Box Turtle Bulletin

Are we still stoning people to death, what ever happened to the good old days of nailing people to a cross?

JL Hughes

@Rob
I would just like to point out that nailing people to the cross is super bad for the environment. When executing homosexuals, please try to remember that it’s not the earth’s fault that they are gay!
Thanks you-And goodnight! :)

P.S. I’m also curious to know if Ahmed Saad will be opening a Mosque in the Westboro neighbourhood of Topeka…

Throbert McGee

@JL: But what if it’s a rinse-and-reuse modular plastic cross made from recycled soda bottles?

Throbert McGee

On a more serious note, I wonder whether the young author Ahmed Saad is sincere in his recommendation that homosexuals who “refuse to change” should be executed, or if that’s a bone he had to throw to fundamentalist sensibilities so that his work would be publishable at all in Egypt? (And also, perhaps, to avoid being suspected as “one of those types” himself.)

Mihangel apYrs

Throbert
once he uses words such as
“As Sodom and Gomorrahâ€™s homosexuals were executed for failing to heed Godâ€™s words, so should homosexuals be â€˜stoned to death,â€™ as decreed by Islam, if they refuse to change.â€”

he becomes part of the problem, and an enemy (NOT an opponent!) whatever his reason.

Peterson Toscano

In our most recent episode of Queer & Queerer podcast, Zack Ford and I talk about Saad’s book and straight religious folks like Saad (Andrew Miran, Tony Campolo, etc) who speak on behalf of gays and lesbians (they may not have yet discovered bi or trans folk) See http://zackfordblogs.com/2011/01/queer-and-queerer-ep-38-who-made-you-the-drag-queen-of-the-gay-agenda/

When I first read about Saad’s book, I thought, “Ugh, what a piece of work he is. Thanks but not thanks for your help.” But then I got to thinking–I have not read the book. I do not know the culture. While to my ears his words (what little I get through a single news report that has been blogged and commented on) sound offensive and unhelpful, perhaps he is downright subversive and serves to humanize the plight of gays in Egypt.

I cringe when I read Abraham Lincoln’s early words on race in a white society that enslaved humans kidnapped from Africa. He seems offensive and unenlightened. He later proved helpful in the abolition movement.

Ultimately, I guess I will have to wait and see what will become of Saad’s work and evolution as an ally. It’s nice to have an ally. It is great and essential to have one who is informed and willing to learn and grow.

Aaron

Thank you for that contextualizing note, Peterson. It is very shocking to read comments like Saad’s, but it is perhaps a good sign that some sort of conversation is taking place on the plight of homosexuals within Islamic countries.

BlackDog

“Using language that sound as though it could be pulled straight off the Exodus website…”

It probably WAS, I’ve seen Christian and Muslim Fundies copy from each other’s homework before.

L. Junius Brutus

Wow, have Lindoro or Emily not yet informed this man of the fact that Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, love and enlightenment?

Peterson: “I cringe when I read Abraham Lincolnâ€™s early words on race in a white society that enslaved humans kidnapped from Africa. He seems offensive and unenlightened.”

But he wasn’t unenlightened. He was very enlightened in his hatred of slavery. I don’t see how this man is enlightened in any way, especially since what he is advocating is much more harsh than the laws of Egypt. Muburak sometimes throws gay people into prison to appease fundamentalists, but he doesn’t have them murdered, as this man wants. If Mubarak is James Buchanan, this man isn’t Lincoln, he’s Jefferson Davis.

L. Junius Brutus

Poor David Bahati. If only he would say: kill them, but only after giving thm a chance to become ‘ex-gay’.

Emily K

Wow, have Lindoro or Emily not yet informed this man of the fact that Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, love and enlightenment?

LOL I didn’t even need to put out bait for him, though I was still lying in wait. Didn’t take long at ALL for the sad little man stuck in his pro-slavery anti-woman Roman Empire fantasies to come out!

Maybe if he didn’t give Islam so much power over his little [fantasy] life he wouldn’t get so upset about it. Of course I’d get pissed too if the only things I knew about it were things spoon-fed to me by anti-Islam websites that said things I wanted them to say anyway. SPQR!

Emily K

BlackDog, they copy each others’ anti-semitic canards too.

ahmed saad

Shahu started to write my book I was very honest with myself before to be honest with others was lighter than any Aizhaat you accuse me or other gay Banny
This is Emily to connect with you and answer any questions
ahmed012_saad@yahoo.com
Regards
Protect Saad, author of ” shab takaya “

L. Junius Brutus

Emily: “LOL I didnâ€™t even need to put out bait for him, though I was still lying in wait.”

Considering how I consistently give you a horse whipping, I’m glad that you never change your Pickett-like strategy.

“Didnâ€™t take long at ALL for the sad little man stuck in his pro-slavery anti-woman Roman Empire fantasies to come out!”

Ah, looks like Emily finally figured out that the “pederasty”-charge that she was peddling against Rome was nonsense, after it was refuted three times by yours truly. Apparently, you finally managed to memorize the fact that “Rome and Athens are not the same thing.” That’ll be $200 for educating you. And you’re welcome. If we can make similar progress elsewhere, you’ll be well-informed within no time, and I’ll be a billionaire.

“Of course Iâ€™d get pissed too if the only things I knew about it were things spoon-fed to me by anti-Islam websites.”

Sadly, your crystal ball is malfunctioning again. That’ll be another $200.

“SPQR!”

I’ll refund your $400 if you know its component parts and their meaning. And no, no using of your crystal ball when you get it fixed.

L. Junius Brutus

Ahmed Saad: “This is Emily to connect with you and answer any questions”

Hey, I knew you two would like each other.

TROLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Rob

Wow, have Lindoro or Emily not yet informed this man of the fact that Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, love and enlightenment?

That reminds me, this story should be covered on jihadwatch.org. Ahmed Saad should be marked as a ‘person of interest.’

Graham

“I cringe when I read Abraham Lincolnâ€™s early words on race in a white society that enslaved humans kidnapped from Africa. He seems offensive and unenlightened. He later proved helpful in the abolition movement.

Ultimately, I guess I will have to wait and see what will become of Saadâ€™s work and evolution as an ally. Itâ€™s nice to have an ally. It is great and essential to have one who is informed and willing to learn and grow.”

Look, maybe the mid-east and other developing countries don’t need to go through this transitional phase of “it’s a disease” before they finally get real. Maybe a better strategy would be to be bold…why accept half a loaf?

Priya Lynn

It floors me that anyone is referring to Saad as an ally. Anyone who says gays must convert or die most certainly isn’t an ally.

Priya Lynn

Peterson said â€œI cringe when I read Abraham Lincolnâ€™s early words on race in a white society that enslaved humans kidnapped from Africa. He seems offensive and unenlightened.â€

Junius replied “But he wasnâ€™t unenlightened. He was very enlightened in his hatred of slavery.”.

He was certainly unenlightened in many ways:

â€œI am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever FORBID the two races living together on terms of social and political equality.â€

Throbert McGee

Throbert
once he uses words such as
â€œAs Sodom and Gomorrahâ€™s homosexuals were executed for failing to heed Godâ€™s words, so should homosexuals be â€˜stoned to death,â€™ as decreed by Islam, if they refuse to change.â€â€

he becomes part of the problem, and an enemy (NOT an opponent!) whatever his reason.

Mmmmaybe. But did you read the full Jerusalem Post story, which gives a more nuanced picture of Saad? (And also goes into some detail about publishing a gay-sympathetic book in

To be blunt, I think the JP reporter half suspects that Saad might be a pro-gay homosexual man who goes about in anti-gay drag* as his way of subverting the system, but doesn’t want to raise this possibility too directly. (For fear of blowing Saad’s cover just in case the reporter’s suspicion is correct.)

* [In other words, the exact opposite of how Saad outwardly presents himself — as a non-gay person who temporarily went “under cover” by pretending to be gay in order to research the book. –Th.M.]

But anyway, read the JP story and draw your own interpretation. It’s possible that Saad really is a self-loathing ex-gay who sometimes sneaks into gay enclaves for “research purposes,” wink-wink nudge-nudge. But since he’s operating in a cultural mileau that’s extremely different from what we’re familiar with in the contemporary U.S., I don’t want to jump to conclusions about what his motives are.

Throbert McGee

It floors me that anyone is referring to Saad as an ally.

You give every impression of being someone who is very easily floored.

Throbert McGee

Look, maybe the mid-east and other developing countries donâ€™t need to go through this transitional phase of â€œitâ€™s a diseaseâ€ before they finally get real.

I would point out that one of the various rationales for the invasion of Iraq was that the Iraqi people would be falling head over heels in their rush to embrace “Western style” secularized democracy just as soon as Saddam was taken out of the picture.

And we all know how THAT turned out.

Throbert McGee

Oops… had an unfinished thought when I hit “Post” (the blizzard conditions here are causing brownouts, and I was getting nervous about losing the whole post):

But did you read the full Jerusalem Post story, which gives a more nuanced picture of Saad? (And also goes into some detail about publishing a gay-sympathetic book in

The sentence was supposed to continue with:

“…publishing a gay-sympathetic book in Egypt, and in the Arabic language, with all the difficulties entailed. The full JP story gives the impression that Saad’s book is only the SECOND of its kind in Egypt — and possibly the very first in Egypt that’s framed in a clearly Muslim POV, since the only previous book expressing gay-tolerant themes was overtly secular.”

Priya Lynn

Throbert said “You give every impression of being someone who is very easily floored.”.

Your impressions bear no resemblance to reality as is clear from your comments about Saad.

careful, Throbert, you’ll get Priya Lynn revved up and wielding her infamous comments strategy at you.

Throbert McGee

the full Jerusalem Post story, which gives a more nuanced picture of Saad

Though now that I think about it, one cultural nuance that the story doesn’t delve into is: What exactly does Saad mean by “gay” or “homosexual” (or whatever term he is using in “the elevated standard of colloquial [Arabic]” that he speaks)?

In his mind, are these terms interchangeable with “MSM”, or do they designate a particular subcategory within the larger group of “Males who have Sex with Males”?

The book’s translated title, “Pillow Boy,” suggests a mindset that equates MSMs with pederasts, despite the reality that adult men who preferentially seek out teenage boys are only a small group within the larger MSM population.

Yet the JP reporter interprets the “Pillow Boy” title as deliberately ironic, and understands that Saad himself does not believe this particular stereotype, regardless of how unenlightened Saad’s overall views may be.

L. Junius Brutus

Priya: “He was certainly unenlightened in many ways:”

Considering the fact that American society, back then, was 98-99% racist, Lincoln was remarkably enlightened. Therefore, his opinions on the issue of race do not bother me at all, especially considering the fact that the whole reason he went back into politics was to work against the extension of slavery.

Was he a racist by our standards? Of course. But even his views on race were rather enlightened in his own day. For example, his antagonist Douglas (a fairly moderate figure) argued that the Declaration of Indepedence did not apply to blacks.

Thorbert: “You give every impression of being someone who is very easily floored.”

Maybe, or maybe not, but in this case, she had every right to be floored. Anyone who would regard a “convert or die”-character, who is advocating for harsher laws than his country already has, as an ally, is extremely delusional.

L. Junius Brutus

Emily: “careful, Throbert, youâ€™ll get Priya Lynn revved up and wielding her infamous comments strategy at you.”

Despite disagreeing with her on almost everything, I find her to be more rational and reasonable than you are – by a long shot. So remember something about glass houses…

Throbert McGee

Anyone who would regard a â€œconvert or dieâ€-character, who is advocating for harsher laws than his country already has, as an ally, is extremely delusional.

(1) The Qur’an (Sura 7:80-84) unambiguously cites male homosexuality as the sin for which “Lot’s people” (i.e., Sodom and Gomorrah) were destroyed. On the other hand, the exhortations for Muslims to put homosexuals to death are not in the Qur’an itself, but are among the “authentic sayings of Muhammad” collected in the hadiths.

(2) Saad lives in a society where even the appearance of “apostasy from Islam” can bring violent harassment and death threats from would-be lynch mobs. (Although Egyptian civil law is not quite so backwards.)

(3) Either denying that the Qur’an and/or Muhammad called homosexuality a crime worthy of death, or suggesting that Qur’an and/or Muhammad were morally wrong to say this, is de facto apostasy.

Given these facts, it’s hard to know whether Saad said what he said because he actually believes it, or because some Islamist blowhard put him on the spot with “I double-dog-dare you to go on public record that our beloved Prophet (PBUH) and the Holy Qur’an are in error.”

And there’s nothing “delusional” about recognizing these complexities.

Priya Lynn

Emily, what you accuse me of describes your comments strategy perfectly – what a hypocrite you are.

L. Junius Brutus

Thorbert: “(1) The Qurâ€™an (Sura 7:80-84) unambiguously cites male homosexuality as the sin for which â€œLotâ€™s peopleâ€ (i.e., Sodom and Gomorrah) were destroyed. On the other hand, the exhortations for Muslims to put homosexuals to death are not in the Qurâ€™an itself, but are among the â€œauthentic sayings of Muhammadâ€ collected in the hadiths.

(2) Saad lives in a society where even the appearance of â€œapostasy from Islamâ€ can bring violent harassment and death threats from would-be lynch mobs. (Although Egyptian civil law is not quite so backwards.)

(3) Either denying that the Qurâ€™an and/or Muhammad called homosexuality a crime worthy of death, or suggesting that Qurâ€™an and/or Muhammad were morally wrong to say this, is de facto apostasy.”

Apparently, you aren’t listening. Hasn’t Emily already told you that Islam is a religion of peace and love? If some Muslims are anti-gay, then they are misinterpreting Islam, and if the Koran is anti-gay, then Muhammad misinterpreted Islam. Maybe he was spoon-fed those things by anti-Islam websites.

Regardless, even if what you say is true, then he is so thorougly compromised that he can’t be considered an ally. What use is a ‘secret’ ally who publicly advocates for people to kill you? So yes, it’s rather delusional.

Priya Lynn

Throbert, there’s nothing complex about someone who says gays must go through a fake conversion or be put to death. Anyone who thinks such a person is an ally is messed up beyond my ability to comprehend.

Erin

Sometimes I’m amazed at the personal attacks that go on on this comment thread between pro-gay folks who are on the same side. Enough is enough already. Play nice!

Throbert McGee

Regardless, even if what you say is true, then he is so thorougly compromised that he canâ€™t be considered an ally.

Well, perhaps.

But you know who would be even MORE “compromised”?

An Egyptian Muslim author who publicly argued that Muhammad was in error to call for the execution of homosexuals.

And he’d be “compromised” because the more moderate among his coreligionists would react by immediately putting their hands over their ears and going “Tra-la-la, I can’t hear you!” In other words, if Saad had written and said what everyone here prefers that he say, the rosiest outcome would be that the book was politely ignored by Egyptian Muslims — the very audience whose minds Saad hopes to change. (And that’s the optimistic scenario.)

It’s important to remember that Exodus (and its quasi-secular counterpart NARTH) come in for extremely robust criticism in American media, both in popular and academic presses — in fact, over the past few decades there have probably been the proverbial “hundreds if not thousands” of books challenging and repudiating Exodus’s fraudulent claims. (Even if you limit the scope ONLY to conservative religious publishing houses, Exodus’s “pray away the gay” approach gets some criticism along with praise.) And it’s been a long, long time in American society since any author would have been putting himself at personal risk by challenging what Exodus says.

But to repeat what I said above, Ahmed Saad’s book is virtually unprecedented in the history of Egyptian publishing. And if you consider that Mostafa Fathi’s novel In the Country of Boys (which only appeared in 2009, and had to be self-published) was secular in tone and thereby avoided the problem of directly criticizing the Quran or Muhammad, then Saad’s book may be totally without precedent in the context of Egypt — it’s truly the first of its kind in its own country.

Priya Lynn

Throbert, if you think Saad is an ally I suggest you deliver yourself to him and see how that works out for you. If you survive come back (if you can) and tell us then whether or not you think he’s an ally or an enemy.

Apparently, you arenâ€™t listening. Hasnâ€™t Emily already told you that Islam is a religion of peace and love? If some Muslims are anti-gay, then they are misinterpreting Islam, and if the Koran is anti-gay, then Muhammad misinterpreted Islam. Maybe he was spoon-fed those things by anti-Islam websites.

Exactly! the same things happen in Christianity and Judaism. Glad you finally “get it.” Otherwise, organizations like these couldn’t exist: http://www.al-bab.com/arab/background/gay.htm

Likewise, though the Catholic church has called accepting one’s sexual orientation as normal as being a sin as bad as child molestation by priests, organizations such as Dignity can still exist.

And while the very powerful Haredi sect in Israel can hold power over the government and demand that Jerusalem “not become Sodom,” there still exists a prominent gay communicty in Tel Aviv, and even Jerusalem pride events.

ooh, this site’s pretty cool too. http://www.glas.org/ahbab/

L. Junius Brutus

Thorbert: “An Egyptian Muslim author who publicly argued that Muhammad was in error to call for the execution of homosexuals.”

It hasn’t even been established that he was asked to comment on that issue, and that he did not simply volunteer it.

“And heâ€™d be â€œcompromisedâ€ because the more moderate among his coreligionists would react by immediately putting their hands over their ears and going â€œTra-la-la, I canâ€™t hear you!â€”

Considering that he argues for the murder of gay people, that might not be a bad thing.

“But to repeat what I said above, Ahmed Saadâ€™s book is virtually unprecedented in the history of Egyptian publishing. And if you consider that Mostafa Fathiâ€™s novel In the Country of Boys (which only appeared in 2009, and had to be self-published) was secular in tone and thereby avoided the problem of directly criticizing the Quran or Muhammad, then Saadâ€™s book may be totally without precedent in the context of Egypt â€” itâ€™s truly the first of its kind in its own country.”

It is not clear to me what this has to do with “Koran or Muhammad”, since he is not saying anything about them – except that he agrees with them in calling for cold-blooded murder. He could just as easily have omitted them and made his own work as “secular in tone” as the other one.

L. Junius Brutus

Emily: “Exactly! the same things happen in Christianity and Judaism. ”

The same what? The fact of the matter is that Jesus never told his followers to do evil (quite the contrary), whereas Muhammad told his followers to do innumerable evil things. And they do. I guess Muslims are misinterpreting their religion, because they do not ask Emily whether she approves of their actions (in which case it is a ‘right’ interpretation of Islam) or not (in which case they are wrongly interpreting their own religion).

“Likewise, though the Catholic church has called accepting oneâ€™s sexual orientation as normal as being a sin as bad as child molestation by priests,”

One or two nutty bishops, I’m sure. The Catholic Church as an institution holds no such position. On the other hand, you can marry 6-year old girls in Islam and have sex with them when they are 9 (like the ‘prophet’ did), you can marry 4 women (or 4 6-year old girls), but you can’t be gay, you can’t have premarital sex, you can’t convert to another religion (without staying alive, anyway).

“And while the very powerful Haredi sect in Israel can hold power over the government and demand that Jerusalem â€œnot become Sodom,â€ there still exists a prominent gay communicty in Tel Aviv, and even Jerusalem pride events.”

And the ayatollahs in Iran, do they oppose the prominent gay community in Qom, or Tehran pride events?

Graham

“The same what? The fact of the matter is that Jesus never told his followers to do evil (quite the contrary),”

Jesus was not the be all and end all of Christianity. There has been popes, kings, ‘saints’, Martin Luther, Pat Robertson, and many others who have told and do tell their followers to do evil for their religion.

“One or two nutty bishops, Iâ€™m sure. The Catholic Church as an institution holds no such position.”

Well maybe that’s not what the PR department of the Catholic Church has said, but I’ve spoken to many Christian apologists, including Catholics, and when I bawk at them comparing homosexuality to, for instance murder, they insist that no one sin is worse than another and they are all ‘fruits on the tree of sin”.

Timothy Kincaid

Graham,

what I suspect they actually tell you is that all sins are equal, those as heinous as murder or as benign as gossip. It is you who chooses to link homosexuality and murder rather than homosexuality and gossip, not the Church.

(this is not some endorsement of Catholic theology, but rather a desire that we not speak foolishly and illustrate our ignorance)

L. Junius Brutus

Graham: “Jesus was not the be all and end all of Christianity. There has been popes, kings, â€˜saintsâ€™, Martin Luther, Pat Robertson, and many others who have told and do tell their followers to do evil for their religion. ”

No kidding. But unless you think that what Pat Robertson does and says actually changes the essence of the religion (as opposed to how it’s practiced by his followers), Jesus (and the apostles) are the be all and end all of Christianity.

“Well maybe thatâ€™s not what the PR department of the Catholic Church has said, but Iâ€™ve spoken to many Christian apologists, including Catholics, and when I bawk at them comparing homosexuality to, for instance murder, they insist that no one sin is worse than another and they are all â€˜fruits on the tree of sinâ€.”

Don’t. Instead, compare it to premarital sex and divorce (and if they object, they are hypocrites). That basically removes the sting of their argument, because they can’t possibly hold that 97% of people are actually as bad as murderers, even if they intellectually (used in a technical sense) try to hold on to that belief.

Graham

“No kidding. But unless you think that what Pat Robertson does and says actually changes the essence of the religion (as opposed to how itâ€™s practiced by his followers), Jesus (and the apostles) are the be all and end all of Christianity.”

Well wouldn’t Pat Robertson claim that he is the one who is being true to the essence of the religion, and people who say that he is wrong are simply revisionists who want to pervert scripture to fit their own politically-correct liberal agenda?

“Donâ€™t. Instead, compare it to premarital sex and divorce (and if they object, they are hypocrites). That basically removes the sting of their argument, because they canâ€™t possibly hold that 97% of people are actually as bad as murderers, even if they intellectually (used in a technical sense) try to hold on to that belief.”

Oh, they would say that 97% of people are as bad as murderes. We all have original sin after all. I have no trouble imagining them saying that.

L. Junius Brutus