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James Dobson and John MacArthur Have Tested Stigma-Positive

Jim Burroway

June 8th, 2007

We all remember back to just a few days after 9/11 when Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson blamed the terrorists’ actions on homosexuals, among others. According to Falwell, God lifted his veil of protection of America because we embraced all sorts of moral evil. Falwell stood by those remarks just a week before he died.

Now comes word that something terrible is going to happen, and this time it’ll be the lesbians’ fault. Not only that, but the old 1980′s canard of AIDS being the wrath of God is back in all its glory. And all of this comes with James Dobson’s imprimatur.

On the June 4 broadcast of James Dobson’s radio program, he played a recorded sermon by John MacArthur, pastor of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, titled “A Nation Abandoned by God.” Dobson preceded that broadcast with this endorsement:

Some of our listeners are not going to agree with what he [Rev. McArthur] has to say, but it’s going to make you think, and it’s also going to be somewhat disturbing. And I happen to agree with what John MacArthur was saying on this day, and I want to thank him and his team and Woodman Valley Chapel for allowing us to share this message. It needs to be heard, especially at this time in our nation.

And what did Rev. MacArthur preach? Well, first of all, he says we’re lucky we haven’t been smited already:

I don’t believe we’re waiting for God’s wrath in this society. We haven’t had a massive calamity such as the destruction of an entire city. We certainly don’t want that to happen — pray that does not happen — but it could happen. And God would be just in any calamity that he brought upon us. … But this massive concept of the wrath of abandonment, I’m convinced, is now at work in our society.

…The first thing that you look for in a society if you’re trying to discern whether God has abandoned that society is whether or not that society has gone through a sexual revolution so that illicit sex, adultery, every form of immorality is accepted as normal in that society. And we’re there. The second step in the progression, [Romans, chapter 1] verse 26: “God gave them over not just to passions that are explicable,” because they’re men and women, “but to inexplicable, degrading passions. For their women exchange the natural function for that which is unnatural.” You know a society has been abandoned by God when it celebrates lesbian sex.

So there it is. Whenever something goes wrong, we’ll know who to blame. It’s them lesbians.

But MacArthur doesn’t let the guys off the hook either:

The amazing thing of it is this, verse 27: “The men abandoning the natural function of the women, burning in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts, and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.” Right into this wrath of abandonment comes the wrath — the consequential wrath. And even though it generates venereal disease and AIDS, they keep doing it.

AIDS as the consequential wrath of God. It’s as if we all stepped back in time to the mid-1980′s. And remember, this has Dobson’s imprimatur all over it.

These comments arise from a most incredible willful ignorance. If AIDS were God’s judgment on the gay community, why did he have the AIDS virus enter the human chain clear back in the 1930′s in the Congo River basin? In fact, there is a pile of documentation showing that AIDS began ravaging parts of Central Africa since the early 1970′s. But in a land of inadequate fresh water, mysterious tropical diseases, war, povery, and poor hygiene and nutrition, this went unnoticed by the outside world until the CDC reported the deaths of five young gay men in 1981.

Gay men have been the scapegoats ever since. For twenty-five years now, people like Falwell, MacArthur, and Dobson have been compounding the suffering of those with the opportunistic infections that accompany AIDS and the struggles of those who continue to live with the disease. Medical science has progressed significantly in the past decade and those opportunistic infections are no longer the threat they once were. But no pill can vanquish the one opportunistic infection that continues to plague society. Stigma is alive and well, and James Dobson and John MacArthur are among the carriers.

I guess you could say they are Stigma-positive.

Comments

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Emproph
June 8th, 2007 | LINK

As if they didn’t have enough on their hands with the legalized institution of adultery, also mentioned but not clarified as:

Matthew 19:9
“I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

__
Somehow I find the stigma of hypocrisy to be uglier than the stigma of AIDS.

Ken
June 8th, 2007 | LINK

Agreed Emproph. But you cannot tell them that. Nor will they give you an answer about the sinfullness of divorce and remarriage. I even asked Alan Chambers from Exodus about divorce and remarriage but he ignored me by repeating my question without an answer. That tells me he doesn’t have a problem with it. Which isn’t a surprise really with most churches nowadays.

When they are called on their own sinfulness and you use the Bible itself to show them, a book they defend as God’s literal Word, they fly off the handle. They rant and rave about it. I’m only showing them they are compromising Jesus’s words for their own selfishness. That repentance for their second marriage is needed. Celibacy is the only recourse for those that have married a second time without the marital unfaithfulness clause. There are no expections, according to the Bible, outside of marital unfaithfulness.

The Catholic Church has divorce. They just gave it a fancier name. Annulment.

Ken
June 8th, 2007 | LINK

Ooops…

“There are no expections, according to the Bible, outside of marital unfaithfulness.”

That was supposed to be “exceptions”. LOL!

Phillips
June 8th, 2007 | LINK

Ever been to the CDC? The & of heteros with AIDS used to be miniscule as opposed to almost all being from MSM contact. The percentages gradually began to level out as more heteros became infected over the years (deliberate infection? blood supply? gays don’t confine themselves to other gays you know), though the lines of % never met, and just recently the MSM % began to climb. Right now it’s at around 67%.

Phillips
June 8th, 2007 | LINK

and consider when 67% of AIDS cases are from MSM, while ‘gays’ make up around 3% of the population.

Jim Burroway
June 8th, 2007 | LINK

Phillips,

Ever been to Africa? The earliest AIDS cases were reported in the major urban hospitals as early as 1972, although they weren’t sure of what they were looking at at the time. The first AIDS cases in Europe were wealthy Africans in the mid-1970′s who were desparate for the best medical expertise they could find. The first European to die of AIDS was a Danish surgeon who had worked in primitive hospitals in the Congo river basin in the early ’70′s.

homer
June 8th, 2007 | LINK

Since lesbians have the lowest HIV transmission rate, does that prove they are God’s favorite people? Really, the need to make one’s group feel better than other people is so over-rated.

Phillips
June 8th, 2007 | LINK

Heya, Jim!

Yes, glad you know some facts.

While promiscuity seems to be the problem with HIV spread in Africa, homosexuality seems to be the probelm with AIDS in America, as well as virtually every other STD world-wide (e.g. LVG). However the HIV virus came about, ‘gays’ have done an exception job of spreading it here in the U.S., as well as many other STDs like ghonnorea (‘gays’ from Hawaii marching it accross to the east coast), syphillis, etc.

And don’t think “lesbians” are beyond negligible risk. They don’t seem to account for much of AIDS, but studies have shown that those engaging in WSW have a higher HIV rate, STD and STI rate, as well as are much higher risk takers – higher smoking, prostitution, pregnancy, abortion rates – than heterosexual women.

Phillips
June 8th, 2007 | LINK

and just to save the time of you making more show you the study that shows higher HIV risk behaviors among WSW:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11141849&dopt=Abstract

There are plenty of other studies on them showing high-risk behaviors as well.

Jim Burroway
June 8th, 2007 | LINK

Those are an awful lot of unsubstantiated allegations you offered. Any proof?

Phillips
June 8th, 2007 | LINK

See above.

Phillips
June 8th, 2007 | LINK

About a quarter of HIV+ gays had sex without condoms in the last 3 months according to a survey of 333 people from 2000 to 2003. Alas, this is a consequence of the new drugs that enable the HIV+ to live longer. The continued spread of HIV by those infected “is a really difficult thing for the gay community in general…to talk about” said Lee Klosinski, direcotr at AIDS Project Los Angeles. (Washington Blade 11/12/04)

Vancouver, Canada: A large outbreak of syphilis has emerged in the developed world. In ’03, 254 new cases have been diagnosed in Vancouver alone. Homosexual males account for a quarter of the new cases. (‘Washington Blade’, 1/2/04) National syphilis rates in the U.S. have risen 2.3/100,000 in ’01, to 2.4 in /02, and will be higher still in ’03. The CDC attributed the rise in syphilis cases in ’02 to homosexual males, seems they accounted for 40% of all reported cases during the year. (‘Washington Blade’, 12/26-28/03)

Phillips
June 8th, 2007 | LINK

Study on high-risk HIV infection among WSW:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11141849&dopt=Abstract

Lynn David
June 8th, 2007 | LINK

Note what MacArthur said and Dobson agrees with, “…it generates venereal disease and AIDS….” MacArthur is someone who usually well-choses his words. So I think he literally means what he says here, that homogenic sex generates, that is creates out of nothing, the viruses causing STDs and AIDS/HIV.

This has become a teaching of some border-line Christian cults over the last few years, such as the Billy (Yisrael) Hawkins led House of Yahweh, which is prophesying the outbreak of nuclear war in the Middle East on June 12th. Duck and cover!

quo
June 9th, 2007 | LINK

‘Whenever something goes wrong, we’ll know who to blame. It’s them lesbians.’

Jim, this is putting words in MacArthur’s mouth. He didn’t say that everything that goes wrong is the fault of lesbians, only that celebration of lesbianism is proof that something has gone wrong.

Ken
June 9th, 2007 | LINK

Hmmm…According to Phillips above it seems when it comes to sex overall it’s gay and lesbian sex that is the root of the spread of all the sexual diseases around the world.

Sorry Phillips, I’m not buying into that one bit.

“And don’t think “lesbians” are beyond negligible risk. They don’t seem to account for much of AIDS, but studies have shown that those engaging in WSW have a higher HIV rate, STD and STI rate, as well as are much higher risk takers – higher smoking, prostitution, pregnancy, abortion rates – than heterosexual women.”

This comment made me laugh. If you truely believe that lesbians have a higher risk of getting pregnant and getting an abortion over straight women then you seriously don’t know what a lesbian is.

rmthunter
June 9th, 2007 | LINK

“It’s as if we all stepped back in time to the mid-1980’s.”

Try the 11th century. I think that’s probably closer.

This, unfortunately, is what you get when belief takes precedence over evidence.

Phillips
June 9th, 2007 | LINK

It’s what the study showed (one in Australia), and no, it means you don’t know what a ‘lesbian’ is, a sexually devious person of which studies show is much more prone to high-risk behavior – they’re confused, that or just sexually adventurous.

Jim Burroway
June 9th, 2007 | LINK

Phillips.

You have found one lone study from a single STD clinic in Australia that applied a definition of WSW that is inconsistent. The letters to the editor that study generated are very instructive to the problems with that study. But of course, that’s no concern of yours, now is it?

Your contentions about the rates of Syphilis are misleading. There are several confounding cofactors which influence the statistics, including race (a very high rate among a subpopulation of African-Americans and hispanics) and the rural south.

But none of that is related to this thread, is it? If you have not done so, I also strongly urge you to re-read our comments policy. Because of your persistence in making unsubstantiated claims, of distorting the claims of others, and of changing the topic of a thread (this one, about “God’s wrath”) into a thread of unrelated complaints, I have placed your comments in moderation.

I am interested in learning, however, that since you say you’re not Paul Cameron, why you are so keen to parrot everything he says and defend everything he does. Do you too, agree with his portrayal for how the Nazi’s “dealt with the problem”? And does his manifesto match yours?

Be assured that your response to that question will be posted in full.

Jim Burroway
June 9th, 2007 | LINK

quo;

Jim, this is putting words in MacArthur’s mouth. He didn’t say that everything that goes wrong is the fault of lesbians, only that celebration of lesbianism is proof that something has gone wrong.

I think I see your point, although if I understand it correctly I don’t think I agree with it. Sure, it wouldn’t be everything that goes wrong. His statement is much more open ended.

It seems to me as I read it that should any calamity happen — “And God would be just in any calamity that he brought upon us” — one evidence for such “just-ness” would be lesbianism, or at least our “celebration” of it. And since the word “any” is open-ended, I used another open-ended term “whenever”. Because whenever something happens, you get to include it as part of any. To me at least, “whenever” is less absolute than “every time” (or “everything that goes wrong”, as you rephrased it), which I think more closely matches MacArthur’s not entirely absolute contention. Although I can understand that “whenever,” too, is pretty indistinct in meaning and can mean either “every time” or “any time.”

But then, as I sit here and re-read, “And God would be just in any calamity that he brought upon us,” the word seems to say, pick one calamity, any calamity… which begins to sound more absolute.

Or is there something else I’m missing?

Phillips
June 9th, 2007 | LINK

Jim,

Thanks for allowing my posts to show up.

You say my comment was off-topic, but your whole post is pretty much saying that the connection between HIV and gays is a myth. Well, we don’t really know whether ‘gays’ started the virus, but it’s pretty obvious its spread can be attributed to them, here in the U.S. anyway, as well as, like I said, virtually every other STD world wide.

I suggest you file a complaint to the CDC for attributing the rise of syphillis cases to ‘gays’ that year, as well as explain exactly what factors make the statistics misleading…

What do you mean his “portrayal” of how the Nazi’s delt with ‘gays’, he simply wrote what had been recorded. It was a history lesson that gave insight into ‘homosexual’ behavior, an article that was inlcuded in 1 of 8 issues that are released by FRI every year.

I trust you will allow this to be posted, as well as a comment that I will post soon-after this since you’ve accused me a making insubstantiated claims.

Jim Burroway
June 9th, 2007 | LINK

re: Phillips

The CDC does a very good job explaining the many factors contributing to the rise of syphilis. You don’t. That’s why my complaint concerning distortion rests with you, not the CDC.

I won’t be releasing Phillips subsequent comments because they merely continue along the same themes as those above. To do so will be to perpetuate an argument by exhaustion, not substance.

I use the term “argument by exhaustion” because I’ve seen this before. It’s another well established Cameron tactic going all the way back to his letters to the editor in the Nebraska Medical Journal in 1985-1986. The argument never ends, at least not until every other sane person merely gives up and walk away. I’m not interested in engaging in interminable discussions with someone who doesn’t exhibit reason or honesty.

There have been many other dissenting commentors on this site, and their comments are most welcome. The tone of the comments have been mostly civil, with a few exceptions. I’ll overlook exceptions; consistent patterns, I won’t.

If Phillips is not Paul Cameron, he is at least an excellent imitator and avid defender. If he wants a platform from which to spew, he can start one of his own (if he hasn’t already.) I see no reason to allow him to hijack this one.

And when Cameron (or “Phillips”) allows a free and open exchange of comments on his own site, I’ll allow him (or his clone) to resume commenting here.

PiaSharn
June 9th, 2007 | LINK

“AIDS as the consequential wrath of God.”

When Europeans first started settling in North America, the populations of Native Americans were decimated by diseases such as Small Pox which they had no immunity against. The “It’s punishment from God for their sins!” argument was used then as well.

Looks like there’s truth in the saying that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

WBPNYC
June 11th, 2007 | LINK

“Phillips”:

Your use of quotes around the terms gay and lesbian is deeply hurtful and quite neatly displays your agenda.

William, NYC

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