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	<title>Comments on: Inevitability, History, and the Moral Universe</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2013/02/10/53670</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2013/02/10/53670/comment-page-1#comment-251495</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2013 07:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=53670#comment-251495</guid>
		<description>&quot;The states that voted in November to redefine marriage did so with slim margins, none garnering more than 53 percent of the vote.&quot;

He can&#039;t even get the basic facts right.  R74 in Washington passed with 53.7% of the vote, when all the votes were finally tallied by the end of November.  He probably just lazily grabbed the numbers that were reported on election night.

Also, in MN, if you count the blank ballots as no votes, as MN law requires, more than 53% of the vote came down on our side.  It is also worth noting that the judicial retention election in IA served as a proxy vote on marriage and more than 53% voted to retain.  BTW, our side was outspent in IA, so money was not the issue.

These margins are comparable to, or better, than their margin of victory in CA, ME, AZ, and SD.

Also, a lot of the really big wins that they racked up in 1998-2006 were uncontested elections.  Something like 2/3 of these contests involved no serious campaign.  In those early days, our side knew that we would likely lose and there was little incentive to put in a lot of time and money in order to improve our margin of defeat by 5 or 10 points.  I don&#039;t see why a string of uncontested elections from 8-10 years ago has more legitimacy than intensively contested elections from 4 months ago.

It will be interesting to see what happens in OR in 2014.  OR passed its amendment in 2004 with 56.5% and an election on the same issue in the same state exactly 10 years later will be a great way to frame and understand the change in the public&#039;s view of this issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The states that voted in November to redefine marriage did so with slim margins, none garnering more than 53 percent of the vote.&#8221;</p>
<p>He can&#8217;t even get the basic facts right.  R74 in Washington passed with 53.7% of the vote, when all the votes were finally tallied by the end of November.  He probably just lazily grabbed the numbers that were reported on election night.</p>
<p>Also, in MN, if you count the blank ballots as no votes, as MN law requires, more than 53% of the vote came down on our side.  It is also worth noting that the judicial retention election in IA served as a proxy vote on marriage and more than 53% voted to retain.  BTW, our side was outspent in IA, so money was not the issue.</p>
<p>These margins are comparable to, or better, than their margin of victory in CA, ME, AZ, and SD.</p>
<p>Also, a lot of the really big wins that they racked up in 1998-2006 were uncontested elections.  Something like 2/3 of these contests involved no serious campaign.  In those early days, our side knew that we would likely lose and there was little incentive to put in a lot of time and money in order to improve our margin of defeat by 5 or 10 points.  I don&#8217;t see why a string of uncontested elections from 8-10 years ago has more legitimacy than intensively contested elections from 4 months ago.</p>
<p>It will be interesting to see what happens in OR in 2014.  OR passed its amendment in 2004 with 56.5% and an election on the same issue in the same state exactly 10 years later will be a great way to frame and understand the change in the public&#8217;s view of this issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Markanthonydog</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2013/02/10/53670/comment-page-1#comment-251039</link>
		<dc:creator>Markanthonydog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2013 14:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=53670#comment-251039</guid>
		<description>Great post once again.   I think Vogt is on soild ground for trying to refute the argument.   I hear/read some variation of &quot;don&#039;t be on the wrong side of history&quot; pretty often.     Although yes, it does get to the heart of the issue.     

Odd how often the religious raises the legislature issue.    As if elected officials are somehow illegitimate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post once again.   I think Vogt is on soild ground for trying to refute the argument.   I hear/read some variation of &#8220;don&#8217;t be on the wrong side of history&#8221; pretty often.     Although yes, it does get to the heart of the issue.     </p>
<p>Odd how often the religious raises the legislature issue.    As if elected officials are somehow illegitimate.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2013/02/10/53670/comment-page-1#comment-250926</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2013 01:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=53670#comment-250926</guid>
		<description>Same-sex marriage is inevitable because marriage developed through a tradition of same-sex illegality. We couldn&#039;t marry because even a relationship was illegal, not because of any overt declaration that marriage had to be one man, one woman. 

Same-sex marriage is toward the end of our journey from illegality to equality. Inability to marry is a legacy of illegality. It has to pass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Same-sex marriage is inevitable because marriage developed through a tradition of same-sex illegality. We couldn&#8217;t marry because even a relationship was illegal, not because of any overt declaration that marriage had to be one man, one woman. </p>
<p>Same-sex marriage is toward the end of our journey from illegality to equality. Inability to marry is a legacy of illegality. It has to pass.</p>
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		<title>By: MattNYC</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2013/02/10/53670/comment-page-1#comment-250921</link>
		<dc:creator>MattNYC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2013 01:24:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=53670#comment-250921</guid>
		<description>Rob--excellent as always.  My two cents:

&quot;...none arrived there through a vote by the people.&quot;

Of course he implies that people&#039;s civil rights SHOULD be put to a popular vote.  We know how that would have worked for African Americans in the 1960s.  I think it took 30 years for the last state to repeal their actual anti-miscegenation laws (post-Loving v. Virgina) and polls showed that--in several states--a repeal would have been MASSIVELY defeated if left to the popular vote. 

&quot;Overall, Americans remain strongly in favor of traditional marriage.&quot;

Heck--count me as one.  I am ALSO for Marriage Equality.  His labels don&#039;t quite work and I&#039;d be extremely interested to see the wording in the polls--assuming they didn&#039;t just come from his rectum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob&#8211;excellent as always.  My two cents:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;none arrived there through a vote by the people.&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course he implies that people&#8217;s civil rights SHOULD be put to a popular vote.  We know how that would have worked for African Americans in the 1960s.  I think it took 30 years for the last state to repeal their actual anti-miscegenation laws (post-Loving v. Virgina) and polls showed that&#8211;in several states&#8211;a repeal would have been MASSIVELY defeated if left to the popular vote. </p>
<p>&#8220;Overall, Americans remain strongly in favor of traditional marriage.&#8221;</p>
<p>Heck&#8211;count me as one.  I am ALSO for Marriage Equality.  His labels don&#8217;t quite work and I&#8217;d be extremely interested to see the wording in the polls&#8211;assuming they didn&#8217;t just come from his rectum.</p>
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		<title>By: Stefan</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2013/02/10/53670/comment-page-1#comment-250895</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2013 22:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=53670#comment-250895</guid>
		<description>Great post Rob!

In regards to the other side being outspent, love how they&#039;re suddenly complaining about this. We&#039;ve always outspent them, and now they&#039;re saying it&#039;s why they lost?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post Rob!</p>
<p>In regards to the other side being outspent, love how they&#8217;re suddenly complaining about this. We&#8217;ve always outspent them, and now they&#8217;re saying it&#8217;s why they lost?</p>
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