Box Turtle Bulletin

I hate to say this, but I don’t think that it matters all that much that these groups are caught. It’s not like PFOX, the RR media, or the MSM is going to pick up the story and it’s not as if the people who would be swayed by their pieces would ever visit this website or XGW.

Jim Burroway

Actually Samantha, I would respectfully disagree. While you’re probably right about most people who are swayed by their pieces, it’s not necessarily true about all of them. I, for one, was never swayed by PFOX, but I and many others were once swayed by a lot of anti-gay, homophobic statements that we once thought were true. I would venture that virtually everone in the nascent ex-gay survivor’s movement can identify with this.

I have an interesting anecdote which portrays this very well. One of the first articles I wrote when this site was young (and not yet a blog) was about the so-called “Dutch Study.” Shortly after it went up, a young woman wrote to me and said that she had read one of Dr. James Kennedy’s books and ran across his mention of the study. She wanted to learn more about it so she googled it and found my article. She wrote to tell me how surprised she was that someone she respected could misrepresent the study so badly. She said that while she still agreed with him in a lot of things, she would read his stuff with a grain of salt from now on.

So sometimes this work is not about providing evidence for everyone to consider. Sometimes, it’s about providing evidence for those who need it the most.

Samantha Davis

It’s just so frustrating sometimes, but I guess you’re right.

Hey Daniel Gonzales: A FOX has more than one exit hole! If an ex-gay was hit by a gay activist at least you could show some empathy to the victims of an hate crime. David Roberts few phone calls and emails can hardly be called “Undertaking an investigation” and to make a headline like this is far from the standard you usually deliver. Would you still be shouting your bravos if it has been a gay guy being assaulted? Is this how bitter you have become since reorientation therapy did not work for you? Just because it did not work for you …it does not mean it does not work for others. Gee and I thought you were both fair minded and decent. You just proved me wrong.

I did however find another interesting piece of information in the PFOX press release!

a. mcewen

The point, Marcus, is that there is a strong possibility that the supposed crime never happened and that PFOX made the entire thing up.

I do realize that a.mcewen, but gloating and writing bravo in a response to hearsay about a hate crime, is stooping so low … If you had been assaulted
by some holy bullies, and you reported the assault, and some other holy bullies tried to verify it and could not, and then begins laughing and writing bravo in a response to you being assaulted. How would that make you feel?

The only thing I do not understand about this story is that the victim did not press charges against the man who hit him.Only the ex-gay volunteer seems to know what really happened. Any other account is just pure speculation.

And if this is how “used to be good and fair minded gay guys” react to hate crimes towards others, they are sending a strong message to people in favor of hate crime legislation not to support it.

The reactions on EGW and many other sites and blogs and even here on BTB are rather “Phelpish”. When the first ex-gay get murdered I do not look forward to hearing the bravos and standing ovations from gay guys clapping their hands and seeing humorous websites like GAY posting a picture of him “screaming in heaven”….click here!

Marcus, wake up and smell the coffee. What we have here is a pattern of lying from PFOX and other anti-gay organizations. They’ve been caught numerous times making things up in service of their cause. That it itself should trouble ex-gays and yourself but apparently doesn’t. Where is your call for your own side to clean up their act? You come in here and berate people for being outraged that your side is lying. And you interpret that outrage as some form of sour grapes about reparative therapy. Then you continue the nonsense that ex-gays are somehow victims on a large scale. Well, reality simply does not support your contentions and assertions. I challenge you and your side to verify this story, to come up with some real examples of this persecution you throw around like a red cape at a bullfight. Until then, save the victim routine for your fund and sympathy raising efforts.

marcusT

Uhhh… Marcus — in addition to the volunteer who was “assaulted,” you would think that the two police officers who supposedly urged the volunteer to press charges and evicted the militant gays from the event would recall something about the incident. The organizer of the fair might know something about people being forcibly evicted from the event.

If you were a cop who was so disturbed by this thing that you were urging the victim to press charges, would you just quietly ask the perps to leave, and not tell anyone about the situation? What’s to stop them from coming right back in and smacking around some old ladies and children the next time?

Mysteriously, the police and event organizer seem to know nothing about this issue. Hmmm…

Jim Burroway

Marcus,

I can’t speak for Daniel, but I can certainly vouch for him. I’d also point out that when the Detroit medical examiner decided that Andrew Anthos did not die as the result of a hate crime, I was surprised, but I reported that turn of events anyway.

And believe me, if an ex-gay is ever murdered, you most definitely won’t see “bravos and standing ovations from gay guys” either here or on EGW. That is an outrageous accusation that deserves an apology. And by the way, that comment is also against our Comments Policy. Your comments are welcome here, but stay away from the strawmen and keep the insults to yourself.

I agree that some ex-gay ministries and so-called families values groups have lied and distorted the truth. I do take issue and call them on it when I see it. I am not taking side with them! I do however take issue with people who just ad insult to this alleged hate crime. I trust those I consider part of the anti-gay industry very little. But I do give them the benefit of doubt and take issue with those who celebrate hate crimes and applaud it with bravos. That is despicable.

And how should I be able to verify this story when I was not there? Were any of you eyewitnesses? The alleged victim has to give his account of what happened. And then we can choose to trust that or not. Had I been him I would have pressed charges, then there would have been no doubt.

Jim Burroway

Marcus: We weren’t eyewitnesses, but the Arlington Police were. They say no such incident occurred. Now who do you trust?

I condemned an incident in Colorado Springs as a possible hate crime against someone who espoused anti-gay viewpoints. Yet you tied BTB to the Phelps clan who would have no compunction of celebrating such an incident. I’m still waiting for that apology for suggesting that we’d somehow shout bravo and hold a standing ovation if an ex-gay was murdered. That was outrageous and uncalled for.

marcusT

Marcus:

Have you seen someone here “celebrating hate crimes” and “applauding them with bravos?”

Ben in Oakland

Marcus: i have never heard of any ex-gay person being assaulted or murdered for the act of being ex-gay, though I keep it in the realm of possibility– just not a likely one. I have heard of gay people being assaulted and murdered many times, have witnessed twice two assaults, and have been assaulted three times myself for the “crime” of being gay. And I’ve seen plenty of so-called christians applauding that, denying the need for hate crimes bills etc.

You say “I trust those I consider part of the anti-gay industry very little.”

I don’t trust them at all. i have heard their lies, their distortions, their bile. i have seen that theybelieve that i do noth avethe same rights as any other american citizen. ANYTHING they say is highly suspicious to me.

I apologize for writing that gay guys would shout bravo and make standing ovations if an ex-gay got murdered!

I do however still think that Daniel Gonzales, bravo tribute to EGW Author David Roberts is very offensive. David Roberts were not able to verify the incident. That does not mean it did not happen. But he was not there. Neither was Daniel Gonzales as far I know?. He just brings the news from EGW, like some so-called pro-family groups did from PFOX, without verifying it.

I will not accept hate crimes and if any one begin accusing victims of hate crimes to lie based on hearsay I will take issue with them.

I have always supported equal rights for gays and lesbians. And I have spent hundreds of hours arguing in support of H.R. 1592: Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2007 also known as the Matthew Shepard Act. I still remember the vigils I went to in BoysTown Chicago in 1998, when we heard the news. I have also been a victim of a hate crime and vent through a trial to have the perpetrator convicted a jail sentence. So acts of hate crimes makes me very angry. I do not claim that ex-gays are nearly as often victims of hate crimes as gay and lesbians.

What I found more interesting about the PFOX press release was the statements by PFOX leaders for the first time ever publicly acknowledged that gays and exgays have equal rights if anti-discrimination laws include the wording sexual orientation. I have asked why PFOX then keeps fighting against anti-discrimination laws and the hate crime bill.

Jim Burroway

Marcus,

Thank you for your apology.

We were skeptical of PFOX’s description of events from the beginning. No question about it.

But don’t you at least acknowledge that the Arlington Police, who acording to PFOX escorted someone from the fairgrounds and supposedly encouraged PFOX to press charges has absolutely no record of the event? How would they even encourage PFOX to press charges if they have no idea who they just escorted from the grounds?

David Roberts called the fair organizers and the Arlington Police Department to verify PFOX’s claims and came up empty. How is reporting that the Arlington Police Department disputes PFOX “offensive”? Are you suggesting that we should just let PFOX have their say and we should remain silent when the Arlington police says differently? Is the Police department being “offensive”?

I find it offensive that Daniel Gonzales calls PFOXs claims “Hysterical” and that he applauds David Roberts so-called investigation. A person may have been victim of a hate crime here and I would give him the benefit of doubts and show some empathy.

Like you write: Arlington PD having no record of the event is very strange! And yes it does make me suspect that PFOX exaggerated what happened. If at least charges were pressed, PFOX would have been more credible. Now we are left with pure speculation about whether PFOX is just “playing the victim card”. Like fx
Michael Marcavage, director of Repent America IMO did at Outfest in Philadelphia. Throwing himself in front of the crowd and refusing to take orders from police officers so he could get arrested and prove that he was discriminated against!! Now that is what I call hysterical. That incident is filmed on video and viewers can see what happened.

I do however not think an alleged assault/ hate crime is “Hysterical” and deserves to be presented as a laughing matter, like I see Daniel Gonzales does here. If no one but the alleged victim really witnessed the incident. I would remain silent. Daniel Gonzales choosing not to remain silent and mocking a possible victim of a hate crime is what I take issue with.

Jason

Marcus,
I’m sorry, but PFOX doesn’t get to cry hate crime, and sit without scrutiny. It’s a sad thought, but some people do in fact cry wolf about horrible things.

I find it interesting that they chose to make the centerpiece of a public statement an incident that no one can verify. How convenient. Not the event organizers, and certainly not the people who supposedly ejected the gay rights activist. What kind of officer would forget that? How odd in this day and age that nobody had a cell phone with camera/video available. If this is “common” as they note in their press release, why not record it?

Marcus it is not disrespectful to investigate an allegation….especially an allegation from a group known for lying and distorting the truth.

Jim Burroway

Marcus, it looks like this particular allegation of assault is indeed hysterical. And given PFOX’s past behavior on this front, it’s fully worthy of mocking. Although maybe I should see your point. Maybe making a fabricated allegation like PFOX did is no laughing matter.

The fact is, there is NO evidence except PFOX’s say so that anything happened at all. And in fact, the police deny anything happened. I think that is fully mock-worthy.

Emproph

September 4th, 2007

Mock-worthy wise, I give it a mach 5.

Timothy Kincaid

September 4th, 2007

Marcus,

I think your outrage is a bit misplaced. Daniel congratulated Dave at XGW for his investigation. I believe Daniel would have been as equally congratulatory if Dave’s investigation had shown that there was indeed an attack on an ex-gay person.

And I assure you that had this been the case, all of us here at BTB as well as everyone at XGW would have loudly and resoundingly condemned the action. Like you, we take violence and hate crimes seriously.

Secondly, you seem to think that PFOX is more credible than other ex-gay industry organizations. Unfortunately, I don’t think history supports that assumption. I’ve personally reviewed much of their material and read most of their press releases and in my opinion they have demonstrated a pattern of hyperbole, exageration and, frankly, downright dishonesty. PFOX has earned my distrust, many times over.

Third, no one has come forward to identify the ex-gay attacked. I find this interesting for a few reasons. If he was confident to witness at a fair, I wonder why he is so hesitant to be named now.

I don’t know who this ex-gay man is… but I do know that PFOX has in the past (and probably currently) been associated with a particularly vocal and visible ex-gay whose word is, shall we say, not very credible.

My question to PFOX is this: who is the ex-gay?