Box Turtle Bulletin

HIV test results in one minute

The FDA has approved an HIV testing kit that gives results in one minute. The highly accurate (99.8%) test involves a finger prick, three solution process that gives results about as easy to understand as a pregnancy test (one blue dot, negative; two blue dots, positive).

I remember when test results took weeks – long, long weeks – and still now it can be an agonizing twenty minutes even for those who have no real reason to be concerned. And while there are testing vehicles on the street in West Hollywood every weekend, I’m sure that a 20 minute wait negatively impacts their draw.

But with one-minute responses, I suspect that there will be an increase in those who are willing to be tested and a reduction in the anxiety of those who do.

DADT cloture vote likely on Saturday

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) has invoked cloture on the standalone DADT repeal bill. It will likely come up for a cloture vote tomorrow. Assuming that adequate steps are taken to have all supporters present, cloture is expected to pass, and the bill itself can be presented for a vote.

There are still tactics that those Senators who favor institutionalized anti-gay discrimination can take to be troublesome and difficult, but those tactics are increasingly making them appear desperate and, frankly, motivated by unadmirably personal prejudices.

Opposition to this bill is almost certain to tarnish the reputation of those who are leading the charge. History is not likely to be kind.

A Good Man Tries and Fails

Ron Sider is a prominent evangelical Christian who opposes marriage equality.  He doesn’t seem to be a hateful bigot at all.  I never sense that he was murmuring perverts, perverts, perverts as he typed his recent article, “Bearing Better Witness.”  He’s shown me two things with that piece: First, a reminder that some people who promote discrimination are decent, well-meaning human beings.  And second, even their best-intentioned arguments can’t withstand scrutiny.

Sider begins by arguing there are secular reasons for opposing marriage equality:

Even a state such as ours, which does not use the law to promote or discourage particular religious beliefs, nevertheless has a huge stake in marriage. It is not simply a religious issue. The law is a moral teacher. Most people assume that if something is legal, it is moral—or at least not immoral. What is legal soon will become normal.

That’s both untrue and dangerous.

Really, most people would brand something like self-serving deceit as immoral.  Even a trivial selfish lie betrays someone’s trust.  But while some lies are illegal — fraud, libel, slander, perjury, and the like — most everyday lies are not.   Sorry, I got caught in traffic.  Or, I wasn’t flirting with him. Or, I don’t know who ate the last piece of pie (that one’s egregious in the extreme!).

In fact, you can create a whole catalog of immoral-but-not-illegal acts: Read the rest of this entry »

Anoka-Hennepin School Board to parents concerned about bullying: You’re all liars

The Anoka-Hennepin School Board has a unique approach to the rather serious problem of bullying and suicide in their district: deny that it exists. Although there have been nine student suicides in the past year and significant media coverage of first-hand reports of bullying, the School Board has chosen to set aside testimony from parents and students and instead rely on their paperwork to “discover” that none of the bullied students that killed themselves were bullied.

Monday night’s meeting of the Anoka-Hennepin School Board was a contentious one as the issue of bullying and suicide in the district again came up. The state’s largest school district opened an investigation into the suicides of nine students over the past year — some by students who were allegedly bullied for their sexual orientation — and said that it found no evidence that any of the nine were bullied. Students and parents criticized the district for its statement — at times the conversation devolved to shouting — while district officials said there’s not much they can do if students and parents don’t report incidents to the schools.

No one – not one living person affiliated with these schools who has even the slightest smidgen of honesty and decency – is unaware of the fact that gay kids are being tormented in the Anoka-Hennepin School District. But the School Board seems determined not to know about it. (Minnesota Independent)

Over the last 18 months, the district has been at the heart of the debate over LGBT-bullying. In late 2009, a high-profile investigation by the Minnesota Department of Human Rights found that two teachers in the district conspired to harass a student they thought was gay. The teachers went on leave, and the district paid $25,000 to the student.

Then, in July, the suicide death of gay 15-year-old Anoka student Justin Aaberg sparked an uproar. Parents, teachers and students held a series of press events and gave testimonials before the school board where advocates said that as many of four students took their lives at least in part because of bullying.

Carlson said that these statements by students, staff and parents at school board meetings weren’t truthful based on data from the district’s student services department.

“None of the suicides were connected to incidents of bullying,” said Supt. Dennis Carlson

“As we all try to heal from the pain of these deaths the continuation of inaccurate information is not helpful,” he said. “Once again we have no evidence that bullying played a role in any of our students deaths. In a few instances, people told the school board and district leaders that employees stood by while a student was bullied. These statements are also not true. We have no evidence of that occurring.”

Superintendent Dennis Carlson

Nor are they likely to get “evidence.” Because a policy actively discourages students from reporting bullying based on sexual orientation and teachers from discussing it.

From 1995 until February 2009 (yes, last year), the School Board policy was to ban teachers – including health staff – from referring to homosexuality “as a normal, valid lifestyle.” In 2009, this policy was changed for the better:

“Teaching about sexual orientation is not a part of the District adopted curriculum; rather, such matters are best addressed within individual family homes, churches, or community organizations. Anoka-Hennepin staff, in the course of their professional duties, shall remain neutral on matters regarding sexual orientation including but not limited to student led discussions.”

However, this is still well understood by teachers to continue to mean “don’t talk about this.” Any mention that Michelangelo was homosexual, or Alan Turing, or Harvey Milk, for that matter, was not “neutral.” So rather than risk punishment, teachers are forced to pretend that gay people don’t exist.

But worse, teachers assumed that stepping to stop anti-gay bullying – or even saying that such bullying was bad – was not “neutral” position. And, as Focus on the Family and other anti-gay activist groups have made clear, any opposition to anti-gay bullying is labeled “the homosexual agenda.” Nor did the district’s anti-bullying and anti-harassment policies include any mention of sexual orientation.

All of the discussion about not tormenting gay kids was “best addressed within individual family homes, churches, or community organizations” like the Parents Action League where it can be augmented with such messages as gay people choose to be gay, are pedophiles, are rife with horrible diseases, and die 20 years before good wholesome real people. And besides, the blame for the suicides is “a continuous onslaught of pro-homosexual diversity”, anyway.

So bullying is rampant. And teachers were left with no message from the School Board that they should stop it and a more than subtle hint that they should not get involved.

Nor are students likely to report it themselves. As one teacher told the Independent “any mention of homosexuality is supposed to cause the teacher to make a referral to the counselor or school psychologist.” Rather than be protected, the kid is presumed to need mental health advice.

Finally in October of this year, after fiery denunciations of the Board from the parents of dead children, the Board revised their anti-bullying and anti-harassment policies to list protected classes, including sexual orientation. But they angrily refuse to change the “neutrality” policy that silences any reference to gay people at all.

And the Board has dug in its heels and is absolutely refusing to acknowledge that anti-gay bullying really exists or that it is part of the problem of suicide in their district. The bullied children didn’t fill our the right paperwork, you see, so therefore it didn’t happen.

And that is enough for the Anoka-Hennepin School Board.

Brown backs standalone DADT repeal, assures filibuster proof support

Sen. Scott Brown (R-MA) has announced that now that the tax rate extensions have been resolved, he will support the DADT repeal. (ABC)

Massachusetts Republican Scott Brown today voiced his support for a stand-alone repeal of the military’s Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy, bringing the bill one vote over the 60-vote threshold that it will need to reach if and when the Senate votes on the measure in the coming weeks.

“Sen. Brown accepts the Pentagon’s recommendation to repeal the policy after proper preparations have been completed. If and when a clean repeal bill comes up for a vote, he will support it,” said Brown spokesperson Gail Gitcho.

Now the only thing holding up the repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell is timing. Anti-gay senators may try to run out the clock, but Sen. Lieberman believes that there is enough time even will allowable stalling tactics. We will see whether Sen. Reid will prioritize the DADT repeal and allow it to pass or put it low enough on the agenda that it is killed for at least the next two years.

Civil unions campaign announced in Colorado

Sen. Pat Steadman

Well this announcement came sooner than I was expecting, I crack open my Denver Post app this morning and see “Colorado lawmaker plans to introduce civil-unions bill.” Here’s some excerpts:

Sen. Pat Steadman, D-Denver, said he believes the majority of Coloradans support civil unions and oppose gays being treated unfairly.

Steadman, who is gay, said he expects his proposal to pass the Democratic-controlled Senate, but he’s not sure what kind of reception the idea will get in the Republican-controlled House.

True on both counts, but One Colorado (our new statewide equality group) surveyed the state earlier this year and found a dramatic shift in Coloradans’ opinions on civil unions:

The [2010] poll results show that 72 percent of Coloradans support legal recognition for gay and lesbian couples. This compares to 2006, when 48 percent of Colorado voters supported domestic partnership legislation for gay and lesbian couples.

But Steadman and One Coloardo have their work cut out for them since Republicans hold a slim majority in the House (we have a bicameral assembly). 

For strictly pragmatic reasons I’m hoping Steadman (who’s openly gay and represents the district I live in) will include a “religious protections” clause in our legislation as was recently used in Illinois.  Yes I know the First Amendment already provides these protections but from a publicity standpoint having the wording in the bill really helps diffuse religious hysteria and objection.   Here’s that section from the Illinois bill:

Section 102. Religious Freedom. Nothing in this Act shall be construed to interfere with or regulate religious practice of the many faiths in Illinois that grant the status, sacrament, and blessing of marriage under wholly separate religious rules, practices, or traditions of such faiths. Additionally, nothing in this Act shall be construed as to require any religious body, Indian Nation, Indian Tribe, Native Group, or officiant thereof to solemnize or officiate a civil union or to prohibit any religious body, Indian Nation, Indian Tribe, Native Group, or officiant thereof from solemnizing or officiating a civil union. Any religious body, Indian Nation or Tribe or Native Group or officiant thereof is free to choose whether or not to solemnize and whether or not to officiate civil unions.

I’ve already contacted Steadman to thank him and let him know the Illinois bill is a great model for bipartisanship,  his office contact info can be found here.

Snowe backs DADT repeal

As anticipated, Sen. Olympia Snowe (R-ME) has added herself to the list of those favoring repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. (Press Herald)

“After careful analysis of the comprehensive report compiled by the Department of Defense and thorough consideration of the testimony provided by the Secretary of Defense, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the service chiefs, I support repeal of the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ law,” Snowe said in a statement.

Incidentally, the list of official co-sponsors is now up to 45. That does not include some who, like Sen. Snowe, have expressed intention to support repeal.

House passes standalone DADT repeal

The House of Representatives has just voted to repeal the Military’s anti-gay Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy by a vote of 250 to 175.

Democrats:
235 Yes
15 No
5 Not Voting

Republicans:
15 Yes
160 No
4 Not Voting

Unlike the defense bill, there are no other issues on which to hang one’s vote, and appeals to “not the right time” have the same moral weight as the more blatant “My constituents don’t like gay people.” This is purely a vote on whether gay people should be accorded the same rights as other Americans, and history should take careful note of the names of those who sided with inequality.

The Prada Slippers Aren’t The Only Things Tripping Our Gaydar

A recent public audience with Pope Benedict XVI had some rather, err, compelling entertainment:

Ever notice how rare it is to see the pope smile?

[Via Andrew Sullivan]

House is voting on DADT repeal

The House of Representatives is voting today (actually, kinda now) on the standalone DADT repeal bill.

Watch at C-SPAN

For those who go there immediately, this vote count is for House Resolution 1764, a procedural vote on the rules of the debate.

An Answer to LaBarbera’s Challenge to the SPLC

Peter “Porno Pete” LaBarbera has found himself as a new addition to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s list of anti-gay hate groups, along with the Family “Research” Council and eleven others. In addition to citing the debunked research of Nazi-sympathiser Paul Cameron, LaBarbara was called out by the SPLC several other actions:

In 2007, LaBarbera claimed there was “a disproportionate incidence of pedophilia” among gay men — yet another false assertion. The same year, he posted an open letter to the Lithuanian people from long-time gay-basher Scott Lively (see Abiding Truth Ministries, above), who has made a series of false claims about gays running the German Nazi Party. In the piece posted to the AFTAH website, Lively said homosexuals are trying to take away free speech from all opponents of gays and to silence all religious opinions on the matter.

LaBarbera recently challenged the SPLC to disprove the “disproportionate incidence of pedophilia” claim once more. But experts in the field already have, and we summarized those findings more than five years ago in our report, “Testing The Premise: Are Gays A Threat To Our Children?”  The bottom line is this: The experts agree that there is no evidence whatsoever that gay men and women who are out in their adult lives are any more likely to abuse children than straight men and women.

Another Reason For FRC To Oppose Stem Cell Research

It may hold some promise for curing HIV. An American  patient in Berlin received a stem cell transplant in 2007 in an attempt to cure his leukemia. That transplant, to the surprise of his doctors, also ended up curing him of his HIV infection:

But these were no ordinary stem cells – a mutation found in just one percent of Caucasians in northern and western Europe causes CD4 cells to lack the CCR5 receptor, a receptor necessary for early-stage HIV to infect CD4 immune system cells. People with this mutation are more or less immune to HIV infection.

Those anti-HIV stem cells took root in the Berlin patient and repopulated there. At the same time, the host CD4 cells that hadn’t been destroyed in chemotherapy and radiation completely disappeared. After 38 months, doctors still couldn’t find HIV infection in the Berlin patient – in other words, it seems by all measures that his HIV has been cured.

This is still a very unlikely path toward curing AIDS, but it does give scientists several avenues for further investigation. This article explains the patient’s gruelling recovery:

The `Berlin patient`, Timothy Ray Brown, a US citizen who lives in Berlin, was interviewed this week by German news magazine Stern.

His course of treatment for leukaemia was gruelling and lengthy. Brown suffered two relapses and underwent two stem cell transplants, as well as a serious neurological disorder that flared up when he seemed to be on the road to recovery.

The neurological problem led to temporary blindness and memory problems. Brown is still undergoing physiotherapy to help restore his coordination and gait, as well as speech therapy.

Friends have noticed a personality change too: he is much more blunt, possibly a disinhibition that is related to the neurological problems.

On being asked if it would have been better to live with HIV than to have beaten it in this way he says “Perhaps. Perhaps it would have been better, but I don’t ask those sorts of questions anymore.”

Scientists are now discussing ways to identify stem cells with the built-in immunity for further research. A group of U.S. scientists have announced that they have received funding to to explore techniques for engineering and introducing CCR5-deficient stem cells.

House to vote on standalone DADT repeal

One of the difficulties that could arise from the Lieberman/Collins effort in the US Senate to vote on a standalone bill to repeal Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell is that the House repeal effort was by means of the defense authorization bill. Now Democratic leader Steny Hoyer and Pennsylvania Democratic Rep. Patrick Murphy are setting about to alleviate that concern. (AP)

A stand-alone bill to overturn the military ban on openly gay troops has been introduced by Collins and Lieberman in the hopes that the slimmed-down version would attract fewer objections.

But that bill had been considered a long-shot because any Senate action would require House approval with just days before Congress was to adjourn.

The last-minute House vote would eliminate that concern and put pressure on Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., to keep the Senate in session past this weekend to wrap up any unfinished business.

When we were told that making the repeal part of the defense bill was the only way to get it passed, I supported that decision. But I particularly like the idea of the standalone; it eliminates the ability of legislators to weasel or claim that it was “other provisions of the bill” that they didn’t support.

UPDATE: WaPo’s Jonathan Capehart adds info about the advantages of this bill.

The beauty of Hoyer’s move is that, once passed, the bill would go over to the Senate as a privileged motion. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) would be compelled to move on it. Another good reason? The privileged motion allows the time to be cut in half. Only one cloture vote would be necessary to end debate, which should be limited for reasons I’ll address in a second. Then an up-or-down vote would be held. With the chamber having gotten 60 votes to close debate on the bill, a voice vote most likely would be held. The measure would then head to President Obama for his signature.

“Over 28 times more likely to get anal cancer”

When traveling this year, consider the following:

• The second largest weather killer in the United States is a lightning strike.
• You are over 100 times more likely to be hit by lightning in Florida than California.

Makes ya think, doesn’t it? Perhaps vacation should be at Disneyland rather than Disney World.

But would it help you put things in perspective if you knew that the odds of getting struck by lightning in the US are about 1 in 500,000 and that only 40 to 50 people per year are killed here by a lightning strike? When you know the facts, then all of the above ceases to give you concern and instead you feel manipulated.

Keeping that in mind, look at the following condom awareness psa being aired by New York City:

When you get HIV, it’s never just HIV. You’re at a higher risk to get dozens of diseases, even if you take medications. Like osteoporosis, a disease that dissolves your bones; and dementia, a condition that causes permanent memory loss; and you’re over 28 times more likely to get anal cancer. It’s never just HIV. Stay HIV free. Always use a condom.

Scary!!

But is it true? And, as importantly, is it in perspective?

Osteoporosis is directly related to bone mineral density (BMD) and it is the measurement of BMD that is used to identify and – more or less – define who has or does not have osteoporosis and likely future fractures. And it is, indeed, true that HIV positive persons have higher rates of both osteoporosis and osteopenia (a similar but less sever condition). The reasons are, at present, undetermined.

So, yes it is fair and accurate to warn that HIV can, on average, increase one’s likelihood of osteoporosis (as can being a short white woman). And this condition is common enough that an increase in incidence is material and worthy of discussion.

But it’s not quite all of the story. The handsome young man whose bones were dissolving before our eyes is rather unlikely to have osteoporosis for decades, if ever. Osteoporosis (which primarily effects those over 50) is fairly easy to both treat and forestall, so this young man may need to take extra precautions (e.g. adequate calcium and vitamin D) but he is not going to wake up one morning and find that his skeleton has dissolved to soup.

Dementia is more common in people with HIV than without. Indeed, before HAART, dementia was a common consequence of HIV infection and was often the first qualification for an AIDS diagnosis. Currently it is less common, but still a major concern, especially as HIV infected persons age. (caregiver.org)

Before the arrival of highly active anti-retroviral therapy (HAART) in the second half of the 1990s, estimates of the percentage of people with AIDS who would develop HAD ranged as high as two-thirds. Many specialists, however, believed that the true figure was closer to 20 to 30 percent. More recently, experts have estimated that less than 10 percent of people on HAART develop HAD. However, because people with HIV are living longer than ever before, a greater number could ultimately develop the disorder, perhaps in its milder forms.

So far, I don’t necessarily quibble with accuracy of the psa, though the imagery suggests that these possible consequences are likely to be onset in early life, a false implication. But now let’s turn to one of my pet peeves, the ooky-spooky (and mostly bogus) anal cancer scare.

Yes, anal cancer exists. And yes it has higher rates in gay men than straight and even higher in HIV positive men. But the inclusion of anal cancer as a “higher risk” and the “28 times more likely” language tells me that this psa has no credibility whatsoever. It is not designed to inform, but to frighten.

The anal cancer scare is a favorite tactic of anti-gay activists. And it is irresponsible and immoral behavior when they seek to demonize gay men by claims that “”homosexuality is by its very nature dangerous to those who practice it.” It is no less irresponsible and immoral to use this scare tactic in the advance of a noble cause like encouraging condom use.

Anal cancer is very rare. In the US, about 5,260 people per year get this disease, of which about 40% are men (so, as you can see, women are 50% more likely to get anal cancer. Beware!!). About 720 patients die. Anal cancer is highly associated with HPV infection (though the vast majority of those infected with the HPV virus never develop anal cancer) and a vaccine is available which eliminates this risk factor.

Gay men, who are more likely to have become infected with HPV in their anus than are heterosexuals, experience anal cancer incidence of about 35 in 100,000. HIV infected persons, as are other persons with a suppressed immune system, are more likely to develop this cancer, but we still are talking tiny tiny numbers, maybe around one tenth of one percent.

Yes, HIV seroconversion is a life-changing experience. While most HIV positive people live relatively the same life as HIV negative people, there are more risks, rules, and precautions. Drug regimens must be adhered to, lifestyle choices have to be made, and health complications of some sort are almost unavoidable.

There are, indeed, many many good reasons to avoid infection with HIV. But fear of anal cancer is not one of them.

I support the dissemination of information that clarifies and warns about avoidable health risks. But I do not support bogus fear tactics that seek to deceive and manipulate, even if the goal is admirable. And this psa is one of the most deceptive manipulation tactics that I’ve seen.

And we cannot blithely suggest that the end justifies the means, when there are real victims of this false impression of HIV. This psa stigmatizes HIV positive persons in ways that are unnecessary and cruel. Viewers leave with the impression that HIV positive persons are about to fall over dead or go stark-raving mad.

And, in the mind of many, the ails of HIV positive people reflect on gay people as a whole. Psa’s that warn of dementia or anal cancer in HIV infected persons translate to many viewers that gay people are diseased and insane. We all, HIV positive and HIV negative alike suffer the consequences of such presentation.

And, besides, they are wrong. Yes, most people with the virus will also have other issues that result. But it is not true that “It’s never just HIV.” For some few, an HIV infection will not result in any medical consequences. I can’t say exactly how many, but it may be more than those who get anal cancer.

GLAAD and Gay Men’s Health Crisis have joined forces to ask the city to pull the ad. I wholeheartedly agree.

Uganda Government Blocks Film Depicting LGBT Human Rights Workers

Uganda's Ethics and Integrity Minister James Nsaba Buturo

Uganda’s Minister of Ethics and Integrity James Nsaba Buturo yesterday blocked the showing of a documentary film, claiming that organizers intended to “promote homosexuality,” according to Uganda’s largest independent newspaper Daily Monitor. Organizers had intended to show the film at the National Theatre in central Kampala, but found the theater locked when they arrived for the event. The film, appropriately, portrays the difficulties that human rights workers encounter in fighting discrimination in the country.

The showing was organized by the United Nation Human Rights office of the High Commissioner (UNHR), Uganda Human Rights Commission and Human Rights Centre Uganda. The Uganda Human Rights Commission is an official office of the Ugandan government.

The point of contention is that the film specifically depicted the difficulties in dealing with anti-gay discrimination in Uganda. Buturo took this as being “promotion of homosexuality”:

Mr Buturo told Daily Monitor that the organisers refused to delete homosexual contents in the documentary. “Some people are determined to change the morals of our country and are using all tactics. We shall put up resistance because Uganda doesn’t believe in homosexuality,” he said, adding that 40 pupils were invited to watch the documentary.

“This is terrible. I told those people to shut up because they are supposed to defend our country,” Mr Buturo said.

Buturo strongly supports the proposed Anti-Homosexuality Bill that is now before Parliament. The bill, more famously, provides for the death penalty for LGBT people under certain circumstances and life imprisonment for the rest. If the bill becomes law, another provision would hold the organizers personally liable with fines and imprisonment for five to seven years for trying to show the film.

Buturo's letter demanding the cancellation of a conference to discuss issues affecting sex workers (click to enlarge).

Last month, Buturo ordered a halt to a conference in Entebbe that was organized to discuss the health issues of sex workers and other problems. Noting that prostitution is illegal in Uganda, Buturo apparently seeks to broaden the reach of the law to also include merely discussing issues surrounding prostitution.

Last September, Buturo lost his race in the ruling party’s primary election to represent the Bufumbira East constituency. He lost to former presidential advisor Eddie Kwizera Wa-Gahungu. Buturo charged that his loss was due to massive fraud, and given Uganda’s less than stellar record with elections, there is credible evidence that fraud might have been a factor. Nevertheless, the ruling National Resistance Movement (NRM) demanded that defeated NRM M.P.’s honor the results, which Buturo has refused to do. He is now running as an independent candidate for Bufumbira East. And as we all know, when you’re down in the polls and facing enormous political odds (namely, a ruling party that won’t back you in what is effectively a one-party state), then lashing out against LGBT people is the tactic of choice among those for whom “ethics” and “integrity” have very little meaning.

Chapter 4, paragraph 29 of Uganda’s constitution (PDF: 460KB/192 pages) provides for “freedom of speech and expression which shall include freedom of the press and other media” and the “freedom of thought, conscience and belief which shall include academic freedom in institutions of learning.” The same paragraph also guarantees “freedom to assemble and to demonstrate together with others peacefully and unarmed.” Paragraph 34 also contains an affirmative action clause which reads, “Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution, the State shall take affirmative action in favour of groups marginalised on the basis of gender, age, disability or any other reason created by history, tradition or custom, for the purpose of redressing imbalances which exist against them.” And Paragraph 38 guarantees that “Every Ugandan has a right to participate in peaceful activities to influence the policies of government through civic organisations.” It’s a fine document. Someone should show it to Buturo sometime.