Box Turtle Bulletin

too bad you were being facetious – I want one of those T-shirts. Here in Sweden, it would just generate a lot of chuckles rather than the death threats it would generate back in the States

enough already

How many more children must die to satisfy the hatred of the christianists?

America desperately needs ENDA and the ACLU needs to stop spending so much time and energy defending our enemies and put more emphasis on the violations of human and civil rights the LGBT community suffers.

MIhangel apYrs

These people are corrupting the young: teaching straight kids that god approves of them (and giving them a pass on hatred and its consequences), and trying to pervert “queer” kids into changing themselves.

The degree of underlying hatred is astonishing

justsearching

“While Exodus found empathy for bullied kids, Focus identifies with the bullies.”

I’m not a big fan of Alan Chambers, but at least he seems to actually have a remnant of a conscience left. Focus, though… not so much. I had some hopes that once Dobson was more out of the picture, there might be some change in direction on this issue, but this doesn’t yet seem to be the case.

IamPosterity

I have always wondered if these groups have even read the more accurate translations of the bible? It speaks against temple sex worship and/or prostitution….yes homosexual acts occured but more commonly it was perpetuated by the hetero culture of the day.

Besides was it not Jesus that spoke out against persecution and blame to bring a message of love and acceptance?

Christians WTF are they doing?

Patrick

“It is highly doubtful that respect for differing viewpoints will be the theme of the Day of Dialogue â€“ Focus doesnâ€™t â€œdiologueâ€ that way.”

I would say this applies to conservative Christianity in general. Experience has shown me that they have no problem demanding equal time in public settings in the name of “dialogue” or “equal time” when the topic is homosexuality (or evolution). However, they will not allow “dialogue” or “equal time” in their houses of worship for those who do not share their understanding of homosexuality (or evolution).

Spartann

to Andrew….

Given your example, that of not telling students what to do, then the 5 students attending Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, California, who chose to wear Tshirts sporting the American flag should not have been denied their right to announce who they are either…. But they were. The reason: To avoid unrest.

Let’s look at some of the facts that aren’t being discussed. Remember the Democratic Party contains more African Americans than any other political party in the US….. Democrats also make up the majority of Californiaâ€™s registered voters. Proposition 8 was passed in California 52.24% to 47.76%. According to NEPâ€™s (National Election Pool) exit polling, 70% of African Americans supported prop 8.

Now look at how the Obama Department of Justice has been rabidly defending DOMA and DADT in court and tell me how wonderful liberals are. And while you’re doing that, check out how Harry Reid kicked gays in the teeth a few weeks ago then come back and tell me how wonderful liberals are.

OK, I’ve pointed out the contrary to you; so which party again are you intimating is actively trying to oppress us again? Because when it comes to discrimination, if you’re honest you understand no side, right or left, is free of fault… Having said that, you might try and stop blaming people for a moment and consider while the Right’s hands are dirty, as of late the Left’s have become down right bloody.

SammySeattle

Hot potato of hate.

Craig

I wonder how they’d respond to students wearing a simlar t-shirt on the same day that said “conservative Christianity is shameful”?

enough already

Spartann,
I’m trying really hard to not blankly call you a racist. Either you seriously left out a thought or three or you are a racist.
Which is it?

Spartann

to Craig….

Ya know I have to laugh when I hear someone stand up for the Democratic party. These are the same people who have been running our education system. The same people who have been running the unions. The same people that are running the cities that have been broken for years, the same people who’ve been running everything that’s been run into the ground in this country.. You gotta love the American left… They sure know how to run things…..

“biblical tolerance”

I want to keep and open mind. But people like Chambers, LaBabs, and Linda Harvey have turned ‘biblical tolerance’ into a classic oxymoron.

Spartann

[comment removed. Off topic. Way way way way off topic]

Ray

How about this for a tee shirt:

“help for those struggling with their Christianist impulse to bully other into suicide”

enough already

Oh, and yes, you are a racist.

Paul in Canada

It never ceases to amaze me to see the depths christianists will stoop. I guess the means justifies the end.

FOTF = liars, deceivers (of themselves) and bullies.

Richard Rush

Andrew wrote,

Hmmâ€¦ to put this in reverse, I wonder what would happen if students came to school with the message that Christians were deluded and that there was no God. And, you know, to have a day where both sides have a chance to discuss whether or not Christian students lack the ability to think for themselves, or are part of a larger agenda. And whether or not they should be ashamed. If students came in with t-shirts showing witches burning on pyres labelled â€œChristianity Killsâ€. . .

. . . Please note: Iâ€™m being totally facetious.

Like DÃ©sirÃ©e, I also feel it’s “too bad you were being facetious . . .”

Richard Rush

Spartann, I seems that you have wandered away from home and are having trouble finding your way back. Allow me to help you get headed in the RIGHT direction: Gay Patriot

enough already

The racists are on all the big gay blogs today. I’m beginning to wonder if that isn’t how wickedgayblog got taken down this morning….

David C.

@Spartann: You might want to read something that places your statistics in a more complete context: The Prop 8 Report.

In fact, this is suggested viewing/reading for all concerned, including yourself enough already, and will provide all of us with a more compelling argument against the apparently racist demography misconstrued from the Prop 8 voter patterns. Well beyond this boon, it will help us to understand what we need to do better in our struggle for equality.

Craig

@Spartann,

I appear to be the only Craig here, but I’m at a loss as to how to make any sense of your comment to me, given that I made no mention of *any* political party. There appears to be no logic in your reponse to my comment.

Spartann

[comment removed. Off topic. No connection to the topic of the thread or to others’ comments.]

Spartann

to Craig….

In as much as the thread by Tim Kincaid challenges a part of conservatism, as did your post afterwards, I just figured you were speaking from the left side of the aisle. If my assessment of your comment is wrong, then I apologize…. but even if that’s so, I’m sure what I said still hits a bone with many of the other people making their case here on Box Turtle today.

================================

to enough already….

The worst of all the reactions from people who act as if they have a right to win, have come from some people like yourself in the wake of voter rejection. Apparently you believe the voters donâ€™t have the same right to speak up as other Americans, at least not if they donâ€™t vote the way some liberal minded people want them to vote. While demanding tolerance from others, some liberals apparently feel no need to show any of their own.

I would hope nobody is in favor of anarchy. But there are those, like yourself, who want everybody else to obey the rules, while they donâ€™t have to. Now you can interpret what’s happening any way you like…. but the fact still remains what you want is not decisive in the end. It is what other people are willing to tolerate that determines how far any group can go.

Timothy Kincaid

Spartann,

The topic of this thread is not “why liberals are wrong”. If you have something to say that is relevant to the Day of Truth, do so. But your attempts to pick fights will not be tolerated.

enough already

Spartann,
My husband and I split our time between a civilized reality in which we have full human and civil rights and the US where we are treated as sub-human and denied our full civil rights.

Why on earth should I fight for anything less than the full restitution of my civil rights? What else could possibly be more important than fighting for the civil rights and full human status of all people?

Your assumptions are based on racist principles and the perpetual resentment of those who really think Dixie was right.

But, heh – some blacks still vote Republican, some gays were stupid enough to support the Nazis right here where I live today. You have accomplished one thing, you’ve helped me to realize that some gays really do deserve the government we now will suffer under.

Spartann

to Tim Kinkaid…

Woah dude, I am far from trying to pick a fight here…. Trust me, I know better than to do so. Furthermore, I have been very selective in the words I’ve chosen to post……. I will admit however, that I am speaking truth to power here… But it appears the truth I voice in my rebuttals to your members isn’t what you or a few of the others commenting on this cite expected…. I do find it awfully revealing, that there are folks here who are trying to do to me what they believe the right is doing to gay youth.

================================

to enough already….

Its unfortunate that there are liberals, who like birds of a feather, refuse to recognize that gay people can be conservative and even a Christian at that…. I think by doing so, it’s a way of believing they don’t exist…. and therefore, the same must have some sinister and nefarious agenda.

I’d like to know what kind of message that sends to the allies of gay people everywhere? Both in the church and elsewhere. When because they don’t profess to your dogma, you would tell them their voice doesn’t count.

Remember, we are dealing with a faith here that is embraced by the majority of people living in this country. So the question bears asking, “Why is it so many liberals only see the bullies and nut-jobs in the church, instead of all the Christians that have stood up against the wrongs that have been perpetrated? Is it because they too disagree with some things being espoused by some gay people?

Timothy Kincaid

Spartann,

You’re jousting at windmills. We are as quick to praise admirable action by Christian supporters as we are to condemn the actions by those who oppose us. You need only to look at ANY OTHER COMMENTARY POSTED TODAY to see this.

And we have more than a few Christians and Republicans who participate at this site. They are welcome and they participate in the conversation.

You, on the other hand, have come here full of presumptions, trying to play martyr, and wanting to attack others for what you assume, in your ignorance, that they believe.

There are plenty of sites in which the comment section is nothing but nasty personal attacks on others. This isn’t one of them.

If you have anything to say about the topic of the thread do so. Your opinion is welcome and it need not agree with anyone else. But it must be relevant to the discussion and not just a rant about your imagined grievances.

If you are incapable of participating in this manner, then I invite you to go elsewhere.

Am I clear?

Amicus

Tim,

Thanks for a well written history of this ugliness.

A. How the ADF continues to use secular notions, like “freedom of speech”, on behalf of a faith that doesn’t hold any such tenant, is something not to be missed.

B. If there is a common ground, it has to be that kids in public school are in a special circumstance and using “religion” to mitigate the differences that kids find – call it “compassion” if you must – rather than amplify those differences seems a proper, age-appropriate pedagogy. Put another way, kids are not of an age in which they can engage in a comprehensive “dialog” on sexual ethics, are they?

C. The appeal to a pluralistic notion of “all views must be heard” is as odd as part A, above. For instance, Focus doesn’t frequently invite jews, hindus, buddists, mormons, muslims, or atheists to help them “get out the truth”. Either “Christian belief” has the only place, or it has no place, or it is to be considered, in an academic fashion, as a belief among others.

D. While it is obvious why bullying gays is appropriate for attention in the schools, there still seems something distorting in Christian school outreach targeted so much to gays. True or false: more kids of a certian age, today, are cheating on their exams than (a) have had premarital sex or (b) have grave concerns that the gay kid up the street is destroying society with his puppy love.

E. At the root of the problem is a fundamentalist or “conservative” issues with the question of how Christians should handle encountering ‘iniquity’ in the world, of various kinds. Since the Reformation, this encounter isn’t just between Christians and heathens, it’s among denomination and other faiths. Perhaps, there is some of this the “evolution” of the tone and content, as the struggle for ‘what to do’ is vetted, running from fire-and-brimstone to something softer.

The challenge for Christians who do not believe the faith is bolstered by confusing rule with reign, government with religious ministry, or clouding public policy in untoward ways with faith.

Some things, one can bear and forebear and some things, one cannot.

Focus don’t get that, perhaps, because they want political power.

Amicus

[sorry for sentence frags – that was Zen, but this is Tao.]

Amicus

I suspect that few among them have interest in a dialogue of that sort.

However, they might admit that the matters you discuss are “matters of conscience”, ultimately.

The question then becomes how people with disparate views – perhaps even ‘intolerant’ views – can come together in civil society.

And the answer is: humility, respect, and love.

Easier said than done.

Many people feel set-up by the need to consider “other views”, part C and what that implies for part E, in my ad-hoc labels above. They are told they can’t pray in their school, and they look around and say, “What harm has it been doing? Who are these people who say we can’t do this? Why do we have to accommodate non-believers and worse?”

Unfortunately, there has now been decades of people building a religio-political pandering to this sentiment.

There is big money to be had, doing it.

Instead of helping their “flocks” to a broader understanding of their faith and its encounter with the world, there have been a slew of groups who had done the opposite: narrowed the view, made political-religious litmus tests out of single issues that are often the least “provable”, teach strange “Dominion” theologies that attempt to answer the questions with an absolutism that is the hobgoblin of weak minds and spirits.

There are a great many who have been misled for a long time, and one senses that it is time for the pendulum to swing back.

ZRAinSWVA

Amicus wrote, “Put another way, kids are not of an age in which they can engage in a comprehensive â€œdialogâ€ on sexual ethics, are they?”

Excellent point! Spot on!

No,they cannot, especially at younger ages. And what FOTF and other organizations like it are doing is bullying the children to bully others, when none of the children are equipped–mentally, emotionally or through the education of life experiences–to have those discussions. Shameful.

justsearching

(http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/04/12/gay-day-silence-waste-tax-dollars-say-critics/)

It’s encouraging to note that the Day of Silence planners report that hundreds of thousands of students were part of the event. Meanwhile the Day of Truth/Dialogue had a little over 1,000 participants in 2005, 7,000 in 2007 and 7,500 in 2010. My guess is that their numbers will be less this year than last.

Here’s a fun headline from Fox News from 2010’s event: “Gay Day of Silence is a Waste of Tax Dollars”. I commend Fox on being able to lie twice in one headline. First, it’s not solely gays that remain silence. A large part, if not the majority, of those who remain silent are not gay. Second, the event has very little to do with tax dollars. GLSEN is not funded by taxes; taxes don’t pay for helping recruit participants; taxes are only wasted on education if parents don’t send their kids to school on that day.

justsearching

I might add that even if some tax dollars were used on this day, the headline shows that this Fox writer thinks that spending money to reduce gay teen suicides is a waste of money. I mean, why spend money on problems that are able to get rid of themselves?

Priya Lynn

Justsearching, you ommitted part of that headline, the “critics say” part. Fox News didn’t say that themselves and for Fox News the article was as balanced as you can expect from them.

justsearching

You know, I opened that news story, read it, came back it to a few minutes later, and I honestly did not notice the second line of that headline the second time around :|

So yes, my reading was dreadfully selective… However, I do notice a trend in Fox and other conservative websites where, even if a somewhat balanced treatment of a topic/story is given, a rather blaring/extreme statement/idea is included in the headline and I think this both colors the view of those who read the story and especially the view of those who just see the headline and neglect to read the story (or those who don’t notice the whole headline at all…)

The onus of my previous comments, then, shifts mainly from the Fox writer to said critics.

Timothy Kincaid

Yet again a thread has been derailed by the theist v. anti-theist debate.

So as to get us back on track – and to discourage future derailing – I’ve removed the comments that are not on topic.

enough already

Timothy,
My apologies.

I am convinced that the only way for us to end this evil is to attack our enemies on multiple fronts, at the same time.

To the limited extent that laws protect us, then through the courts.

An awful lot of their biggest supporters (see Target, for example) aren’t too happy being dragged through the mud and being named publicly is so not to their taste.

Dig up their private lives and make them very public. These people all to often are closet cases. I have no reservations, at all, outing people who publicly attack us who are members of our queer community. If it destroys their lives, all the better. Make them serve as examples to others. They are the direct reason children are beaten, raped and driven to suicide.

We have to stop fighting among ourselves long enough to put together outstanding resources in an easily accessible Internet database which anyone can use to fight back. We know that gays, lesbians and the transgender have been proved to be just as good at parenting (better in many ways) than heterosexual couples are. When they tell their lies, be able to counter them.

We lost in Maine, we lost in California because they always go for the “what about the children?” lie. That one has to be hit, and hit hard. It takes money, it takes ready to go resources, it takes good contacts to the media.

To the extent christians are willing to work with us (or at least leave us alone), I’m even willing to work with them. Fight fire with the most evil, hateful fire you can get.

In other words – we have to stop bringing knives to gun fights and start bringing thermo-nuclear devices.

AdrianT

Well, it is my hope that anyone, who engages with supporters of this day of Dialogue initiative, takes the discussion in the very direction that Timothy does not want to take this thread!

enough already

Sheesh, AdrianT – you just can’t let go of it, can you?

No, you can’t.

Now, your religious devotion to defending a word is exactly the problem one faces in trying to deal with christians on the level of religion.

It can’t be done. They are just as firmly, stubbornly certain they are right and everyone else is wrong as you just showed yourself to be.

What does work is to hit back with laws (such as they are), outings, destroying the personal lives of the hateful closeted gays who manipulate christians against us, cutting into the profits of big companies, making the price to be paid for beating a child too high for the christians to keep doing so.

That works. Your approach is their approach. Failure. Total failure.

Spartann

to enough already….

People that lash out as you suggest with a type of community organizing bunk, only hinder any hope of a sympathetic dialogue ensuing any time soon… Christian sensitivity, though always seeking to be simpatico, will instead recoil when assaulted…. Knowing that as you must, why is it you insist on becoming irrational, even crazed, the moment your way isn’t supported?

What right has anyone to out his fellow man????? Shame on you for suggesting so.

enough already

Spartann,
I think it is easiest to address your statments by repeating them and then respond.

People that lash out as you suggest with a type of community organizing bunk,
(Bunk? We pushed through gay civil unions in Europe by being organized and pushing hard. The teabaggers just through investing millions of dollars in community organizing. You either are trying to discourage what works or you are ignorant of history.)
only hinder any hope of a sympathetic dialogue ensuing any time soonâ€¦
(We define sympathetic dialogue differently. The Southern Baptist Conference, the Roman Catholic Church, the Mormons – our best financed enemies are all now united in pushing for a constitutional amendment to have us declared sub-human and stripped of the few civil rights we now “enjoy” for ever. That is their stated goal. Until they reach it, they are practicing their christian views by raping children, beating and bullying them. There is no dialog, the only position the christians have said they will accept is our permanent subjugation. You know that. By the by, as a christian, you are forbidden to bear false witness. Why are you doing so here?)

Christian sensitivity, though always seeking to be simpatico, will instead recoil when assaultedâ€¦.
(Simpatico? You mean there is a deeper level of hatred than comparing us to pedophiles, saying we should be castrated, our marriages dissolved, our children taken from us, the return of electro-shock therapy, incarceration, the re-institution of laws forbidding homosexual relationships? Do tell – you christians are alredy raping children, beating them and bullying them to the point of suicide.)
Knowing that as you must, why is it you insist on becoming irrational, even crazed, the moment your way isnâ€™t supported?
(I’ve been fighting for our rights since 1974. This is not irrationality, we are not the ones raping, beating, murdering, bullying people. You are. That’s a fact. Who’s irrational? You are.)

What right has anyone to out his fellow man????? Shame on you for suggesting so.

(What right do you christians have to take our children from us, to deny us access to our loved ones on their death beds, to make our lives as horrible as possible, simply because we aren’t like you? You are the one who needs to be ashamed. And, yes, every single Catholic priest who rapes children must be outed and brought to justice as a rapist. Every bible thumper who agitates against us to the extent that heterosexual children in Mississippi who have unusual names are now beaten for them because they are “an affront to ‘God'” must be discredited. The best way to do that is to find the truth about their private lives and to make it public. If they suffer for that, good – it is a warning to other christians to stop your hate filled attacks on us.

Silence is death. Saying “it can’t happen hear” is death. You have publicly proclaimed your goal of torturing us, of relegating us to permanent sub-human status, of stripping us of the few civil rights we now have. Fighting you with every legal means is justified, necessary and the only chance we have.

You have declared yourself our enemy, not the other way round.)

Spartann

to enough already…

First off the bat, why don’t you follow the suggestion of your chosen moniker?

Having said that, just remember it’s the state that has the power to intercede… not the church.

As for the rest of your diatribe, I liken what you’ve said to the words of a race baiter: Subjective, sinister and irrelevant to the discourse at hand.

enough already

Spartann,
Ah, well, yes – the traditional denial of the christians.

You only want the best for us in torturing, beating, bullying and raping our children.

It’s your way of showing your “god’s” love. Hatred, pure.

As for the State, because of you christians, the State is in violation of several Amendments to the Constitution regarding us gays and transgender.

Timothy Kincaid

enough already,

Your denunciations of Christians in general dances awfully close to hate speech. Try to reel it in.

enough already

Timothy,
I suppose it sounds that way – just, I have not single, solitary ground to see any christian as wishing anything else for me except my torture and death.

All they write, all they speak, all they urge their brain-washed followers to vote is to strip me of the few rights I do have and to permanently subjugate me to sub-human status.

If it will please you, however, I shall be happy to add “with the understanding that it may well be possible that not all christians are that way” to any postings.

Timothy Kincaid

enough already

No, it is not true that all Christians wish you torture and death. It isn’t even true except for “may well possible” exceptions.

So rather than suggest that you reel it in, I’m going to simply remove future comments that make broad and sweeping generalities and which demonize all Christians.

If you wish to discuss specific denominations, its fine to do so accurately. If you want to speak of the teachings of subsets of Christianity, say conservative evangelicals, that’s fine too.

But if you want to lump all Christians together and throw hate at them, well there are literally hundreds of websites that operate that way and would be happy to have your addition.

enough already

Timothy,
I can live with that.

Spartann

to Timothy Kincaid….

I have to take exception to your suggestion of lumping conservative evangelicals together. At best what you’re proposing is subjective, and could hardly produce a fair assessment of conservatism in Christianity. Sure there will be more than one or 2 common threads running between the varying sects, however to be fair, each instance is best considered when discussed on a case by case basis.

Timothy Kincaid

Spartann,

Just as in any other matter under discussion, as long as whomever is “lumped together” shares common attributes relevant to the discussion and they are being described accurately, that’s fine.

Spartann

to Timothy Kincaid…..

Hmmmm, let’s see… Given your logic… “All dogs have fleas… Therefore all dogs are fair game when talking about parasites.”

A bit myopic, don’t you think ? And certainly not fair.

enough already

Spartann,
The Nazi underlings used the same arguments you do – it wasn’t me, it was him. My section of the SS wasn’t responsible for this, they were.
You make my arguments for me.

Timothy, will you accept ‘christianist?’

Spartann

to enough already….

You need to quit trying to link early 20th century fascism to hidebound Christianity. Comments such as yours here can do nothing to aid in a solution of the problem…….. Maybe it’s a good thing you reside in Germany…

Timothy Kincaid

enough already,

Your comparison to Nazis is WAY over the top. We aren’t talking about blame-shifting within a unified and organized political structure.

It simply is irrational to discuss “all Christians” as though the United Church of Christ were interchangeable with the Roman Catholic Church or as though the Episcopal Church were in agreement with Southern Baptists.

That you don’t see distinction is not a reflection of nature of Christendom but rather a display of your – perhaps intentional – ignorance. If you read here regularly you absolutely have to have encountered Christians – indeed denominations – that do not fit your stereotypes and presumptions.

This isn’t a matter of finding the right word with which to characterize and demonize a wide swath of people, but rather my insistence that you do not do so here at BTB using any word.

There are a good many sites that delight in cartoon depictions of Christians. We don’t do that here. You are welcome to participate and you certainly can believe whatever you like about whomever you like, but we see no value in assigning generalisms and throwing hate.

enough already

Spartann,
If the boot jackboot fits, wear it.
And, if not for all christians (required disclaimer) then certainly for the christianity you are advocating.

I especially liked your little comment about being slow to anger, but once enraged. That, of course, is straight out of antebellum Dixie…as you well know.

enough already

Timothy,
I really am not ignorant of the statements and the steps which the Nazis took throughout the 1920’s and the early 1930’s to gain power.

There are quite a few “christian” groups (NOM, Focus on the Family, The American Conference of Catholic Bishops, The Quorum of the Twelve Disciples, to name but a few) which use the same propaganda techniques, the same “victimhood’, the same focus on one particularly unpopular group which is disproportionately successful to achieve their goals.

Do I approach this from a very firm stance? Yes, I do. I accept your criticism that not all christians are, per se, murderers and torturers. That said, any casual perusal of new media show that nearly our entire field of enemies come from the christian world.

I am not aware of any pagans or atheists or agnostics bullying our children, raping our transgender sisters, torturing and murdering openly gay men or beating children bloody, kicking them on the ground because they have the “wrong” gendered name – as those fine, upstanding young christians just did a few weeks back to young Randi in Mississippi.

Here, in this thread, we have an individual who openly used racist code, threatens christian retaliation and denigrates any perspective from outside the enormously limited field of American exceptionalism.

He clearly represents exactly what I have been saying about the christians.

Now, I am listening to you, I am very willing – because I have enormous respect for your stances and the intelligence you have brought to the discussion of issues relevant to us, to accept your judgment that I see things from too jaundiced an eye. At the same time, a dear friend of mine, stuck in the US, is being hounded at work by a new supervisor who has openly stated that she will harass him until he quits, his gayness is an offence to the christian god. He lives in a state which permits, expressly, discrimination against homosexuals. I read an email from him – dependent on his job, with elderly parents dependent on his staying in their community – and then see the attacks upon our community and it makes me furious. It enrages me.

Spartann

to enough already…

Obviously you’ve lost all semblance of discipline. So it goes without saying any attempt at a cogent argument; well that’s definitely out of the question……. Oh and that friend you mentioned. Common sense says, if he hasn’t filed a law suit yet, then chances are he’s just as rationally destitute as you appear to be.

Timothy Kincaid

Spartann,

be civil.

Priya Lynn

Spartann, many states allow discrimination against gays and as such filing a law suit would be a waste of time and money.

justsearching

Spartan said “I do find it awfully revealing, that there are folks here who are trying to do to me what they believe the right is doing to gay youth.” Someone has a bit of a martyr complex… and he refers to cogent arguments as irrational without concerning himself with the points being made.

Overall, I agree with what enough already said here “There are quite a few â€œchristianâ€ groups (NOM, Focus on the Family, The American Conference of Catholic Bishops, The Quorum of the Twelve Disciples, to name but a few) which use the same propaganda techniques, the same ‘victimhoodâ€™, the same focus on one particularly unpopular group which is disproportionately successful to achieve their goals.”

I would add that I don’t think the trajectory of history will result with them being on top of anything. The influence of religion, particularly in politics, is declining (though not as fast as some would like.)

I also agree with enough already’s claim that the vast majority of our opposition marches with a religious banner. I don’t think anyone could seriously deny that. However, I do see change in many of America’s Christian denominations, and I look forward to the day where this anti-gay view will be on the fringes of whatever “mainstream Christianity” then is.

enough already

Spartann,
As Priya Lynn affirmed, he lives in a state which expressly permits discrimination against homosexuals.

There are 37 states which do so, to some degree or other.
I already mentioned this – something a disciplined reader would notice and, were he or she to doubt, verify.

Perhaps this is an opportunity for you to actually learn about the situation under which members of the queer community live.

Oh, and the attorney general of his state has clearly stated his desire to see homosexuality once again declared illegal because his christian faith says homosexuals are an abomination.

I don’t doubt the “c” and the “r” in your self-identification, not so sure just what the “g” stands for…”Gegner” perhaps? A fine old agitprop word, to be sure.

enough already

justsearching,
Thank you.

My husband and I split our time between Europe and the US; here in Europe, we are human. In the US, we are sub-human.

I just don’t understand why political correctness should extend to our sworn enemies. Generalization is a bad thing, but when the only people attacking one are christians, it strikes me as very relevant to call say so.

Spartann

to enough already…

Though I have adversaries here at home I absolutely disagree, I sure as hell don’t consider them my enemy…. That’s just a word I refuse to use when speaking of a fellow citizen….. Yeah political discourse in this country is spirited, and when the discussion is tainted by religious piety, the conversation can get down right nasty.

Laws to end race discrimination took generations before they were enacted across this land… but I bet you didn’t know some states still have laws prohibiting farm animals from traveling in the back seat of a car.

You have to remember, people inherently fear something they don’t understand…. Seems to me if we want to bring an end to the deterrent religiosity presents, then we need to rise above the rhetoric, by emphasizing inclusivity more, instead of differentiating with labels.

Priya Lynn

Spartann said “Laws to end race discrimination took generations before they were enacted across this landâ€¦ but I bet you didnâ€™t know some states still have laws prohibiting farm animals from traveling in the back seat of a car.”.

So what?

Spartann

to Priya Lynn….

Pope John Paul II once said, “Stupidity is also a gift of God….but one mustn’t misuse it.”

justsearching

@Spartann- You’re willing to call others your adversary and yet you consider yourself principled and, seemingly, above others because you refuse to call them your “enemies.” Look, in my dictionary, and in several on-line ones I checked, the terms are synonymous. There’s no need for you to recommend your semantic norms to the rest of us.

More importantly, if I, or others, want to use the term “enemy” to refer to those who believe gays are entitled to less civil rights and who believe that our lifestyle is inherently immoral and degenerate, then we are free to do so.

You speak of “rising above the rhetoric” “emphasizing inclusivity ” and not differentiate with labels. As for rhetoric, I don’t believe it’s rhetoric for one to state that religion is the primary roadblock to gays getting their full civil rights in the US. As for inclusivity… I’m as willing to get as cozy with Christians as they’re willing to get cozy with me, a gay atheist. As for labels, I’m not sure what labels you’re referring to.

I’m also scratching my head trying to figure out what farm animals in the back seats of cars has to do with the price of tea in China…

enough already

I remember the first time I dealt with the government of Germany. Had to go in for a residency permit and I had already decided to use the opportunity to see if gays really were accepted in the country or whether I was about to invest a good chunk of my life in a place as bad as or worse than the US for gays.

The woman who processed my form got to the question “religion” (you pay taxes to the church of your faith through the government if you are christian here). I said “gay wiccan”. She said, hmm…you can be gay Jewish, gay catholic, gay Protestant, gay wiccan or even straight and an atheist, as far as we are concerned. Just, don’t drop dead and then bitch ’cause the local church won’t bury you for free.

I promised to try hard not to die anytime soon. She said it would be better, so. Wished me a blessed Samhain.

Stamp, stamp, “Next please!”

The first time I traveled to the US after we married, a customs officer, noting that I had the same name as the man ahead of me noticed my wedding ring was the same as that on my husband’s hand (we had not announced we were married, we are not naive). He loudly said: WE DO NOT TOLERATE GAY MARRIAGE HERE! YOU ARE NOT MARRIED!

I quietly pointed out that I was a US citizen, my husband was a US citizen and we were married whether it pleased him or not.

Took three fcuking hours to get through the customs in that sweet airport in Dixie. They literally tore the seams out of my jacket, looking to find something, anything with which they could hang us high.

These people who make such a big deal about how being a christian lets them be so hateful are the people I am supposed to treat with? Puhlease, Mary.

The only thing to be done with them is to fight them with every legal means available. If there are christians out there who are willing to ignore us or treat us well, great. Wonderful. Be happy to meet him or her. Until then, any legal weapon available to us must be used to make their lives as horrible, difficult and full of pain, suffering and desperation as they make our children feel.

That is my answer to the “Day of Truth” question posed here – hit them with the few laws which support us. Find the “dirt” on them and use it to hurt them through scandal and public embarrassment. Raise funds among our fabulously wealthy and even more disinterested community to finance effective counter campaigns. For every “Teh Gayz” will turn your children in fashion conscious, well-groomed non-violent people, of the agony of it! ad, we need to have 20 showing the victims of catholic priests with the rope still around their necks because their christian families told them it was their fault they were raped. The girls who had to have abortions or give their children away need to tell their stories. The true information on gay and transgender parents needs to come out. We know where and how they’ll attack – we must counter with the truth. Hmm, doesn’t their
religion say something about “truth making you free”? Why, yes, it does. Massacre them on the airwaves with it.

It’s well established that those who scream loudest about us are often gay themselves. Slip in a cute young guy, get pictures or, even better, pull a Monika Lewinski on them and send the results to their wives and churches. Preferably in technicolor and dolby surround.

Make the cost of treating us as sub-human and second-class citizens so high that they ultimately leave us alone. That is my understanding of constructive dialog.

enough already

Oh, I can explain the farm animals comment. Spartann was saying that treating us as sub-human was on the same level as the obsolete rules many states still have.

At least, I hope that is what he was saying. That’s my charitable take on it.

And, yes, Spartann, I know the origins of the term.

Spartann

to justsearching…..

It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God….. but to create him. I mean, according to many atheists, man has already created God in his image : intolerant, sexist, homophobic and violent……. Soooooo, if that’s the case; shouldn’t atheists be blaming mankind for what ails the world…. and not religion?

Secondly, I made the racism/farm animal comment earlier just to emphasize, though we’ve come a long way as a nation, there still are many idiotic laws remaining on the books. Period.

Timothy Kincaid

enough already

If there are christians out there who are willing to ignore us or treat us well, great. Wonderful. Be happy to meet him or her. Until then, any legal weapon available to us must be used to make their lives as horrible, difficult and full of pain, suffering and desperation as they make our children feel.

Either

a) you don’t regularly read this blog

b) you are a raving loon incapable of seeing support when we write about it

c) you really don’t care what the facts are, you are simply looking to justify your own religious bigotry and hatred – just as do the anti-gay religious zealots.

I apologize for the strong language, but as we have literally hundreds of postings on pro-gay Christians, it is difficult to come to any other conclusions.

Spartann

to enough already….

Ya know, one thing I’ve noticed is that all of these conspiracy theories you’re fond of mentioning depend on the perpetrators being endlessly clever. But I think you’ll find they’ve worked even better when many of the victims were endlessly stupid in the way they reacted.

Having said that, I would defend the liberty of all consenting adults of any ilk to practice whatever “intellectual” perversions they like in the privacy of their own homes or not; but it is also necessary to protect the young and the innocent. And in that I will not deviate.

enough already

Spartann,
You suggest I believe in conspiracy theories. I don’t.

I do believe in history. I arrived in Germany when the survivors of the Nazi era were still young enough to tell me what happened and how it happened.

I also happened to live in the US during the early rise of the religious right on radio and through small, independent christian churches.

The processes the Nazis exploited – beginning before they were the Nazis, they grew out of several groups – are exactly the same as the processes which the religious right and many small, highly conservative christian churches used, with success.

That’s not conspiracy, that’s simply learning about 20th century history.

Were the victims of the Nazis stupid? Good question. No doubt, some were. Most of what I have read suggests, however, that the reactions of the ultimate victims to what was happening echo more the opening scene of Schindler’s Liste than a replay of Hee-Haw. Nobody was willing to believe that it could happen here, in a civilized country.

I am constantly being reminded here that I am too extreme in my views (too much Rocky Horror at midnight in my formative years?) and that there are many christians who stand “with” us. That may well be.

Reasonably, I hope I am wrong and that what was done to Jews, Roma, Sinti, gays, transgender, socialists and all the many others would be prevented in the US by this vast number of “good” christians who “support” us.

None of that, though, to return to your statement, means I’m seeing conspiracies. What I see are very determined people who have focused on gays and the transgender as the perfect group to rally others against. You saw these last months how easily the anti-Mexican drum got pulled out of the closet and how quickly the immigrants were attacked. Was that conspiracy or merely seizing an opportunity to advance a political agenda with an easy object of fear?

I truly don’t quite grasp what you mean about defending rights and children. I was able to decipher your animals in the back seat reference because I grew up in the country. This reference puzzles me. What are you trying to say?

Priya Lynn

Spartann talks about “rising above the rhetoric”, taking the high road, not making people enemies and then calls people stupid for not getting his nonsensical racism/farm animals comment – what a hypocrite.

justsearching

“Soooooo, if thatâ€™s the case; shouldnâ€™t atheists be blaming mankind for what ails the worldâ€¦. and not religion?”

Blame is something we actually attach to people, even if we sometimes speak of attaching it to ideas. When we say we blame communism, religion, capitalism or racism, we really mean that we put blame on communists, religious people, capitalists or racists for specific problems. In this case, I don’t blame the amorphous concept of religion for the homophobic tenants it may (or may not) contain. I blame those people who continue in their homophobia and justify their behaviors and views with religious truths. When looking at the diverse Christian American opinions on homosexuality, it would be inappropriate of me to say that I blame all Christians or all forms of Christianity for continued homophobia.

Enough, I’ll take a stab at Spartann’s cryptic unclear comments. Perhaps you’re a practitioner of intellectual “perversions” and perhaps you’re a risk to others? Who knows. There are two kinds of people in the world: those who know how to finish up a thought, and then there are those.

Spartann

to justsearching….

You say you don’t blame all of Christianity, however if you scroll up and read some of your other comments on this topic, you clearly don’t differentiate when pointing a finger at those you blame.

Oh and dude…sorry if what I’ve said here is too difficult for you to process.. but come on, it’s not like I’m giving out clues for a scavenger hunt.

enough already

Spartann,
No, you leave a very clear trail. It is easy, indeed, to see where you are coming from and where you are going.

We simply do not share your hatred of homosexuals and the transgender.

Not to mention your racist beliefs.

justsearching

@ Spartann”You say you donâ€™t blame all of Christianity, however if you scroll up and read some of your other comments on this topic, you clearly donâ€™t differentiate when pointing a finger at those you blame.”

That’s bullshit. I spoke about religion twice in my comments on this article. I stated “I also agree with enough alreadyâ€™s claim that the vast majority of our opposition marches with a religious banner. I donâ€™t think anyone could seriously deny that. However, I do see change in many of Americaâ€™s Christian denominations…”

How is that not differentiating?

I also stated “I blame those people who continue in their homophobia and justify their behaviors and views with religious truths. When looking at the diverse Christian American opinions on homosexuality, it would be inappropriate of me to say that I blame all Christians or all forms of Christianity for continued homophobia.”

How is that not differentiating?

I think most readers will note, Spartann, your ability to be condescending and your inability to be clear.

Spartann

to enough already….

Dude, what are you talking about ? I am far from being a racist and I sure as hell have yet to express a hatred for anyone… Not even towards someone as delusional as you are… You obviously need some serious, and I mean some serious frickin help.

enough already

justsearching,
I think part of the problem Spartann faces is his utter contempt for homosexuals and non-christians. Not to mention liberals, like me.

It so colors his worldview, he has trouble getting a coherent thought out.

What I’ve never really quite understood about those christians who so hate us – why isn’t it enough for them to enjoy the pleasure of “knowing” we’re going to suffer eternal torture in hell? I should think that would be satisfaction enough for them to leave us alone.

Guess not. Care to enlighten us, Spartann?

enough already

Ah, crossed comments. Spartann, you certainly are not delusional – you’re very clear about your agenda.

It’s rather ironic that Timothy keeps telling me that christians are good guys and those who hate us the exception on a thread in which your participation keeps making my point for me.

[Actually, Timothy has said nothing of the sort.]

Timothy Kincaid

Aaaaaand, the thread has devolved to petty personal attacks.

If anyone has anything to say about the Day of Truth, Day of Dialogue, Day of Silence, or Focus on the Family’s role in any of them, please do.

werdna

@Timothy-

One thing I hope that we can all agree on is that Candi Cushman’s first name is not actually spelled like the sweet stuff kids collect on Halloween! It’s misspelled in another recent post as well, I think. Thanks for taking the time to write this detailed post, shame about the derailing.

Timothy Kincaid