Box Turtle Bulletin

Oh my! Can you imagine the outrage of the anti-gay groups if someone tried to distribute “pro-homosex” literature to little kids?

It would be one thing to tell the little kids that some families have a mommy and daddy, some have 2 mommies, or 2 daddies, and some have just one mommy or daddy – but how do you lie to them and say that they can learn not to like sucking cock thru Jesus without bringing the sex thing up?

a. mcewen

or is someone wanted to distribute literature about a muslim group.

Janet (they want to take away our right because we are Christians) Folger would sprain her throat praising those who would stand against the Muslim group.

Robert

I’m a resident of Arlington, Virginia, and have followed this closely. Arlington never treated PFOX differently, PFOX just didn’t believe them when they told them what their policy was. So PFOX sued (looking for those activist judges, I guess), and Arlington clarified their policy, which is that they do backpack mail for middle and elementary students, but not high school (because HS students throw the flyers away, whatever they are). I wonder what would happen if PFOX distributed their nefarious flyers to 6th graders.

The Alliance Defense Fund seems to have adopted PFOX as their own special case. They’ve been sending letters to Mmontgomery County in MD, too.

rrjr

Timothy Kincaid

It needent even be pro-gay literature. Can you imagine the screaming if someone started Parent and Friends of Former Religous Bigots and gave middle school children literature that said,

“PFFRB believes that no one chooses to be raised as a religious bigot or asks for bigoted ideas–but ex-bigots demonstrate that those with unwanted bigotry can seek help and information in overcoming those feelings” and tells them how to walk away from “churches that teach bigotry and hatred against others because of their race or sexual orientation”.

Maybe I should print up a bunch of copies of the Heterosexual Agenda…

missionaryway

I believe that schools & workplace are not the places to discuss homosexuality. But if homosexuality is going to be discussed in schools, then it’s only just that the views of PFOX & Citizens for a Responisible Curriculum also be given.

If you believe that H&L behaviors are wrong, then you must be permitted to express this view in a school, if groups like PFLAG & GLSEN say that H&L behaviors are OK.

I realize that this topic ends up rehashing the same points, but sexual orientation is a moot point. It’s about changing behavior even if orientation doesn’t change. But there are 2 things I would like to hear H&L say for a change-because I’ve heard only a few homosexuals say that they believe these 2 things.

1. I would like to hear from homomen & lesbians who regard sex change surgeries as abominations which must be abolished. I write this because as you’re aware, transexuals have allied themselves with homosexual groups such as PFLAG. Transexuality is worse than homosexuality & I have in the past tried to enact legislation to abolish sex change surgeries. I would like to hear from H&L who think transexuality is bad & who believe in abolishing sex change surgeries.

2. On the topic of homosexuality, I would like to hear from H&L who say that while they’re adults who’ll engage in same sex activities with fully knowing & willful adults, that they are against pushing the view that H&L behaviors are OK in the workplace & schools. Forcing some1 who regards H&L behaviors as bad to listen to the view that H&L activities as OK, while not allowing opposing views is harassment. Either homosexuality should not be discussed in the workplace or if it is discussed, then the views of those who oppose H&L activities must also be given.

missionaryway.

If you are looking for points of agreement on either points one or two, then you are not likely to find them here. Sorry.

On point 1, I’m not willing to call my trangender friends an abomination. Ever. Never. Ever. So you can just forget that one.

And on number two, I won’t talk about my boyfriend at work or in school if nobody else talks about their wives or girlfriends. Deal? Otherwise, not agreement there.

Trolling gets you nowhere.

missionaryway

Sex change operations are harmful. They incr. the risk of strokes, heart attacks & even certain cancers. They are maimings & the worst abomination to come out in science. They don’t cure diseases. Abolishing them is the right thing to do.

But let me raise somethings else about homosexuality & GID that usu. doesn’t get as much consideration. What if they did discover the 100% cures for homosexuality & GID? If such a cure were found, we would hear more about the harms of sex change maimings that usu. only get minor coverage. I have no doubt that people with GID will take the shot or pill which will cure them of GID. We would hear about how science was wasted all those years on those surgeries & how animals were maimed in these brutal vivisections.

With homosexuality, I have no doubt that many homosexuals & lesbians would take the shot or pill to go straight. We would hear about the harms of H&L activities, sodomy & oral sex which currently only get minor coverage, or the fact that depression & suicide rates are higher among people who engage in these activities. As discoveries can change discussions, I have no doubt that scientists would push for this pill or shot if it were discovered.

Groups like PFOX & Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum exist to counter the 1 sided view that PFLAG gives. If schools want to discuss homosexuality honestly, then they’ll permit the views of those who regard H&L activities as harmful, such as CRC. What is sad is the blind faith that currently is prevalent in many schools on this topic.

Now I know that if you see nothing wrong with H&L activities, then you’re going to hate what groups like CRC say. But I believe sex change surgeries are wrong, which is why I want groups like CRC to speak. Not to be reduntant, if you are truly interested in schools discussing homosexuality honestly, then groups like PFOX & CRC must be permitted to speak, even if you dislike what they will say.

Ken R

Sorry to disappoint you missionaryway but I for one would not take the cure, shot or pill. And what makes you so sure that many homosexuals would? I have always been and always will be a person that refuses to be subjugated under any one’s power except the Lord Jesus Christ. And even if it was demanded and enacted into law by the government that gay sex was wrong and punishable by prison or even death, I’d still be gay. And, I would not deny that I am even to save my own life. Btw, suicide rates for the GLBT community is due to being ostracized by religion and people, like you, that try to paint the GLBT people in the worst possible light.

Problem with PFOX and other organizations like them they want to dictate policy to the rest of the American people. They want others to adhere to their demands that we live according to what they see is right and that usually means to their very interpretation of scripture. Sorry, as I said I will not be subjugated under any one’s rule except the Lord Jesus Christ. I will not allow any church, minister, or priest to dictate to me.

You claim in other posts that you are not a Christian. Funny, you sound and act like one. You talk about behaviour should be curbed regardless if orientation has not changed. This would cause many people to suffer so your sensibilities or beliefs are not offended. This is a typical conservative Christian response.

missionaryway

Ken R., I know that posts like mine are uncommon on this website, as most posters already agree with Tim Kincaid & Jim Burroway. But PFOX & CRC are not hate groups, nor is Peter LaBarbera. They decry the that they see as bad. I’m against tobacco use, but that doesn’t make me a smoker hater. So why should being against certain sexual activities make me a hater? I’m against H&L activities, sodomy & oral sex for the same reason that I’m against sex change surgeries-because they’re harmful.

To address your other points, though what you wrote what I’ve heard before. As far suicides among transexuals, depression & suicides among them has often been caused by trauma over the deicision to be maimed by their surgeons-a reason which sadly gets minor press coverage.

As far as suicides among H&L, the repeated claim you made is that it’s because of society’s prejudice. Dr. Neil Whitehead however gave a study which verified that even in nations tolerant of H&L activities such as Holland, the rates of suicides were about the same as that in the U.S. The impact of societal prejudice on depression & suicides among H&L is far less than the hype.

No, I did not say that all H&L would take the shot or pill to go straight if a 100% discovery were made, as you’re an eg. of some1 who wouldn’t. However, there would certainly be many-Michael Glatze who was profiled recently is an eg. What my point is is that discoveries can change discussions in ways which may not have been seriously considered before.

As to your assertions about me acting like a conservative Christian-1 may agree with them on these topics but still not be religious.

You also know that I gave credit to Hitler & the Nazis for passing animal welfare laws which were advanced for its time. Hitler also signed laws to protect ravens & he made the Eagle the national symbol of Germany. Do you think I’m a Nazi because I credit the Nazis for passing animal welfare laws that were ahead of time?

FYI, recently I signed my name on the Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum (CRC) petition, where I wrote that I agree with CRC & suggested that how I believe CRC could improve its website is to be neutral on religion as not every1 shares the same religious belief. I also recently e-mailed Peter LaBarbera where I told him that 1 thing I would like to see Americans for Truth do to improve its website is to discuss the harms of homosexuality & transexuality by limiting it to those 2 topics & only incidentally discuss Christianity, so that Americans for Truth can also get non-Christians & atheists who agree with them to join in.

Actosrep

missionaryway,
Please do me a favor and cite your sources regarding how oral sex is harmful. I’ve been married for 12 years and my anecdotal information contradicts you.

Michael Airhart

missionaryway is a troll who long plagued Ex-Gay Watch with unsubstantiated allegations and a refusal to answer questions.

I wish to extend my condolences to the Bulletin for having to deal with him. Oy…

Ken R

missionaryway,

You have been bought into the lie that anal sex is solely a “gay sex act” its not. Since there are more heterosexuals in the world it has been proven time and time again that heterosexuals enjoy these activities as much as some gay people. I for one do not have anal sex. Most gay men I know don’t. Oral sex is a different matter. If you believe for one minute that Christians don’t engage in oral sex you are sadly mistaken. Another lie you have been bought into is that all our relationships are built on sex. They are not since sex is only a small part of any relationship. And if the relationship is built on great sex it will never flourish into a loving relationship.

Yes, PFOX, CRC, and AFT are in fact hate groups. They have nothing positive to say about the GLBT community on any level. Even if we all remained celibate at their demands they still would hammer at us with the fact we are still beneath them. We would still be ostracized by some in society and the religious because our orientation cannot fulfill their Biblical belief and demand that the only true relationships that are blessed are a union between a man and woman.

The point I’m making is this. They will do whatever it takes to dictate their beliefs and make them superior over all others. This is being done through legislation as we speak. Marriage laws and Hate Crimes laws to name two. Do you honesty think these religious organizations won’t go after you for your non-belief? To them you are a heathen. Part of their belief is to spread the Gospel to non-believers. Anyone that does not have the same religious furor or belief system as they do is less than in their eyes. I’ve met too many Christians online and in person to prove this over and over again.

missionaryway, my suggestion would be to find non-religious allies in your hope to curb same-sex relations. At least that would be consistent to what you believe.

Missionaryway,

I’m going to have to ask you to adhere to our Comments policy, namely:

–Defamation against entire categories of people. Your comments against transgenders as abominations are way out of bounds.

— Excessive reliance on labels and broad assumptions as a substitute for informed discussion.

— Unsubstantiated claims, for example, claims which are not backed by direct quotes, links, or bibliographic references from independent sources.

— Internet trolling.

If you find you cannot conduct a civil and respectful conversation, I’d suggest you move on.

missionaryway

Thanks again Ken & I’ll address your points. Before that, to Actosrep, oral sex has been shown to incr. the risk of oral cancer, though the risk is small. This was verified by a 2005 Swedish study. Yes, drinking alcohol, smoking & other things incr. risk of oral cancer. But with oral sex (w/o trying to be graphic), you don’t have to be an expert to understand that putting hairs, etc. into the mouth does carry risks.

To address Ken’s points. Actually, sodomy is taboo between men & women. Yes, there are men who perform sodomy on women, just as there are women who engage in scat, but the #s are less than they hype. There was a time in the U.S. ,when a man & his wife could go to jail for engaging in sodomy & oral sex. As far as oral sex, while many men would like to perform oral sex on women & have women perform oral sex on them, most women just aren’t willing to perform oral sex on men, but I’ll agree that the # of couples who engage in oral sex is higher, as the taboo on this has gone down, but there are still many women who regard this activity as kinky.

Incidentally, sex is best when couples are 1st married. I know that some middle aged people will say that their sex lives are as good as when they were in their 20s, but I don’t believe it, because the novelty tends to run out. If you’ve been to the Grand Canyon 4 times, chances are you’re not going to find it as interesting as when you saw it the 1st time.

Dr. Neil Whitehead lived in Afghanistan, India & Japan-nations where Christians are a minority. Yes, he is a Christian, but he has seen other religions & cultures-Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists & Shintos.

Your points about CRC, PFOX & AFT-they are not religious groups, though most members are Christians, as Christianity is the predominant religion in the U.S. Regina Grigg the founder of PFOX has said that what she is against is H&L behaviors & she says that she does not hate her son, but wants him to change his behavior to either straight or celibate behavior. I also saw the names on the CRC petition. While most names are Christian-as God & the Bible was quoted, I also saw Indians, Orientals & Arab names on the petition-I’m guessing that not all are Christian.

If H&L did change their sexual behaviors to celibate, CRC will not judge you. They have said themselves that what they are against is H&L behaviors & that their view is to change the behaviors, even if orientation doesn’t change. I know that you may think that they’re hate groups because they’re against certain sexual behaviors, but if all H&L became celibates, they’ll say that the world has become better.

Oh yeah. This reminds me of another one, missionaryway:

–Persistent disruptive off-topic comments â€” for example, comments that seek to turn a page about anti-gay violence into unrelated complaints about pedophilia or promiscuity.

Your comments are off topic. Please adhere to the comments policy. There will be no more warnings.

Ken R

If H&L did change their sexual behaviors to celibate, CRC will not judge you. They have said themselves that what they are against is H&L behaviors & that their view is to change the behaviors, even if orientation doesnâ€™t change. I know that you may think that theyâ€™re hate groups because theyâ€™re against certain sexual behaviors, but if all H&L became celibates, theyâ€™ll say that the world has become better.

And you have proved my point exactly. These organizations demand that we change to accomodate their religious beliefs. And Why? Our feelings, thoughts, and desires are not behaviors. It’s part of our internal makeup. We desire to have loving relationships and sometimes that love cannot be expressed in what you consider “normal relations” because we have a different orientation than most people. Make no mistake, these groups all claim we “choose” to be gay. I refute that claim. And reject their demands.

In closing when someone refers to a straight couple they say relationship. When it’s a gay couple its considered behaviour. It really makes no sense to me. As I said previously our relationships are based on love and not behaviour.

Makes me wonder if they hold to the same celibacy rule for those that have divorced other than adultery. I wonder if these same groups demand life long celibacy without any hope of a loving commitment for any person that has divorced? Seems rather selective if they don’t demand this. Personally I think they would not. Would loose too much money in the long run. Some of their own people are probably divorced and remarried.

Btw, Regina Griggs didn’t start PFOX.

missionaryway

Ken, your thoughts are again noted. I don’t have anything new to add here on PFOX, CRC & AFTAH, because we’ll just rehash what we’ve already discussed. I didn’t even discuss VD & pedophilia, so I don’t understand why Jim claims I raised it. I do want to make a final note on something Jim asked regarding references.I hope it’s not off topic, because others requested it.

To start with, Mike Airhart already knows my contempt for the AMA. I dislike the American Medical Association because they’re against boxing & I’m pro-boxing. You have to have guts to be a boxer & the AMA has no guts.

But to references, since I was asked for information on the harms of sex change maimings, while I can’t link here, Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons can tell you about the fact that hormone shots do carry medical harms. If some1 suffers from GID, what Drs. should do is treat the disorder-not maim the patient.

Incidentally, I would abolish the use of animals in medical experiments to find cures for diseases or @least require that animals be on anesthesia. They must forbid the use of dogs, cats & monkeys, because we have friendship with these animals. Using animals for things like obesity is wasting science.

But the right way to help people who have GID is to help them overcome GID, not maim them. Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons who treats GID can provide more information on the harms of sex change surgeries. Dr. Fitzgibbons has also said that sadly, some surgeons are even suggesting that kids who have GID have these maimings. Similarly, if some1 suffers from autism, you do what you can to help them overcome autism based on the science available, not affirm autistic behavior. But Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons (you can find him on the Internet) can provide expert information on the harms of hormone shots which breakdown the body over a lifetime.

This is my final comment on this topic, because it’s evident that anything else we’ll discuss will be rehash & you asked me for references.

Jim Burroway

I also asked you — along with several other requests — to stay on topic. Please do so.

Actosrep

http://www.ndri.com/news/oral_sex_may_increase_oraltonsillar_cancer_by_human_papillomavirus_hpv_-172.html

missionaryway,
Your comment on the harmful nature of oral sex deserves to be clarified. Researchers have noted that “A study from Sweden shows that Human papillomavirus (HPV) infection from oral sex may have increased rate of tonsillar cancer. ”

Your earlier statement seems to imply that it is oral sex, in and of itself, that constitutes a risk.

Of course HPV is a risk. Being in a committed, monogamous relationship for 12 years certainly mitigates that risk. Regarding your other observation about lovemaking going downhill as the “novelty” runs out. It’s not about novelty, it’s about loving my wife. And yes, it’s even better after 12 years.

missionaryway

Ken, I have thought of something new to say about PFOX, CRC & AFT, which I’ll soon post. Astropec, nothing personal, but your answer is typical of some people in mid life who want to believe & say that sex is as good or better than in their 20s, but really is not, as people aren’t usu. as beautiful in their 40s (grey hairs, fatter) as they were in their youth.

Ken, I agree with PFOX,CRC & AFT that minors are too young to have sex. Parents should be permitted to forbid minors from engaging in H&L activities. Another reason PFOX & CRC gets involved in schools is that there have been cases where psychologists (esp. school psychologists) have affirmed a minor’s homosexual identity by telling them that it’s OK to engage in H&L activities, against their parents wishes. Minors are reqd. to get parental permission before they can participate on the school track team, football, martial arts, etc. Minors are also reqd. to get parental permission if they want to convert to another religion.

Yet as CRC & PFOX have pointed out, in the case of homosexuality, adults are telling minors that it’s OK to engage in H&L activities. Apologists for sex change surgeries such as PFLAG & GLSEN have come to campuses & pushed their views on others.

CRC & PFOX believe that minors are too young to be making decisions regarding homosexuality & they don’t need adults like PFLAG interfering & telling minors it’s OK to participate in these sexual behaviors. CRC & PFOX believe that adults esp. parents should do what they can to prevent minors from engaging in H&L activities.

Emily K

missionaryway, If you’re going to make empty claims like “most women won’t perform oral sex on men,” back it up with statistics. hearsay does not prove any point – except that you’re probably making stuff up.

Ken R

missionaryway, I have no problems telling kids that they should wait to have sex until they find a life partner. Any sex really until they are ready to have it with someone they plan to spend the rest of their life with. Whether it be in marriage or if your gay or lesbian until you find a life partner. As a Christian I support it. However, in the real world this may not be attainable for some and we have to teach children to protect themselves against any and all sorts of sexual diseases if they are going to have sex.

You cannot honestly tell me that if kids are not told about gay sex, gay and lesbian kids will not engage in it? They will figure it out on their own whether they are told or not. And if they do have sex they should be told to get protected. Not informing or not allowing kids to have sex is NOT going to stop kids from having sex. Gay or straight. We need not kid ourselves and think by saying “No” they will not do it. Kids need to be taught about safe sex. We do a disservice to them when we don’t talk about it.

PFLAG and other like organizations do not tell kids its ok to engage in gay sex. What they do is provide support and try to help kids understand their developing and questioning sexuality. Whether they be gay or straight. They are not indoctrinating them. PFLAG is trying to help those kids that may have a Gay, Lesbian, or Bi orientation to accept themselves as they are and give them the self-esteem they need to accept themselves which PFOX is trying to prevent. PFOX’s whole agenda is to force the belief that being straight is the only Biblical and moral good whereas being gay is the evil opposite that must be squashed. To them Heterosexuality = Holy and righteous living. Homosexuality = Evil and immoral living. These kinds of distinctions are very hurtful to those that are questioning their sexuality and if their orientation gravitates towards being gay, PFOX wants to but a stop to it and pound into those kids the belief that they are not born gay and that they are just confused. There is nothing worse than instilling into a kid that your very sexual makeup is evil and that you are less than your heterosexual peers. While some in PFOX may not outright say that, that is what is implied.

This will be my last post on this subject. In closing I want to reiterate one thing. PFOX and like organizations are only trying to push their Christian Right agenda and beliefs on everyone else. If someone came to the school and taught about Wicca or Buddhism you can be sure that PFOX and other like Christian organizations will be right their protesting the indoctrination of their children about other religions. Their goal has been clear from the beginning. And I have come to realize posts back that you, missionaryway, don’t like what you call “the behaviour” because it all stems from personal disgust and revulsion on the whole matter.

Btw, missionaryway, I believe boxing is morally wrong because of its violent nature. It does in fact cause harm and even death. But you know what? I don’t demand its removal from society or try to enforce a change in its bad behaviour.

Think about it.

missionaryway

Ken R. thanks for posting, but now you accuse PFOX & CRC of disliking Buddhists & members of other faiths. Yes, PFOX & CRC have gotten alot of their help from Christian ministries,-but they welcome non-Christians & atheists who agree with them. They do not want to impose a Christian theocracy as you accuse them of.

As to PFLAG, when I was in college in 1993, PFLAG spoke @ 1 of my sociology classes & PFLAG did imply that same sex activities between consenting adults are OK, though they didn’t directly say it. Our teacher was certainly not going to tolerate any1 of us saying that same sex activities are wrong.

Whether or not it is inborn is a moot point. What PFOX & CRC, should tell “potentially homosexual” minors is that rather than discussing whether or not it’s inborn, they should say that even if it’s inborn, H&L activities must be prevented. They should say that while there may be a gene to engage in a behavior, does not make the behavior right. PFOX & CRC see something wrong with men having sex with men or women having sex with women & they don’t want minors to be given the 1 sided view of PFLAG.

I don’t believe PFLAG should use schools to propagate their views or if they’re going to speak, @least allow countering views of those who see something wrong with H&L activities. PFLAG uses the euphemism of “Tolerance” & “diversity”.

Finally, I must also note that groups like PFOX, CRC & ATF raise topics others usu. don’t cover. We consistently hear of anecdotal cases violence against H&L, yet there have been cases where people have been assaulted or even killed for advising H&L to quit their sexual activities such as the case in Chicago of an elderly woman who was murdered after she advised a man to have sex with women instead of men. The mainstream press basically ignored it, but ATF wrote about it.

cowboy

We are discussing a topic about a lawsuit being settled and it evolves into a discussion about boxing?

I would bet having missionaryway over to dinner would provide for a lively evening. The conversation could be hotter than a gut-bustâ€™n bowl of my chili.

a. mcewen

Forgive me for getting off topic also, but missionaryway, you are incorrect concerning the incident with the murdered elderly woman.

The media did cover the incident. Some folks wanted the connotation of the coverage to be “look what gay people do when they are questioned about their behavior.” However that was not what the case entailed.

The elderly woman was murdered by a mentally sick man. His orientation was irrelevant. ATH exploited the incident just as they exploited the Jesse Dirkhising incident.

Dirkhising was murdered by two men who were gay. Some were complaining that since the criminals were gay, the media did not cover the incident with the intensity of Matthew Shephard’s murder.

Those claims were the things that hurt any coverage of the Dirkhising story. Rather than talk about how crimes against children should get more media attention, some wanted to spin the story to claim that a: gays are child molesters and b: the media didn’t want to cover stories that saw lgbts as criminals.