Box Turtle Bulletin

To think this douchebag presided over at Hopkins for a while…

Stephen

I find Throckmorton to be largely uninformed on this matter. He merely has opinions but seems to me to have little comprehension of how LGBT people live their lives either in the past or present. Till 2006, by his own admission, he believed in the efficacy of reparative therapy and it seems he is still on collegial terms with Nicolosi. When I pointed out to him, with what to me seemed to be justifiable indignation, the fact that no reputable psychologist has believed this nonsense since the 1960s he banned me as a commenter. This after leaving many, many, many comments that are disgusting for their vilification and slander of people like me.

Here is a link to a piece at the New Civil Rights Project that reports on what actual experts in this field have to say about Carson’s ignorance.

Stephen

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/_insane_what_experts_say_about_dr_ben_carson_s_claim_that_prison_turns_men_gay

Oops. Here is the link.

Priya Lynn

I sure never thought I’d see the day Alan Chambers would be honest about sexual orientation. I’m thrilled to be wrong.

Dan

Timothy Kincaid:

I know that you have been following Chambers and his changing views on sexual orientation change. Could you clarify something? When he claims to be “completely attracted” to his wife, isn’t he in fact asserting that he has changed. On the one hand, he is saying that his “SSA” (as they call it) hasn’t diminished, but on the other hand he is saying that he is “completely attracted” to at least 1 female. So isn’t that the same thing as claiming sexual orientation change from homosexual to bisexual? Or has he acknowledged that he had bisexual potential prior to his involvement with Exodus?

This may seem like over-analyzing, but Chambers has been so misleading and dodgy with his language for so long, I don’t think anything he says should be exempt from critical scrutiny.

Priya Lynn

Was Chambers lying about being bisexual then, or is he lying about it now? Hard to say but what we do know is that having invested heavily in his relationship with his wife it would be difficult to now come out and say its all a shame, I’m not attracted to her at all.

Priya Lynn

That should say “its all a sham,”

Josh

I’d prefer it if these comments didn’t speculate about Chambers’ relationship with his wife with the assumption of duplicity (lying about bisexual potential, sham marriage). If you have something concrete, by all means say it. I’m curious about the relationship intellectually because it’s rather unique, but if they’ve found a workable balance, good for them.

Richard Rush

Based on the quote in this post, Chambers did NOT say he was completely sexually attracted to his wife (although his omission of that word doesn’t constitute confirmation that he is not sexually attracted to her). I don’t doubt that he truly loves her, but he may be “completely attracted” to her in a platonic way.

Timothy Kincaid

Dan,

Attraction is a funny thing.

Very few men would at 23 find themselves attracted to a 73 year old woman. Yet we know that after 50 years of marriage, many men still find their wife to be sexually desirable. Love and emotion and a shared life work together to help define in our minds what is attractive. The eye doesn’t see the wrinkles or aging body, it see’s the person you love.

Also, while our primary attractions – those which are in play most of the time – tend to be fixed, I think that many of us, gay or straight, have seen the One Exception, the person that is the wrong sex but is still crazy sexy hot and for whom you’d toss your orientation out the window.

It doesn’t mean we are bisexual and that term would be inaccurate. Rather, it means that, as in much of life, absolutes are unrealistic.

And Alan isn’t saying that he’s bisexual. He’s not, in whole, attracted to women, even a little bit.

But Leslie is his One Exception, the one woman that he found sexually attractive and as love and time have compounded that attraction, he continues to find her sexually desirable.

And I believe him.

Neil

Dan,

Homosexuality is not an absolute. Sexual orientation exists on a spectrum. Someone is designated homo or hetero based on their predominant attractions. If their attractiona are relatively even between genders, then we use the term bisexual.

Take the example of singer songwriter Tom Robinson. He’s never identified as anything other than gay. He wrote the gay rights anthem, Glad To Be Gay. And he ended up in a relationship with a woman and they have children. In an interview for The Guardian he said, “I have much more sympathy with bisexuals now, but I am absolutely not one.”

Like Alan Chambers, he is a gay man who happens to be in love with a woman. Unlike Alan Chambers, he never bullshitted himself about changing.

Priya Lynn

I’m not buying that Tom Robinson isn’t bisexual. Saying he isn’t sounds like a political stance.

Regan DuCasse

March 6th, 2015

Hi Stephen: I vividly remember being in conflict with Throckmorton over the very things you described. That was what I got from him as well.
We’ve mended fences since.
I am very frustrated by proponents of the ex gay theory, who dismiss societal bigotry and pressure forcing gay people into unrealistic and damaging repression of their sexuality.
It also dismisses the reality of biological/genetic origin for ALL sexual orientation.
Using a religious reason to define gay people as a problem or having one, isn’t any different than the religious defining dark skin in the same manner. Or gender.
Nobody should have to justify why they exist, against the irrational ideals that keep insisting they aren’t meant to.
Most especially if their orientation isn’t anti social.

Dan

Tim – A man may accept his wife’s aging (as she accepts his) and adjust his sexual attraction, but that has nothing to do with his sexual orientation. Not every aspect of sexual attraction equates to sexual orientation. If the man’s wife were to transform into a man, first growing a mustache, then sprouting back hair, then developing a voice that sounds like a truck on a gravel road, the heterosexual husband will not be sexually attracted.

I don’t know what the basis is of your claim that “many of us, gay or straight, have seen the One Exception, the person that is the wrong sex but is still crazy sexy hot and for whom youâ€™d toss your orientation out the window.” Really? How many and who is us? And where are you getting this? And even if it were true, how would that relate to Chambers? Chambers didn’t pursue some fantasy with a celebrity crush. He met an ordinary woman in church and married her. Are you suggesting that the One Exception can be anyone you pick? Because if that’s what you are saying, and if you are right, then Exodus would be vindicated, since any gay person could “walk away from homosexuality” by selecting any member of the opposite sex as the Exception and then “grow” into a sexual attraction towards him or her. I am not sure where you are getting all this from, but it is a crock.

Neil – I had not heard of the story of Tim Robinson. What seems to be missing from his story, and from Chambers’ story is clarity of communication. Why won’t these people just say in plain English what is going on? For example:

“I was exclusively attracted to men before I met X. I fell in love with X but I am not sexually attracted to her. However, the lack of sexual attraction is unimportant to me and is outweighed by everything else in our relationship. Through a variety of techniques, we managed to have intercourse for the purpose of creating our wonderful children, whom we love. Accordingly, I was homosexual before, I am homosexual now, but none of that changes the fact that I love X and will never leave her.”

*That* kind of statement tells me what is going on. Similarly, a statement that sexual attractions had changed over time for this or that reason would at least make things clear. But you never get that kind of clarity from ex-gays, or from Chambers. There’s deliberate ambiguity and intentional omissions in almost everything they say. So right now, we have Chambers saying that same-sex attractions don’t diminish, but maybe opposite-sex attractions can be increased through conscious effort, or maybe they can only be increased for one person, or maybe not at all.

Priya Lynn

Well done, Dan.

Straight Grandmother

I believe John Smid who finally admitted that he was not sexually attracted to his wife of many many years.

Now Tim can believe Alan is sexually attracted to his wife, “his one and only” but I don’t believe it to be true. I think John Smid was really brave to tell the truth and reading enough stories from gay men who heterosexually married and even fathered children, when you read enough of those personal stories you accept that these are low to no sex marriages. Now that may be fine for them, to have a marriage without sex, but I find it highly unlikely that Alan is ‘sexually’ attracted to his wife. I think it is not a coincidence that both of his children are adopted. Just my opinion.

Timothy Kincaid

Dan and SG,

You may choose to believe whatever you like about what you imagine is going on in someone else’s head.

I find credibility in Alan’s statement.

Richard Rush

Timothy said, “. . . I think that many of us, gay or straight, have seen the One Exception, the person that is the wrong sex but is still crazy sexy hot and for whom youâ€™d toss your orientation out the window.”

Until a legitimate study is conducted on this, how about some anecdotal evidence from commenters? I’ll start:

I remember feeling sexual attractions beginning at about age 12, and they were directed exclusively toward males. I’m 70 now. During the intervening 58 years, not only have I never ever encountered “the One Exception,” I have never ever felt the slightest attraction to a female.

And, no, I don’t have dementia (yet).

Priya Lynn

Several gay men have told me the same thing about their sexuality as Richard just said. As a bisexual its hard for me to relate to, but I’ve heard enough gay men say this that I believe them.

Timothy Kincaid

Richard,

A good many gay men have also told me that they’ve never experienced sexual attraction to a woman. Others have told me of what I call the One Exception.

I don’t think either were lying.

Priya Lynn

Alan has such a long history of lying there’s no reason to believe anything he says that doesn’t have independent corroboration.

Regan DuCasse

I’ve always been exclusively attracted to males. But I know that plenty of gay men and women bond emotionally with members of the opposite sex in ways that’s important and profound.
But that marrying is in part, expected and often with someone to which that bond has occurred. In our relationships, usually marriage comes after several years of closeness, dependency and trust. Certain types of intimacy are protected by a veil of privacy that most straight people don’t breach.
That privacy is well respected, and not discussed in polite company. And much is taken for granted.
But when it comes to gay people, or even say, the disabled.
Straight people are suddenly invasive, and blatantly disrespectful when it comes to sexuality and privacy.
They will ask questions of the disabled, gay or transgender they NEVER would feel comfortable asking a hetero peer.
And then that G, T or disabled person is suddenly the respository for the sexual fantasies or beliefs of the curious.
There was a study done a decade ago about a majority of marriages being celibate.
Usually for reasons of physical disparity, distance, and so on, it was interesting that someone bothered to ask. They didn’t specify groups by gender, orientation or age, that I recall.
But prejudice and bigotry can very well be veiled by ‘curiosity’.
Something I do know, is that the ex gay is subjected to different standards. The pressure is different and they exclude themselves from out and exemplary gay couples or individuals.

But I learned from talking to more than a few ex gays, that their expectations of finding an opposite sex partner, were almost childlike and wistful.
As if such a person, and attraction to them, would come NATURALLY in some way and they’d recognize it when it did.
That doesn’t work with mixed orientation situations.
It really doesn’t. And there isn’t any amount of religious discipline that’s going to make it happen.
There are different social incentives to put a public face on success in these mixed orientation relationships.
But as I said, the veil of what’s PRIVATE is exactly why people are so mystified and in denial about gay people’s needs in this regard.

Nathaniel

Dan, I think Alan was very clear about his relationship with his wife. Is he lying? Maybe. But he was clear. The problem seems to be, not his clarity, but the fact that his statements do not fit neatly into one of the two boxes you demand they fit in. We can all debate this until we are blue in the face, but the truth is each person is entitled to their own self-definition. Only Alan can claim he is gay/bi/straight; the rest of us are only making assumptions. It is even worse that this debate is raging around a man who is standing up FOR LGBT people against doctor-turned-politician who thinks he knows what being gay is all about. We can’t expect to treat our allies (especially the unlikely and the transformed) like lying fiends and make any progress.

Priya Lynn

There’s not much clarity in Alan’s statments and the “two boxes” (continuum) is what it is. You can dislike reality but you can’t change it.

But you do make a great point:
“We canâ€™t expect to treat our allies (especially the unlikely and the transformed) like lying fiends and make any progress.”

So, as long as Alan remains an ally I shan’t speak again about this.

Priya Lynn

But I expect others to not insist his statments about this are true either.

Dan

Tim Kincaid/Nathaniel:

You both seem to think that 1) Alan’s statement is clear and that 2) I just don’t want to accept what he is clearl saying. I am an expert on what I, Dan, find clear and unclear. And I have set forth specifically what is unclear about the statement. Once again:

1 – He does not say whether he is sexually attracted to his wife. (“Completely attracted” does not mean sexually attracted any more than “change” means “sexual orientation change.”)

2. He does not say (and to my knowledge, has not previously said) whether he had any sexual attraction to women prior to Exodus and his meeting his current wife, or alternatively, whether he developed a sexual attraction for his wife through some conscious process.

If that info is contained in his statement, then please tell me specifically where. If he has addressed these points in other statements, I’d really appreciate your letting me know. But it isn’t helpful to just say “Well, it’s clear.”

Once we can figure out what he is saying, then, in theory, we might attempt to evaluate the veracity of the statements. But we can’t test for truth if we don’t even know what the claim is.

Tim Kincaid only: How about answering my question about this “One Exception” that you have heard about from unnamed people? Is the One Exception a celebrity fantasy or can it be any member of the opposite sex that you pick? Also, since we are engaged in rigorous, disciplined science, let me add to your database of knowledge: When I was a teenager, I hung out with a bunch of gay kids. We had no money and we would walk around talking about stuff. One day, we had a discussion about the one female with whom we might “do it.” One person said Madonna and another person said Christina Applegate. This may come as a shock to you, but neither of my friends was serious. And even if they had been, neither one claimed that there was or could be continuous sexual attraction to a woman. They were talking about fulfilling a one-time crazy fantasy with a favorite celeb. Be sure to cite “Dan” in the footnote when you are published in whatever journal Paul Cameron gets published in.

Timothy Kincaid

Dan,

I don’t really think that my repeating what I’ve been told nor your telling of your teenage experiences counts as “rigorous, disciplined science”.

Priya Lynn

Timothy, rather than disputing what Dan says, a more productive approach would be to take Nathaniel’s suggestion and say: “Regardless of the reality regarding Alan’s statments we canâ€™t expect to treat our allies (especially the unlikely and the transformed) like lying fiends and make any progress.”

Timothy Kincaid

thank you for that suggestion

Priya Lynn

Thank you for considering it.

Eric Payne

Can people please STOP citing Paulik or any of his ilk? He’s a publicity whore, plain and simple. I’m surprised Paulik hasn’t contacted Dan Savage to see if Savage would give him the same challenge Savage gave Ben Carson.

Priya Lynn

I don’t see any citing of a Paulik in this thread.

Timothy Kincaid

Oddly, when googling, the only Paulik I see of any prominence (or, at least with a wikipedia page) is a gay porn star. I’m not sure what he has to do with the conversation.

Ben in Oakland