Box Turtle Bulletin

What’s interesting is that the people “found this to be inconsistent their own personal faith discovery.” Excuse me while I wretch.

This is, again, just another attempt to change religion. I guess that is what you do when you discover your world-view is wrong. The mere fact that we have so many denominations, sects, cults, and conflicting theological positions ought to be a hint that we humans just make it up as we go along.

I guess that means God, or more likely Satan, is trying to trick those who oppose homosexuality.

Someone has to be wrong. Either gays are sinning, not sinning, or there is no such thing as sin and god. To willfully sin and refuse to repent seems like a pretty serious problem if you turn out to be wrong. It’s not like you weren’t warned. Someone is going to hell if there really is a christian god. Either the anti-gay crowd is sinning the sin of hate or the pro-gay crowd are unrepentent sinners. (It goes without saying that non-christians are going to hell.)

Or none of it matters because there is no god, no sin, and no eternal life. GASP!

Personally, I see no point in continuously whacking the hornets nest of religious fanaticism. Don’t come crying to me when you get stung.

Meanwhile, the backlash will fall on those least able to handle it.

Robin Zaleski

The church, any church, has no obligation to accept those who live in opposition to their beliefs, values and standards.
The church requires all of its members to renounce a sinful lifestyle whether that be centered in pleasure, or malice.
All of us have natures that are in opposition to God’s kingdom. We are asked to renounce these, deny self, and grow into a kindred spirit with Jesus Christ.
The person that demands entrance into the kingdom while satisfying the whims of self and worldly pleasure is living for self and does not know God.

Jeff

It is interesting that the SDA Church is taking this position. They sued to stop SDA Kinship, a gay Adventist group, from using “SDA” in their name. In the end, SDA Kinship prevailed since they had registered the name in California prior to the SDA Church itself! It will be interesting to see how this is resolved.

Stephen

See the SDA Kinship website for additional information regarding this matter, as well as information regarding the SDA Church’s unsuccessful attempt to make SDA Kinship change its name. The link is here: http://www.sdakinship.org/en/newsnotes2010/filmfaceslegalchallenge.html

Jeff

June 26th, 2010

It does make fun of the SDA trademark name. If it is a genuine attempt to communicate a message to SDA’s then just change the film title so the SDA trademark name is not distorted.

Shubee

June 30th, 2010

“Do they believe that God calls them to bully the weak, to threaten the outsider, and to expel those who are different?”

Yes they do. http://everythingimportant.org/dupery

David

July 11th, 2010

>If it is a genuine attempt to communicate a message to SDAâ€™s then just change the film title so the SDA trademark name is not distorted.

That would require the use of logic. Which you abandon if you listen to Shubee.

Vedvick

My, my! Here we go again. “Bully”, “Gay haters”. When ever somebody’s “darling” sin is threatened with God’s direction it immediately turns to name-calling, lashing out and worst of all “labeling”. An age-old tactic to silence the voice. In the Bible they just attacked and murdered those who dared speak up, let the streets run with blood and went on to live in peace, consoling each other on the road to hell how “mean and nasty those God-fearing people were”.

Maybe these brave souls that speak up just prize what God says over sinful practices spelled out clearly in the Bible. Or do you want to rewrite the Bible and retain the right to still call it “The Holy Bible”? I’m sure you could get a court to agree with you. The fact is you’re wrong, God’s right and your “war” (that is what it is) is not against the SDA church but the God who pronounced your lifestyle a sin.

Emily K

Hey Vedvick, come back when you have rational thinking on your side instead of superstition and a blind leap of faith that what you believe really is the truth above all else.

Til i see conclusive, scientific proof that being gay equals destruction of mankind, I and several others here will simply laugh at your courageous attempt to convert people on the internet.

Timothy Kincaid

Well, Emily, Vedvick has quotation marks on their side. And self-rightousness, and arrogance, and condecention. Why would Vedvick need rational thinking?

John in the Bay Area

This ongoing theme of bigots objecting to being called bigots.

If they don’t wish to be called bigots, they should stop practicing bigotry and discrimination. That would be far more effective than trying to silence their victims.

Vedvick

HA! I expected EXACTLY this reaction. This whole thread showed it was coming. I’m not trying to convert anybody on this forum. Not my job. Just telling it like it is folks; just telling it like it is. Just putting a stick in the ant pile and watching the frenzy. If it wasn’t all true, you’d be laughing. Emily….a little testy, aren’t we? Really struck a nerve there didn’t I. A xanax may help. HEY….guess what? NO QUOTES!

Priya Lynn

Your god is imaginary Vedvick so you aren’t telling it like it is. Your imaginary god has done nothing to wage war on gays – its entirely people like you doing so.

Vedvick

No, no, no….I’m not waging war; honestly…..no war. BUT this does bring up a very valid question. I seriously want to know.

WHY are gay men soooo much fun to be around and keep me in stitches with laughter and lesbians are SOOOOOOO militant and humorless? Honestly, I have heard this questione posed at every job I’ve ever held. EVERYBODY loves a gay guy and EVERYBODY detests a lesbian. They hate socializing with them; they hate dealing with them and can’t stand to talk (or rather listen to) them. C’mon guys……admit it. Given a choice, whose company do enjoy more,that of a lesbian or a straight gal? I’m really curious so don’t read malice into this. I’ve never seen a gay male befriend a lesbian—not that it hasn’t happened……just sayin’.

Priya—maybe Emily can share some of her Xanax with you. Knocks the edge off and just kind of mellows you out. HEY! No quotes again….I’m getting better.

Priya Lynn

You need help Vedvick – grow up.

Timothy Kincaid

I’ll be deleting future comments that do not deal with the topic.

Ben in Atlanta

I actually live in Decatur. I’m not seeing the misandry and the misogyny that you seem to imagine. We work and socialize together. And sometimes babysit. Sometimes our cookouts span several yards. We also don’t leave our straight neighbors out. There is also a pretty good mix of ladies and gentlemen in our booth at Pride every year although we’re not SDA. (and they’re not all LGBTQ)

Sorry for the OT, Tim. Delete at will.

paul

July 24th, 2010

it is kinda immature that people would make a film with that as the name. i mean, its just their church for crying sake. what if someone make something like “later-gay-saints” or something like that i mean? its just Kid’ish im sayin thats all… whatever.. but i would never go to see a movie called a church name + gay, i mean that is so gay.

Courtney

August 13th, 2010

As a lesbian and a believer in God, Vedvick I am more offended by your generalization of the gay community than by your opinions of gay persons. I can respect that you hold the words you interpret of the Bible so dear. What I can’t and won’t respect is that you so confidently admit and suggest that because perhaps you’ve met one lesbian you ‘detested’ that we all should be detested too. Do you know how many catty and hypocritical straight women I’ve met?

We are all human and deserve to be evaluated on our own character and merit without being subjected to your immature generalization of something I don’t believe you really understand.

September 10th, 2010

I know it is the most difficult thing for all of us to face issues in our lives that we would rather not, no matter what walk of life we are each in as individuals and I don’t subscribe to Vedvick’s behavior or manner of expressing views as it does not seem to be done in love and respect as much as it could be. But let us be clear that if we profess to be CHRISTIANS, God’s Word is VERY clear on this issue:

2 Timothy 3:16
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

If we by faith believe this from the apostle Paul to be so, than we MUST accept the following ALSO:

Romans 1:18-27
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;…. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. … 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

1 Cor. 6:9-11
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal. 5:19-21 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But there is hope in Jesus!:

1 Cor. 10:11-13 11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

Timothy Kincaid

September 11th, 2010

Actually, Al, (and it may come as an amazing surprise to you) but there isn’t a single reader here who has not already had those selected verses thrown at them. And though you may be of good will, you are far less informed than virtually every person who reads what you wrote.

The problem is that Paul did not write those verses a decade ago in modern American English. In fact, he didn’t even use Greek for the part that you think is relevant. Instead, Paul made up a word – one that no one else was using at the time and one which has only recently been translated as “homosexual” by those who want it the mean that.

The truth is that no one really knows what Paul was saying. We would have to take culture, context, and language into account including looking at the purpose of the epistle and the daily lives of the recipients.

Further you can’t just pick out a scripture or two without reading those around it. If you read further, you’ll find that Paul was speaking of idolatry. You can’t just say, “oh, but this applies to you instead.”

I wish you well and pray that you will spend some time in true study before you rush off to quote selected scriptures in the future.

Al Mattey

Timothy,

It actually DOESN’T come as no surprise, but because there was much talk and personal opinion, I thought it best to bring God’s Word back to the forefront. I think you should limit your condescension and assumptions in the future–for all you know, I could easily be a more ardent student of scripture and far longer walked with Christ than you , but that’s not relevant.

More than you may realize, I do understand this dilemma, as it’s in our sinful nature to willfully disobey God. King David was an obvious example. You remember Psalm 51? It took God speaking through the prophet Nathan by way of a parable for him to become convicted of his sin in fornicating with Bathsheba and having her husband murdered! All of us at some point in our lives have encountered the Holy Spirit convicting us of wrong as we often ignore the truth. And that is the real problem.
You accused me of picking out “a scripture or two without reading those around it.” Actually, I selected several and did not choose them rashly or by happenstance, nor were they taken out of context (isolating one passage yourself to “strengthen” your argument was akin to the very thing you accused me of doing). But let’s say, for a moment, that you are correct about the misinterpretation and that in 1 Cor. 6:9-11 we truly don’t understand what Paul really meant. Please share with me, then, the mistranslation/misinterpretation (in word or context) in the following passage of Romans chapter 1 that I quoted: “26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.” This is irrefutably speaking about homosexuality, something prevalent in Rome during Paul’s time no doubt descended from Greece culture. But obviously we know that historically it goes back to the beginning:
Gen 19:1-7 “Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground… Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, â€œWhere are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.â€ So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, and said, â€œPlease, my brethren, do not do so wickedly!”

I’m interested in your interpretation of these texts. I believe the Bible is quite clear on the matter. However, be that as it may, let me position this differently: Could you please show me scriptural evidence that supports the homosexual lifestyle?

Contrary to your opinion, I’m not “rushing off” quoting scripture. I admire conviction, but am saddened that it is being misplaced and that you are misleading others with false doctrine. My hope and prayer is that the Holy Spirit will convict you in faithful obedience relying in His words and promises like the one found in 1 Cor. 10:13.

Timothy Kincaid

I thought it best to bring Godâ€™s Word back to the forefront.

But you didn’t bring God’s Word back to the forefront. Instead you brought a few selected scriptures re-translated in the past few decades to read “homosexual” and pretended that it was either clear or determinant.

I selected several and did not choose them rashly or by happenstance,

Of course not. This collection of scriptures is called The Clobber Passages; it’s the same narrow selection always used. You can go to any anti-gay website and cut and paste.

Please share with me, then, the mistranslation/misinterpretation (in word or context) in the following passage of Romans chapter 1…

Well, to start with we need to look a few scripture before.

Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over…

This entire passage of scripture relates to idolatry and temple prostitution. Unless you are going to argue that gay people became gay due to worship of images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals, then you are clearly misunderstanding what Paul was saying.

Many liberal scholars see this scripture as clear: it relates to people who abandoned their natural desire for the opposite sex (heterosexuals). This was not uncommon in the pagan worship in Rome during Paul’s time; read up on the Cybele Cult.

Further, some see it as a warning against doing the same, i.e. abandoning the natural sexuality that God gave them and seeking to live heterosexually, contrary to God’s intent.

As for the Sodom story, many if not most scholars have long since abandoned the idea that this had anything to do with homosexuality. To do so requires a very peculiar understanding of human sexuality and an ardent desire to ignore Scripture. As Jesus himself suggested, the “sins of Sodom” were related to inhospitality, arrogance, and abuse of the poor and powerless. (Ezekiel, Matthew, Luke, Peter, etc.)

Al, the reason that you think that the Bible “is quite clear on the matter” is because you have always been taught that this is what it means. The Scripture is seldom “quite clear” on any matter. You have to take context, language, culture, intent and the overall message of Scripture into consideration.

We currently know (and this is not a matter of debate) that some people are inherently same-sex attracted. These attractions are virtually immutable (according to a seven year study funded by an ex-gay group wanting to prove that they could change).

So either God is cruel, capricious, and arbitrary or else He has no insistence that gay people not be gay people.

But we don’t really need to wonder. We can instead look at Scripture.

Another word that is misunderstood and mistranslated is the word “eunuch”. While this word did include castrati, in ancient times it also included other sexual minorities such as those who had no sexual desire for women. A better translation might be “queer”.

And yet Jesus himself – in his discussions about marriage – took time to include eunuchs in his message (but warned that many would not be able to accept this). And the very first convert to Christianity was a eunuch from Ethiopia.

You see, Al, there’s a lot more to the subject that you’ve been exposed to. So while you are here to be “saddened” and hoping the Holy Spirit will convict me to agree with you, you are starting from a disadvantage.

Tommy

Generally speaking, Al, it is best to avoid claiming you aren’t taking things out of context while starting your quotation with “For this cause.” Unless you are including the cause, then you are, unambiguously, taking the latter part out of context.

Richard Rush

Al, help me out here. Why should I want to accept the Christian holy book as true, rather than the holy books of any of the other world’s religions? On what basis can it be determined that your holy book contains the true story?

One fact is that the overwhelming majority of people adhere to the religion of their parents and/or the culture they are born into. That’s not a very good reason to accept a religion as true, is it? The overwhelming majority reject all the other religions with nary a moment’s thought, but how can they legitimately do that without some in-depth investigation?

While I can understand studying the Bible out of some historical or literary interest, it has no more influence on how I live my life than the Egyptian Book of the Dead or The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.

So, unless you can induce an epiphany within me, I’m probably a lost cause.

adventist academite

October 26th, 2010

Gay Adventists are like Black Skinheads, one opposes the other.

jeremiah

November 9th, 2010

Yeah I am glad the church’s are finally standing up for themselves. There always comes a time where enough is enough and if you decide you want to be with the lord you will change your ways and be the way God wants you to be. This is the way Jesus Christ lived his life and that is what these gay people need to do

Timothy Kincaid

November 9th, 2010

jeremiah,

If you think that Jesus Christ lived his life threatening lawsuits against those who criticized him then you clearly have never read the gospels.

John in the Bay Area

November 9th, 2010

Churches have been standing up for themselves since the very beginning. That is why so much human blood has been shed and so many humans have suffered through horrendous punishments throughout our history as a species all in the name of religion.

Bobby

November 25th, 2010

Here’s a novel idea, think of another name. Stop clinging to the past and to people who obviously want nothing to do with you.

You don’t go to a party where you’re not invited, so why would you attend a church where the majority of people don’t want you.

My partner was raised SDA and honestly, the way they teach seems to me, IMHO, is so similar to brainwashing it just isn’t funny.

Stop looking for approval, you’re the only person who can approve of yourself and your opinion is the only one that counts.

Rose

February 28th, 2012

I was also born & raised SDA, went to SDA schools and attended mostly SDA events and functions until I was a young adult. I’m a 50-something woman with a family of my own and have no problems with people’s life choices as long as they aren’t criminal. I have just learned about this new documentary “Seventh-Gay Adventists” I just watched the trailor, read a few articles and now have read the above posts. I’m questioning what your’e trying to achieve with this documentary?? SDA’s have very strict beliefs as all of us raised in the Church know. Why are you trying to change it? Why not create your own “Church”? It doesn’t matter how much info is given, most SDA’s will never approve of the Gay/Lesbian lifestyles. It’s like forcing a square peg into a round hole. I don’t understand why the push to be excepted into a Church where they clearly don’t want to accept you. I can speak for myself in that I always felt like an outsider in the SDA church and lifestyle from a very very young age, even though half my family are strong participants and believers. And so I’m wondering why are so many Gay/Lesbians fighting for the SDA’s to accept their lifestyle, when they will never feel comfortable in the church. I personally wouldn’t want to go and push to be admitted somewhere I am not accepted. You are who you are, be happy and accepting of yourselves. Surround yourselves with like minded people and Rejoice! God loves every single one of us. He’s our creator, without him we wouldn’t be here. It’s not the Church you belong to that saves you. It’s your relationship with God Almighty. Love and be loved! I feel a lot of hatred in the above comments. This really shouldn’t be about forcing the SDA’s to accept Gay/Lesbians, but rather accept and love the people, all of them and drop the labels. I don’t believe we need so many titles and labels because in the end we are just “human” and I believe in “Humans Rights” and God should come first…. but I can confirm that unless you were raised SDA, or been in the SDA community for any length of time, it is almost like a cult following that teaches they are “THE” only church. However I believe the real Church is the accepting church that encourages the members to have a closer individual walk with Christ! Less judging and guilt!

Timothy Kincaid

February 28th, 2012

Rose,

I appreciate your comments and perspective. And, as you advise, some gay SDA do leave, and I have no fault for that.

But some feel at home there and love the people in their church and don’t want to be banished.

I choose to support their struggle as well.

Wayne Blakely

I was basically born gay. My testimony would detail circumstances leading up to my birth as well as incidents postnatally.

But as every human, I was born with a sinful nature. No one arrives without stain of sin and the power of choice to seek to do God’s will or follow self and the deceptive feelings that Satan seeks to inflict upon us.

For nearly 40 years I lived according to my feelings in the gay community. And then one day… I allowed the Holy Spirit to enter my life and question my life motives and direction.

The real “church” is not a social club to belong to. It’s not about seeking to impose what feels natural on the denomination and impress them to change or re write God’s Word. Church is where those who believe in God and are seeking to be more like Him are to gather and learn, pray and support one another by lifting each other and their burdens to Christ.

God won my heart and in a mirror showed me that what I had been doing all my life was seeking God’s approval of my departure from His instruction. No.. not to be straight… but to be drawn to holiness… not my gay feelings which are Satan’s counterfeit to God’s original and perfect plan.

For a hundred and fifty years, the church has not understood how to help those with same-sex attraction. Yet it is no different than learning to help any sinner. The same would go for adultry, gossip, drug addiction, alcoholism.

The “church” is begining to wake up and learn… while we as having suffered need also to be forgiving of the long span of ignorance.

No where in God’s word does He provide guidance for a sexual same-sex relationship. In fact He is very clear with quite the opposite. While we may not be called to marry, we are called to put Jesus first in our life… not self.

The God I love and serve, loves every soul on this earth equally. He so very much wants all of you including what comes natural that you cling to. Sin is natural. Sacrifice and submission is unnatural. It can only be done by dying to self, submitting your life to Christ and abiding in Him and His Word.

My heart breaks for those who have made their sex life and their love of self… thier God.

If we surrender completely to Jesus, He will lead and guide us. Satan will seek to do as He did to Eve and have us believe that God is unfair and fill us with doubt.

When we are full of self.. pride… and desire… we will often seek to find credence and re-write God’s Word to support our own truths.

Physiology alone speaks volumes about what God did not intend.

I pray daily for those who have participated in this film and others who the enemy seeks to devour and deceive.

I pray that softened hearts can still be led, convicted and won by the Holy Spirit. Lucifer kept trying to convince God that He knew better … and had better ideas. Our most fair and divine Father will answer every prayer who seeks to do His will, but will never again allow His authority to come under attack.

The test on earth is to see if we will trust and obey. We won’t even have sexual issues as we know them today in the new earth, as we will be like the angels.

It is interesting to note why Satan has such a hay day with sexual issues in humans… as he himself never experienced what we can expereince. He therefore seeks to distort it and an amazing array of unintended purpose.

Continued prayers,love and hope for those who are being led by their feelings.

Richard Rush

Wayne, I noticed from your website that you seek to attract money based on your evidence-free beliefs. Sadly, you probably will, because the evidence seems to indicate that “there’s a sucker born every minute.” (quote usually misattributed to P.T. Barnum)

Priya Lynn

Wayne, it saddens me that you have made yourself a slave to an imaginary being created by bronze age bigots.

When you claim gays have made their sex life and their love of self their god it shows the hate and dishonesty in your heart. Such a demeaning characterization of people is a great departure from the truth – gay people love as heterosexual people do and their romantic lives can’t be honestly described as being all about sex and self love. Gays and lesbians in romantic relationships put the happiness of someone else first, it is a loving and noble act of selflessness.

Gayness is harmless and as such is perfectly moral. It is your act of hate, attempting to deprive people of romantic love and force them to live lonely lives of despair and self-loathing that its grotesquely immoral.

Timothy Kincaid

Wayne,

The words you speak are familiar. Many a sermon sounds the same. But they are based neither in Scripture nor in any understanding of God.

In fact, your theology necessitates NOT knowing God. It’s a blind craven faith that sees God only as a demanding Master that is so cruel that to question Him would invoke his rage.

What a sad faith and sad fate. Like Gollam hissing ‘my precious’ you cringe through life clinging to a silent and unyielding deity, fearful to ever know the Father lest your Bronze Age idol throw you into eternal flames.

Wayne Blakely

The Word of God says that He is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow. The responses made do not come from God’s Word, but from the elevation of self. This is what the whole point is.

God asks for our total commitment to Him.. not to self. Any real love is pure and comes from God. But if we don’t apply love in the ordained ways that God has instructed us, we will certainly have to answer to Him.

Oddly you refer to Gollam… rather than the inspired Word. This again is making the point that self will look outside of God’s Word, instead of to His Word for what it is that He asks of us.

It takes money to support any ministry. It took thousands of dollars of donations to support the making of a film.

If you speak to any ER doctor, GI doctor or Internal Medicine doctor, they will likely tell you that this is certainly not a natural love.

The questions I asked about our loving God instructing us in a same-sex sexual relationship remain unanswered. Trusting and believing in God and seeking His will instead of ours requires an interest and openness to truth.

I understand your feelings and even your anger. I have been where you are. It is only with a humbling of self before God and seeking His Word to find His will in our lives that we can begin our journey with Him.

If you don’t believe or want to believe… then why would you want to belong to a church of God’s as though it is just a social association? If you want to live the way you live instead of how God instructs.. why involve or disgrace God?

It doesn’t make any sense. My prayers continue for those whose heart can be reached by His love, mercy and forgiveness. I praise God that He waited for me and proved Himself to me as He continues to day after day in my walk with Him.

God bless and encourage each of you.

Wayne

Jim Burroway

If you speak to any ER doctor, GI doctor or Internal Medicine doctor, they will likely tell you that this is certainly not a natural love.

I was in to see my doctor for an annual checkup just last Friday. He certainly didn’t have any qualms about my being gay and having a partner.

Priya Lynn

Wayne, if you were a good person you’d stop seeking to do harm to innocent people.

Wayne Blakely

The message of Jesus who I try to represent, is always one of love. Not one of us is innocent and He offers life to all who will love and obey Him.

Again… much of “His Love” to those who also seek to know Him.

The best any of us can do is point to Jesus. There is no good in us that is not from Him.

“I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.” Romans 7:18

Priya Lynn

Gayness harms no one and is therefore not a wrongdoing and gay people are in that context entirely innocent. The Jesus you worship eternally tortures people for innocently believing other religions or no religion at all which are also harmless acts. Your Jesus is not one of love, he is anything but.

You have much you need to repent for. Stop demonizing innocent people and trying to deprive them of romantic love.

Timothy Kincaid

Wayne,

You say that you point to Jesus, but I don’t see it. You quote a lot of Christians, but I don’t see you quoting any Christ.

I suspect that – like a good many today who claim his name – Jesus is really a bit of an embarrassment and inconvenience. You’re glad to claim what you call his sacrifice but you sure don’t want anything to do with what he taught.

The crucified and ascended Jesus is great, he finally quit saying things that you don’t believe. The living, walking around and preaching Jesus, not so much.

Richard Rush

Wayne, given the fact that there are a multitude of religions in the world which all claim to be THE correct one, what is the compelling reason for anyone to choose yours?

On what basis did YOU choose? Was it the one into which you were indoctrinated, beginning in childhood? Did you choose a more authoritarian version of your childhood religion because you function best under authoritarian domination with strict rules? Did you choose the one that validated your self-loathing due to being gay? During your 40 gay years, did you conduct an exhaustive comparative study of all the world’s religions before finally making your choice? Was it a religion that somehow rang true when you were told that its deity loves you, but that you were born a stinking piece of crap? I’d really like to know, because I’m fascinated by how people make their religion choices.

Palmer

Timothy, it’s Gollum, not Gollam.

Timothy Kincaid

Richard,

That’s a good question. Especially to those who are absolutely convinced that their way is the right way and everyone else is gunna BURN!!!

For me, yeah it was the way I was raised. I take the known and familiar path to knowing the divine.

But it’s also a bit like driving to the market; I go the comfortable way but I’m not too hung up on denouncing someone else’s favorite path or insisting that my traffic cop is going to throw them in jail for not going down Straight St. and turning right on Church Blvd. And I make no pretense that I know what will be on the shelves when I get there.

While I am a Christian (or what used to be called “Christian” before the Abuse Your Neighbor crowd co-opted the term), it’s because I believe in what Jesus taught and in the wisdom of much of the Jewish teachings that preceded him. But other religious leaders and even some secular philosophers has some similar teaching so I could see myself in another country holding pretty similar views to what I hold now.

Which isn’t to say that all religions are of equal value. Those that advocate for evil (those which practiced human sacrifice) are not the same as those which teach (and actually practice) that one ought to take care of the less fortunate. A religion that respects and encourages observation, thought, analysis and education is preferable to one that demands adherence to tradition and orthodoxy.

By that standard, I would find some versions of Islam preferable to some Christian denominations. I might, I suppose, find a literalist and dogmatic form of Buddhism (if there is such a thing) as being inferior to a very progressive Mormonism (if that, too, exists).

And, in the end, it may all be a bunch of mystical hocus-pocus that I’ve deluded myself into believing. But even so, for me there is value in the path that makes it worth it, even if at the end of the road there’s a giant faded and peeling “Future Home of Eternity” sign and nothing else.

Timothy Kincaid