Box Turtle Bulletin
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobby“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobbyAugust 4th, 2010
The LDS Church regrets that the proposition for which they payed so dearly has been overturned:
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regrets today’s decision. California voters have twice been given the opportunity to vote on the definition of marriage in their state and both times have determined that marriage should be recognized as only between a man and a woman. We agree. Marriage between a man and a woman is the bedrock of society.
“We recognize that this decision represents only the opening of a vigorous debate in the courts over the rights of the people to define and protect this most fundamental institution—marriage.
“There is no doubt that today’s ruling will add to the marriage debate in this country, and we urge people on all sides of this issue to act in a spirit of mutual respect and civility toward those with a different opinion.”
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Scott
August 4th, 2010
Respect and civility went out the window a long time ago.
The mormons can suck it.
Lindoro Almaviva
August 4th, 2010
Excuse me, come again…
Translation:
paul j stein
August 4th, 2010
End marriage as a civil institution. What about ALL marriages treated equally, and CHURCH tax-exempt status intact. If not then treat the churches as taxable and have all unions civil and same legal status. Let the “marriage” be a religious event of choice.
Ryan
August 4th, 2010
To their credit, this is a pretty respectful statement of disagreement; far more respectful than NOM or Liberty Council.
Jeff
August 4th, 2010
The only good thing about the Mormon church is the canning classes!
jeff
August 4th, 2010
Scott:
I don’t see why you would have a problem with the LDS statement that we should have mutual respect and civility.
Your reaction to the statement betrays the very reason why we need to promote mutual respect and civility. Yes, even with people that see things differently than you.
We need to send you back to kindergarten to learn some manners.
Matt
August 4th, 2010
I just have to giggle whenever the LDS start talking about one man and one woman. They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into monogamy, under threat of Federal law.
cowboy
August 4th, 2010
Oh and now Senator Orrin Hatch is chiming in. Of course, he’s worried his constituents might do to him in 2012 as just what they did to his fellow Mormon Congressman Bennett this year. So, he panders to the tea-bagging Mormons in his adopted home state.
Sen. Hatch: It’s not “making up the Constitutionâ€. You’re a lawyer. You know better.
And you know there was just a few million voters who voted AGAINST Proposition 8. So don’t lord over the 7 million figure too much.
It was deemed unconstitutional. It will go to the SCOTUS and probably be ruled unconstitutional. But Mr. Hatch, you knew this would happen. That’s why a few years ago you offered to support a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.
I agree, this might be a lesson in Constitutional law that might be worth auditing again, Mr. Hatch, before you go off making public statements.
CPT_Doom
August 4th, 2010
Marriage between a man and a woman is the bedrock of society.
“And we’ve believed that for nearly 2/3 of the time our “church” has been in existence.”
I’m assuming “mutual respect and civility” still leaves room for a little snarkiness.
Mark F.
August 4th, 2010
“Marriage between a man and a woman is the bedrock of society.”
Hmm, they don’t say one man and one woman. Brigham Young had a marriage between a man and a woman—with each of his wives. ;-)
cd
August 4th, 2010
“There is no doubt that today’s ruling will add to the marriage debate in this country, and we urge people on all sides of this issue to act in a spirit of mutual respect and civility toward those with a different opinion.â€
“When engaging your adversaries, that (genteel) approach has its place. But it’s worth saying that there are other approaches and other places. Among them–respectfully administering the occasional reminder as to the precise nature of the motherf*ckers you are dealing with.” – Ta-Nahisi Coates
John in the Bay Area
August 4th, 2010
The mormons have shown no respect and no civility to gay and lesbian Americans, working as hard as they can to deny us equal rights, equal protection and equal benefits before the law. That gay and lesbian Americans have not called for mormons to be denied the right to marriage, the right to Social Security survivor benefits, and all the other rights and priviledges accorded to legally wedded couples is far more civility than they have every shown towards us.
As for jeff’s comment about kindergarten, kindergarten is often a place where people first run into bullies. The mormon church is an incredibly arrogant bully that should be called on their bigotry, hate and discrimination at every opportunity.
They deny us our rights, then try to dictate how we should respond to their despicable actions and lies. The mormon church truely has no shame.
Scott
August 4th, 2010
Jeff,
I’ve watched Mormons lie, cheat and steal to get their way and hurt my family.
I also grew up next to several Mormon families and watched them preach one thing and do another.
When I say they can suck it, I mean it. I also mean that some of them already did when I was growing up (and now they’re married with kids). They also sucked down more booze than the “bad” kids I grew up with.
Don’t tell me how I should feel about this bunch of milk drinking cheese eaters.
Mark F.
August 5th, 2010
I have no respect for people who tell obvious lies to support their position.
customartist
August 5th, 2010
Lotta cash, which could have fed the poor, and what did the Holy Mormon Church do……? Pissed it away!
Just wait until a vote to withhold the rights of a Mormon comes around and I will SELL MY HOUSE and contribute the proceeds to that cause.
cowboy
August 5th, 2010
Scott,
You could replace “Mormon†with “Jews†in your comment and you would probably get cited by BTB.  So, generalizations like that is not helpful.Â
Â
I drink a tall glass of 2% each morning and I had a handful of curd (squeaky cheese) last night.  I can’t tell you what you think of me.  (/rhetorical)Â
Jonathan
August 5th, 2010
I feel like they’ve been much more reserved since the whole debacle about funding prop 8 in the first place. This doesn’t qualify as histrionics by any measure. They didn’t even use the phrase ‘activist judge.’
Still bigots, but I think they’ve started to learn how quickly your church dies when it entangles itself in politics- especially on the side you know is on the wrong side of history. I bet a church like that keeps pretty careful records of membership. Maybe they saw a sharp decline in revenues when they became ‘Republican Party- Mormon branch’?
B John
August 5th, 2010
Is it just me, or shouldn’t the Mormons jus STFU about marriage and how it’s between a man and a woman? I did notice their statement doesn’t say between “one” man and “one” woman like everyone else’s statement.
Please, having the Mormons lecture about protecting the “traditional” institution of marriage is like having a Catholic Priest do a sermon condemning pedophilia. Just doesn’t seem to have much moral authority.
“Please don’t throw me into the briar patch.”
Scott P.
August 5th, 2010
Jonathan, not likely! In order to remain in good standing a Mormon is REQUIRED to tithe ten percent of their gross income. And the close connection of the LDS Church goes back to the mid-sixties, and during that time the Church’s membership has nearly doubled.
But the black eye they got did a lot to make them more circumspect about their overt political behavior. Bigotry is bad for conversion rates.
jeff
August 5th, 2010
Scott and others,
I appreciate that there are many people on both sides of this debate who are susceptible to the “ugly caricature” line of political discourse. Many of the comments here appeal to ugly caricatures of mormons that don’t reflect the sincerity of the mormons I know, however misguided you think they may be.
Such comments tend to get many pats on the back when you are surrounded by people who think like you. You may even run home from work and proudly tell your S.O., “Honey you’d be so proud of me! I nailed the mormons on a blog comment today!”
However it is not helpful to those of us who have spent considerable time reasoning out the arguments for each side and have found some degree of merit to both.
We come to sites like this (referred by google) to see the reaction of others. While I tend not to draw overly broad conclusions as a result of random snarky comments on random blogs, my (unscientific) impression is that the pro gay marriage side has proven itself more willing to resort to ugly caricatures of their opponents, and even worse, to act on it.
I don’t know all mormons, but I know many. I haven’t heard a single one say, “Gay people lie cheat and steal to hurt my family.” I don’t think I’ve ever heard one use the word “hate” or “bigotry” when talking about pro gay marriage supporters or gay people. This is my first time here, but I’m getting the impression those phrases are par for the course here.
Earlier behavior taken against mormons and others, both well known (vandalism against their houses of worship) and less well known (flyers passed around my city’s high school encouraging acts of retribution against specific underage mormon individuals) caused me to re-examine my thinking. Not because stupid actions taken by stupid people should affect the “right” answer, but because I found it hard to align myself with a movement that encouraged its proponents to such actions.
Scott while your comment served its purpose in letting me know how strongly you feel, and I respect the depth of your feelings on the issue, I don’t respect the way you express it.
Scott P.
August 5th, 2010
Jeff, why do you think you haven’t heard Mormons say their rights were stolen? Could it be because they weren’t? It wasn’t a vote on their marriages, or their status, it was a vote on ours! If you do something to harm another person, just because of who that person is, then you ARE being hateful, and you ARE being a bigot. As to the vandalism and those reprehensible flyers, those are illegal acts, criminal in nature and should be treated as such. Certain Mormons went so far, upon hearing their leadership call them to action, as to take out second mortgages and raid their children’s college funds to help finance a campaign based on lies and distortions of the truth. And when those lies and distortions were exposed STILL obeyed their Prophet and his cronies and lied and distorted to “protect’ Holy Matrimony from us nasty homosexuals. Now you’re taking umbrage because some of us are doing a little name calling? C’mon, after some of the names I was called growing up in Salt Lake City (not to mention being assaulted by church-going-Mormons), they’ve endured damned little.
Timothy Kincaid
August 5th, 2010
Jeff,
Can you kindly tell us where? Because while you claim that this is “well known”, I don’t know of it.
Kindly provide a source. We don’t allow for commentary to be based on rumor or unsubstantiated accusation.
Timothy Kincaid
August 5th, 2010
Scott,
You may think that respect and civility went out the window a long time ago, but they still live strong here at BTB.
So let’s try and make comments with that in mind, okay? As you’ve demonstrated, you’re amply capable of making your points without veering into incivility.
jeff
August 5th, 2010
Scott,
I don’t have a problem with your feelings on the matter. I do have a problem with the way the words “hate” and “bigot” get thrown around these days. Someone is not “hateful” or “bigoted” because they harm another person. Someone is “hateful” or “bigoted” because of their state of mind.
I have been mugged twice in my life. In both cases the muggers harmed me. I have never believed they were “hateful” or “bigoted” toward me. I believe they acted for other reasons, namely to relieve me of my property. Their actions were seriously misguided and I wish they would have made a different choice. Yet they were not “hateful” or “bigoted.”
You might stretch your mind and consider that people who think differently than you may have reasons other than “hate” or “bigotry.” You would still be free to disagree with those reasons.
Scott P.
August 5th, 2010
Jeff, there are two different Scotts here, please don’t confuse us. And since the people assaulting me were using words like “fag”, “cocksucker’ and corn-holer” I think I can be pretty sure, (since I wasn’t robbed and this happened in high school and I knew these boys) that they were driven by homophobia and anti-gay animus.
Scott P.
August 5th, 2010
Oh, and if someone relieves you of your constitutional rights because of who you are, then yes, they ARE being bigoted and hateful, there is NO way around that.
Timothy Kincaid
August 5th, 2010
Jeff,
Those who supported and funded Proposition 8 were more than clear about their state of mind.
This was a proposition which was planned, promoted, discussed, written, and written about in terms of denying gay people the right to marry. None of the Pro-8 ads were about the association of marriage to childbirth – though they tried to make that claim in court.
Rather, every single solitary ad was in opposition to gay people marrying. Straight folk were never mentioned, only gay folk. It did not take long for the gay community to figure out the state of mind of those who were demeaning them and trying to make them out as scary and a threat.
Let’s not play games, okay?
John in the Bay Area
August 5th, 2010
jeff,
Are you part of the mormon group that monitors posts about mormons on the internet and then posts comments to defend the mormons?
I find it highly unlikely that a non-mormon would devote himself to using google to find posts about mormons so that he can encourage posters not to call the mormons on their hatred, bigotry and discrimination.
If mormons do not want to be called bigots, perhaps they should abandon their bigotry. That would be far more effective than you trying to tell us what we can and cannot say about a group that has worked about as hard as any in the country to deny gay and lesbian Americans equal rights and equal benefits in this country.
Timothy Kincaid
August 5th, 2010
Actually, Jeff,
we don’t have to debate the motivations. We just had a court case in which there was ample evidence and testimony provided.
It was proven in a court of law that animus was the motivation for Proposition 8.
jeff
August 5th, 2010
Hi Timothy,
I appreciate your and cowboy’s comment for civility on this board. I tend not to hang around anywhere without it, so please take it as a good sign that I feel I can lurk around for a while.
I thought the vandalism was well known. I tried “proposition 8 mormon church vandalism” (without quotes) in google and found several articles.
I would stress that individuals that engage in behavior such as targeted vandalism generally represent a minority of any movement. I believe it to be the case here. I found it troublesome more because it was not widely denounced by the press or the mainstream of the movement for which it purported to act.
As for the other, I am personally familiar with the high school flyer situation as one of the named individuals was an acquaintance. I do a fair amount of volunteer work at the high school in question. However I am not aware that it was reported on.
jeff
August 5th, 2010
No John, I’m not part of that group. I found this board either via a link on the front page of google news or by googling “prop 8 decision” yesterday afternoon. I believe it was the former.
jeff
August 5th, 2010
Scott P,
I didn’t realize there were two Scotts. Sorry for the confusion.
Scott P.
August 5th, 2010
jeff, since there has been no prosecution of said vandalisms there is no justifiable way to attribute them to gay people or their supporters, as far as it goes we could say it was the local LDS bishops who damaged their own stake-houses in order to claim martyrdom. As to the flyers, we only have your word for them existing, please provide a source for them, or some proof they were posted by gay people in an attempt to provoke violence against the targets.
Scott P.
August 5th, 2010
And, jeff, just curious, ARE you LDS?
Timothy Kincaid
August 5th, 2010
Jeff,
Did you actually look at those articles? If you do, you’ll see that the “vandalism” is virtually non-existent.
Wikipedia list this:
I have not been able to identify the Bash Back claims, so it may have just been bluster. So we have one documented incident. One.
So I am now going to ask you to retract your statement. Further, I’ll ask you to admit that the reason it was not widely denounced is because it did not widely happen.
As for your anecdotal story about the high school, we know nothing about it. So until I learn the full details, I’ll not be accepting it as indicative of anything. But if gay people or gay supporters targeted anyone for bullying, I without hesitation denounce bullying.
Scott P.
August 5th, 2010
Timothy, I’ve never heard that anyone actually claimed responsibility for any of the minor vandalism that occurred. Thank you for the information.
John in the Bay Area
August 5th, 2010
Jeff,
Does spending millions of dollars on television ads to accuse gay and lesbian Californians of being a threat to children count as incivility in your book?
These TV ads were far more insulting and incivil than anything that has been directed toward the mormon church for their bigotry, hatred and discrimination.
Perhaps if the mormons spend an equal number of dollars on television ads apologizing for their horribly bigoted and hateful campaign against gay and lesbian Californians, we might have something to work with in terms of reconciliation.
Ben in Oakland
August 5th, 2010
One of the things that doesn’t seem to appear regarding all of this alleged violence, harrassment, and vandalism that the Homosexual Menace has perpetrated on well-meaning, peaceful religious folk who Just Want to Protect Marriage is a list.
We have a list of crimes. I’ve seen the PDF.
What we don’t have is a list of suspects, an indication of the sexual orientations, a list of people arrested for committing these crimes, and finally, a list of people who have been ocnvicted of all of these crimes.
If you don’t have that list, then attributing it to the gay menace is no better than the mormons accusing gay people of being menaces to marirage, family, children, faith, freedom, and education.
cowboy
August 5th, 2010
I will agree that some Mormons have taken some minor vandalism and blown it out of proportion. I had a very heated and a regrettable exchange with a hard-core Mormon about the envelopes that were delivered to Temple Square shortly after November 2008. I was a teeny bit upset when the emergency response vehicles caused a gridlock right at rush-hour but I was mostly upset that I thought it probably was someone angry at the LDS Church for their actions on Proposition 8. It’s just a gut feeling and I have no proof. Either side will only be speculating. But the general consensus among my LDS family and co-workers was that the envelopes with the white powder was probably delivered by some angry gay person. That’s a serious crime.
I saw some pictures of picketers at the Los Angeles LDS Temple. The rally in Salt Lake City with their march around Temple Square was displayed on every news channel. Though it was peaceful, you can appreciate the anger and the defensiveness of some Mormons when they saw that on TV. The same news stories were repeated last night on the local news channels.
Mormons have their chronic anti-Mormon protesters at their Conference Center twice a year. Most people ignore them. The protest only got somewhat “touchy†when someone from the anti-Mormon group took some sacred temple garments and waved them in front of people.
But when the gays protested and marched circling the block, it was unnerving to most Mormons.
That is the reality of when religion bumps into politics. The Mormons were caught off-guard. I can’t believe they did not think there would not be some sort of reaction or consequences after the ballots were counted. A bunch of PR dudes and lawyers were paid handsomely to determine how best to handle this public-relations boo-boo.
That’s when we found the LDS Church stand up in a Salt Lake City Council meeting and publicly say they are for equal rights for gays…as long as it doesn’t deter from their definition of marriage (but that was so nebulous of a ‘condition’ it was laughable).
So, now we have had some conciliatory actions (not just words) from the Utah Legislature last year. We have 7 (seven!) cities in Utah that have enacted ordinances that protect LGBT. In UTAH! Something or someone changed the heart of the big Elephant in the room…and for the good.
I find it remarkable. The change I have seen in just two years. I wholeheartedly agree that we are ready to show our Mormon friends just what kind of people we are. There will be discussions. Mr. Boies is correct too; it’s going to be a battle where we need to educate the ignorant (the ones who won’t even read the court’s opinion on over-turning Proposition 8). Some people want to stay ignorant. Some people are perpetual rabble-rousers.
It’s time to discuss who we are finally. We’re not misfits. We’re not a circus. We don’t spread disease. We’re not after the precious children because we know being gay is not something we can change a person into. And the best solace is knowing we have the truth on our side. Let’s educate them on who we are…really.
Ben in Oakland
August 6th, 2010
Cowboy– as i say repeatedly, the enemy is not the relgiious right. It is the closet.
Comeo ut, come out, wherever you are.
cowboy
August 6th, 2010
Yeah, Ben, I’m tired of having people tell me that just associating with me is enough to cause them to fear for their jobs. The men I do have lunch with are secure in their heterosexuality but god help those who can’t come to grips in even saying “hi†in the hallway for fear they will be associated with a homo.
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