get criticized but darn it all, I am a mother and I do not want my children exposed to seeing adult genetalia opposite to their sex. I do not approve of them seeing any adults naked of either sex for that matter, but for sure not naked of the opposite sex. And until their transition is complete, they still remain physically of their genetics of the opposite sex.

Now that is my opinion if children are involved, let’s move on to strictly an adult gym. I am a straight woman and if I found myself in a locker room sharing nudity with a MTF transfersperson who still had a penis, I hope I would be able to not show shock on my face as I would not want to hurt their feelings, and then I would accept their rightful place sharing locker room space.

Look all of us women in an +18 years old and up place we have ALL seen penises. A penis is not shocking or foreign to us. A woman with female mannerisms and dress is not going to rape me, she may end up to being my girlfriend.

With the exception of protecting children from being exposed to adult genetalia from a person not of their sex, all of us (what is the word I am looking for here?) all of us “right” gendered persons are going to have to suck it up and change. If we go to a place where we are publicly undressing and communally showing together with other ADULTS, we have to accept transpeople in our gender segregated locker rooms. It is US that needs to do the changing.

And please remember that I am not “protecting” my children being exposed to transpeople, I am protecting them from being exposed to genetalia, especially adult genetalia, of the opposit sex to my children. I myself would never expose my children to adult nudity even of their same gender, that just crosses my boundaries, but if the Koreans have this as part of their culture, well that is their business.

I think defending others from ad hominem attacks is one thing, but people should defend their own words, everyone here (with an exception or two) is pretty good at defending their words, and it clarifies the situation if they provide their own defense.

I say this because I see the reasoning behind Priya Lynn’s assertion of meaning as she read it, but I also see the exact words typed as ascribing the view to Timothy. Only Boo can clear this up.

Timothy said “Timothy said “No, that’s not my ‘reaction’. I did not say, imply, hint, or otherwise suggest this viewpoint.”

I said “I don’t think Boo was necessarily saying that was your reaction, I think it was more a matter of her suggesting your opposition to Levi in the shower was out of a desire to save others such as children from seeing something that was shocking because it was different.”.

Timothy said ““I don’t think Boo was necessarily saying that was your reaction…”
“Boo said ““The reaction of Timothy …”

Ahem.”.

You can take offense if you insist on doing so, but her words are consistent with meaning “The reaction of Timothy in thinking children shouldn’t have to see something that doesn’t fit, that they might think is icky…”. So, no, her words don’t unambiguously mean she was saying your personal reaction was “Ick that’s different!”.

When parents are in public they do not have an absolute right to decide what their children will or will not see. People have some freedom to behave as they want in public, what is a just balance is highly debatable.

And Timothy, you did specifically ask at least me where I would draw the line.

Yes, I’m smug at times. I don’t think obtuse fits however, since I agree with your position, not your reasoning. Our issues are different.

My posts to you have been because you are abusive to others in your anti-lesbian comments, dragging other negatives into it and just being a turd.

I demand that other people not use my words out of context or attribute your hateful screeds to me because that’s the standard I hold. And when I violate it, I get called on it. I’m holding people to the standard they hold me to, and the standard I hold myself to.

And thank you very much for your apology. I’m sorry too, that you are a turd.

Now, do go somewhere else, as you promised. Hopefully you can find a place where your anti-lesbian, nasty commenting self will feel accepted.

Re: your first line. You can use my words or the words of other if it actually supports your full intent, that is proper and no one has a problem with that. I think you understood what I was saying but don’t want to admit it.

Re: your second line, in general, yes, I agree that we ALL have a tendency to react based on our political affiliation, it is standard behavior for most human beings, and I also believe that in this particular discussion (subject matter, not this sites discussion) most (not all) republicans opose transgender rights in general. I also believe that the discussion on this page isn’t about supportting or not supportting transgender rights. I think almost everyone here agrees with the fact that transgender people should be treated equally to everyone else. What we are disagreeing on is basiclly a “when rights collide” issue. Whose rights trumps whose? Levi has a right to utilize the spa facilities. The parents have a right to decide how and when to expose their children to new ideas, based on their knowledge of the childs ability to understand or deal with a situation. Both have their rights but they collide. Hoe do we deal with respecting both sides?

My issue is mostly about that. As I repeatedly state, I think in an adult only gym, this issue is moot. Adults will just have to deal with the issues they have about it. BOTH sexes, men and women. But to insist that family oriented spaces, that market to that segment, have a right to decide how to deal with it. It is a membership club, and Levi was a guest of someone, and as such, should have inquired and followed spa procedures, and filed the complaint based on that if indeed it is worthy of a complaint. The issue is different than kissing or hand holding because it introduces exposed genitalia to the equation. This is more similar to the San Francisco Nudity Ban than it is to actual Trans rights, imo.

Rights and how to achieve them, and once achieved, how to deal with them in relation to others rights, is the issue at hand.