Box Turtle Bulletin

I am no longer involved directly with LIA but I have some comments. Gays and Lesbians are deceived. They have little hope for eternity unless they give up the lifestyle to which they have become addicted. Homosexual behavior is sin against the Holy God of creation. 1st Corinthians 6:9-11 clearly state God’s position on the matter.
If you committ yourself to repentance and trust in the Lord you may get saved from your sin. I would welcome any direct feedback by e-mail,

Rev. Jim Scott
jimscottministries@yahoo.com

Priya Lynn

The only one who is addicted is you Jim – you’re addicted to hate. Gays who harm no one are by definition behaving morally, your attempt to destroy loving gay relationships is by definition immoral.

Alex

Reverend Scott,

That you would use phrases like “the lifestyle” and “addicted” shows how little you truly know about gay and lesbian people.

Richard Rush

Jim Scott,

I don’t have the slightest concern about the notions of “hope for eternity” and “sin against the Holy God of creation.” Nor do I care about the contents of a holy book. Your appeal to fear may work with some people, but not with me.

After many years of thought, and consideration of evidence (or, I should say the lack thereof), I concluded that the likelihood of a god’s existence is close to zero. But if you have some real evidence, I’m willing to listen. But your evidence needs to be something newly discovered because I think I’ve pretty much heard it all before.

Timothy Kincaid

I know that it’s the holiday season and that people are more charitable and likely to care for the hungry, but still I think it is good policy to not feed the trolls.

Priya Lynn

I know that’s a popular idea, but I’m inclined to agree with those who say bigotry needs to be addressed.

John

75% seems about 75 points too high to be anywhere near their actual success rate.

Jim Scott

Are most GLBs atheists?

Timothy Kincaid

Mr. Scott,

No, most members of the LBGT community are not atheists. Actually, the largest gay organizations are churches.

However, there is a higher level of atheism, agnosticism, and hostility towards religion in the gay community. And it’s a bit surprising that it isn’t larger than it is.

For most gay people, the only interaction they have with someone identifying as Christian is when those “Christians” are actively trying to make their lives more difficult. Christians try to take away their children, deny them health insurance, bar them from visiting loved ones in the hospital, block them from leaving an inheritance to their partner, remove employment and housing protections, ban them from serving their country, and so on.

The least offensive thing that “Christians” do is to arrogantly come up to gay people, call them sinners, demand they repent, and waltz off feeling all superior and righteous. Then they say, “I don’t hate you. I love the sinner (you), I just hate your sin” and then proceed to try and destroy the “sinner’s” life.

Truly, gay people look at such folks and all they see is evil and hatred and animosity. Who wants to have anything to do with that kind of nastiness? Who has a need for that kind of god?

It is a miracle that there are any gay people at all that have any faith whatsoever.

Jarred

Timothy, I agree with a lot of what you said. But please remember that “religion” and “Christianity” are not interchangeable words. There are other religions out there. Some people may be hostile towards religion. But they may also just be hostile towards the one religion that — in our society at least — tends to be the most hostile towards LGBT people.

Jason D

Tim, you’re missing a rather significant experience.

The gays that grow up within a religious tradition, and upon realizing who they are, and admitting it publicly they are rejected by their family, friends, pastor — by their entire community.

Consider if your entire world kicked you out. Friends, family, relatives, neighbors, classmates, teachers, everyone. Some may not reject you outright, they may try to “bargain” with you, extorting your compliance with their rules, perhaps an ex-gay camp, in exchange for not being abandoned.

Wouldn’t that make you hostile toward religion? Especially since what you have done in no way merits that sort of punishment.

Richard Rush

In response to Timothy’s excellent comment I want to clarify that my non-belief in the existence of gods is unrelated to the frequently vile treatment of gays by Christians. But that vile treatment is one of several reasons I am rather hostile to Christianity. While the answer to the question of whether or not a god exists does not depend upon the behavior of the believers, it could play a role in motivating a person to ask more questions and think more deeply about religion. And it could also play a role in how one imagines the possible behavior and motives of the people who propagated a religion thousands of years ago.

In my location (nowhere near the Bible Belt) it would not be difficult for a gay believer to find a gay-welcoming congregation. If I suddenly became a believer (not likely) I would probably choose to be Episcopalian. They have all the great trappings of religion that appeal to me (the architecture, music, and art), but without the nastiness.

cowboy

Is Mr. Scott trying to say something to get a tweak from us?

He succeeds:

I think the vast majority of us are religious. I hear the comment (in both gay and straight worlds) of not being too keen on organized religion. Being anti-organized religion is not being atheistic. I have found peace with worshipping God as a very private matter that sometimes doesnâ€™t need a brick & mortar building nor alters and pews.

I can grind my knees into the dirt and feel closer to my Maker than any time I have knelt at any alter in any Temple/Church. Iâ€™m happy to pay my tithe but I donâ€™t need a middleman or need a supposed agent of something Holy to take and distribute my money on its terms. And above all, I donâ€™t need a Church to tell me Iâ€™m the equivalent of some mental retardation because I canâ€™t control my behavior.

Iâ€™m at peace with my relationship with my God. So, I donâ€™t see the need to have you, Mr. Scott, judge me.

Priya Lynn

Unfortunately I never took down the link to it, but a commentor on another board posted a study that showed roughly 2/3rds of American gays are christians. So, its simply not true that most gays are atheists.

Burr

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/06/23/12422

One of BTB’s own posts earlier this year addressed the question of whether gays are Christian..

…taking the exact numbers with a grain of salt, letâ€™s look at what Barna found:

70% consider themselves to be Christian,
60% describe their faith as â€œvery importantâ€ in their life,
58% have made â€œa personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in your life todayâ€,
About 40% are absolutely committed to the Christian faith, and
27% qualify as born again Christians

Jim Scott

There are many so called “Christians” who frankly have no real concern for anyone outside of their family and some others they may seem to care about.

Someone who believes that those who refuse to be saved, are destined for an eternity separated from God and anyone they ever loved, should try to show them the error of unbelief in their lives. Christians have an obligation to share the “good news” that God loved them enough to give His son for them.
All He requires is faith and repentance of sin.

I do not want to hurt anyone, but it does not surprise me that hatred towards Jesus is directed towards me and anyone who might quote what the Bible says is sin against the Holy God that loves them.

John

Interesting how easily Mr. Scott changed the focus of these comments from his original lie (75% success rate in converting people from gay to straight) with another lie/question accusing gay people of being atheists.

While I believe that gays and atheists can live honorable, productive lives, those who lie in the name of religion while running a gay to straight “treatment” program that they know is unsuccessful are the ones “struggling” with serious moral problems.

Timothy Kincaid

Jim Scott,

I can state with certainty that if you “try to show anyone the error of unbelief in their lives” you will accomplish nothing but driving them from Christ.

Perhaps that’s why Jesus never asked any of his followers to go hunt down unbelievers and tell them about their errors. In fact, the only folks he ever told about “the error of their ways” were those religious folk who were convinced that they were in the right.

But Jesus did give advice to his followers about how to treat people. He said to treat them the way they want to be treated.

So – here’s the tough one, Mr. Scott – if you want people to fight against injustice against you, you are commanded by Jesus himself (not a suggestion) to fight against injustice to others.

You don’t have a choice. If you want to see Heaven, Mr. Scott, Jesus has commanded you to treat others the way you want to be treated. In this case, it would be to take up the cause of equality for gay people.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit has directed you to this site to get this Word. You can receive it or reject it. God is your judge.

Jim Scott

To “John” amd others.

What I witnessed at LIA was people who went through the program and came out with a “committment” to stay “sober”.
There were only a few dropouts. the percent who said they wanted to abstain was by my observation in excess of 75%. This is not a lie or comical

Like an alcoholic your orientation probably will never change. That does not mean the alcoholic can not stop drinking and it does not mean the homosexual can not stop performing homosexual acts. The reality is that a large percentage go back to the lifestyle even though they do not want to. You can wash a pig but that will not keep it from returning to the mud.

Success or failure is up to the individual

Timothy Kincaid

Jim Scott,

“I want to abstain” is not the same as being heterosexual.

Most people do not define a life of celibacy without ever experiencing love, affection, romance, a candlelit dinner, fixing soup for the one you love when they are sick, an anniversary surprise, or even that feeling of excitement when your one love returns at night, in short no meaningful relationship at all ever – as a success.

I am so very sorry that you do.

John

I wonder if there are any heterosexuals in the ex-gay movement who have taken up a life of celibacy in order to really walk the same path that they demand their gay victims take. I have never heard of one doing this, but they are ever so quick to demand that of others.

I exclude Catholic nuns and priests from this comment, because their vow of celibacy is related to their vocational choice and not in order to be in solidarity with people who are suffering the ex-gay path.

Priya Lynn

Thanks for that link Burr, I frequently encounter people who claim all gays are anti-religious.

Burr

There are many so called â€œChristiansâ€ who frankly have no real concern for anyone outside of their family and some others they may seem to care about.

No.. these very REAL Christians care more about others than a phony like you. They want their gay brothers and sisters to share in the joy of love, instead of denying them one of life’s greatest pleasures. Instead of being selfish, denying reality, and demanding that their fellow travelers in the human experience surrender to their childish fantasies, they accept and love them as their own.

Jim Scott

To Timothy and others;

I am a Christian. I believe the Bible is the revelation of the only God.

In John 14:6 Jesus said “I am they way, and the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me.”

Jesus really lived and died and was resurrected. That is my hope and faith.
He was on this earth either a Liar, a Lunatic, or LORD (God). Your eternal destiny is based on what you believe or do not believe. MY dsire is the same as God’s: I do not want anyone to perish.
There is no other religion that offers that hope because they are false religions. They are based on works. Mine is based on faith which is demonstrated by trying to do good works.

Ephesians 2:8-10 ‘i MEAN THAT YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH BELIEVING. YOU DID NOT SAVE YOURSELVES; IT WAS A GIFT FROM GOD. IT IS NOT THE RESULT OF YOUR OWN EFFORTS, SO YOU CAN NOT BRAG ABOUT IT. GOD HAS MADE US WHAT WE ARE, IN CHRIST JESUS, GOD HAS MADE US WHAT WE ARE. IN CHRIST JESUS, GOD MADE US TO DO GOOD WORKS,WHICH GOD PLANNED IN ADVANCE FOR US TO LIVE OUR LIVES DOING.”

It is almost Christmas. I celibrate the birth of my savior. My prayer is that as many other people as will, will also celibrate the birth of the Savior.

Jarred

There is no other religion that offers that hope because they are false religions. They are based on works. Mine is based on faith which is demonstrated by trying to do good works.

I’d like to point out that making a distinction between “saved by works” and “saved by faith which is demonstrated by trying to do good works” seems like an awful lot of hair splitting. And they’re extremely fine hairs at that.

Of course, I’d also note that part of the issue is that you’re assuming all religions are about “salvation” anyway. That simply isn’t that the case. My own religion is relatively uninterested in the afterlife. Instead, it is focused on building bonds, strengthening relationships, and making the world around us a better place. It’s about the here and now, because the afterlife will take care of itself. (Actually, in my religion, the afterlife is a return to this life.)

It always amazes me what a narrow understanding of religions people tend to have. They tend to assume they’re all like the one they follow (or are most familiar with). Except where they’re different enough to make them “false,” of course. ;)

Priya Lynn

Jim said “He was on this earth either a Liar, a Lunatic, or LORD”.

Or fiction – those aren’t the only three choices.

Burr

Your eternal destiny is based on what you believe or do not believe.

Not necessarily. Even if God exists, there’s the possibility He doesn’t give a damn what we believe.

MY dsire is the same as Godâ€™s: I do not want anyone to perish.

If God doesn’t want anyone to perish, why is He sending people to perish for such a triviality in the scheme of things?

Timothy Kincaid

It is so very sad that Jim Scott celebrates the birth of his Lord, but denies his Lord’s message.
He delights in the story of the virgin and the star and the angels and the shepherds, but ignores the commandment that the baby grew to give.

I think Jim would like Jesus a whole lot more if He had just kept His mouth shut. Jim’s glad to no longer have to sacrifice an animal, but he sure doesn’t want to sacrifice his pride.

Tommy

Frankly it is amazing to me what kind of petty deity certain sects of Christianity has created. The God that Mr. Scott seems to be so enamored of is someone who refuses to offer proof of his existence, and then punishes people for not believing in him. We are talking about a deity that punishes people for being raised their whole lives (up to their deaths) in a region of the world with little to no influence from Christianity. And, if Young Earth Creationism is true, then a God who is actively lying to humanity. That’s neither loving, nor merciful, instead it is petty and egotistical. I’d wager that such a deity is unworthy of being worshiped.

Jim, comparing homosexuality to an addiction is completely laughable. There is nothing in the way homosexuals respond to homosexuality that is so drastically different than the way heteros respond to heterosexuality. To do so shows a complete ignorance to the fact.

Nevermind the reality that alcoholism is debatable as a disease, let’s look at it’s manifestation.

-An alcoholic is not born with an attraction to alcohol — homosexuals ARE. To put it a different way, you’re not likely to meet someone who knows they’re an alcoholic while never ever having had any alcohol. Whereas you will meet gay virgins. All of us were at some point.

-Alcholism is an addiction to a substance, what substance are LGBT people addicted to? We don’t all have the same sex drive or enjoy the same sexual activities.

Alcoholism is really just self-gratification gone too far. People experience an inability to moderate their intake, frequency, and it alters their personality drastically when they’re using. There are people who can enjoy alcohol responsibly, without ill effects. Just as there are those who can enjoy, sex, drugs, and gambling (three common addictions) responsibly and without ill effects. Yet I doubt your complaint is that our homosexuality has “gone too far” and that’s where the addiction comes in. In fact, most homosexuals do not suffer the ills commonly associated with any addiction. Our homosexuality doesn’t impair our ability to drive, to have meaningful relationships, to hold down a job, manage our money, or to take care of ourselves.

Jim Scott

The reason I made a comment had to do with my being called a liar and my remarks comical. I do not hate homosexuals or anybody else. What I have gathered from various comments is a basic denial of what is revealed in the Bible. Some comments are from those who openly declare they do not believe in Jesus Christ. Some may even believe He never existed. History proves that He did. This very date is evidence that some 2009 years ago we started counting the days till He returns.

I serve a living Lord. He is not dead.
Some 32 years ago I made Him the the Lord of my life.

Paul said in 2nd Timothy 1:12, “I am suffering now because I tell the Good News, but I am not ashamed, because I KNOW Jesus, the ONE in whom I have believed. And I am sure He is able to protect what He has trusted me with until that day.”

We are all sinners. Only one sin causes you to perish, and that is the sin of unbelief.

Priya Lynn

Jim said “Some may even believe He never existed. History proves that He did.”.

Bzzzt – wrong answer, LOL.

Jim said ” Only one sin causes you to perish, and that is the sin of unbelief.”.

It is grotesquely immoral to punish someone for a thought crime. While I may not be able to absolutely prove that some god of some sort doesn’t exist, the god you believe in can’t exist any more than a square circle can.

A just and loving god who allows him and his religion of choice to be questionable and then eternally tortures people for innocently believing they don’t is an impossibility.

Jim Scott

To: Priya Lynn

Jesus was and is a Historical Fact.
H. G. Wells was far from being a Christian and yet he wrote of the historical Jesus in his book The Outline of History.

Priya Lynn

http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html

LOL, Jim, your saying its so won’t make it so. That you’d use the example of H.G. Wells shows that you’ll accept nonsense as proof that Jesus actually existed. Wells didn’t live at the alleged time of Jesus, he was in no position to make clames about the veracity of the story.

Unlike other figures in history there are no extra-biblical accounts of the existence of Jesus. And please don’t bring up the tired old excuses of Josephus and Tacitus. They were both born long after the supposed death of Jesus and as such couldn’t have been eyewittnesses. The Josephus reference is clearly a forgery and Tacitus is merely repeating what Christians had told him.

Note in the link below the yellow portion lists 42 historians from the time or 1 century after Jesus. None of them made any mention of him. These historians made note of all manner of the most trivial of figures of the time. That all of them failed to notice a figure who allegedly drew huge crowds, performed miracles, and was a major thorn in the side of the authorities simply isn’t believable.

Jesus never existed, and your willingness to accept the blue sky as proof that he did won’t change that fact.

Ken R

Your eternal destiny is based on what you believe or do not believe.

This sentence is the very key too why so many fundamentalist/evangelical christians think the way they do. If you don’t have your beliefs 100% correctly inline to correct interpretation (we must assume they mean their interpretation) you are Hell bound. I have heard this many times from these christians both personally and online.

One misbelief or scriptural error sends you straight to Hell. No wonder these christians are always living in constant fear and making sure they have everything 100% correct. Anything less you are taking the Hell bound train. So sad.

Timothy Kincaid

Priya Lynn,

You are arguing that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Basically, your argument is that no one at the time of Christ mentioned his existence other than those who did and therefore he must not have existed.

You are, of course, entitled to believe anything you choose.

Timothy Kincaid

Jim,

Here’s what I find amusing:

No one here has suggested that they hate you. Further, they evidence this by refusing to try and pass laws imposing their beliefs on you. And yet you assume the martyr position by dramatically declaring, “it does not surprise me that hatred towards Jesus is directed towards me.”

But you, who seek to impose your personal belief code on others through the force of law assert, “I do not hate homosexuals or anybody else.”

Poor silly foolish man. I think that you are confused about the meaning of the word “hate”.

I find it amusing when anti-gay activists argue that they “don’t hate”. I always wonder, exactly how would things be different if they did hate?

Would their political or social position be any different? Would they be any more condescending? Would they be any more likely to go to a gay website, declare everyone there to be sinners, condemn them to hell, and ignore the commandments of Christ to treat them the way they want to be treated (something that you have been consistently ignoring)?

Yes, I know that they would “feel” different inside.

But how, exactly, would an anti-gay activist having hate be any different TO US than the way they are right now?

Priya Lynn

Timothy the suggestion that absense of evidence isn’t evidence of absense makes a certain assumption that one hasn’t looked for that evidence or that it’s not easily found. When one has made an extensive search for evidence that should be easily found and there is none, that is a strong suggestion that the thing does not exist.

I am not arguing that “no one at the time of Christ mentioned his existence other than those who did and therefore he must not have existed.” – that is a charicature of the position. The point is that there is NO ONE at the time apart from the bible who mentioned him, not that there were some that did and some that didn’t. If the story of Jesus were true its simply inconceivable that this very long list would contain anything but all or most of these historians making mention of him. That none did is highly significant.

Priya Lynn

If we were to take the “Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence” mantra at face value one would have to say that its just as likely as not that unicorns, leprechauns, and sasquatch exist. I’m confident that anyone that believes that is part of a very small minority.

Timothy Kincaid

Priya Lynn,

Let’s not run off together on a hog trail and make this thread about the historical evidence for the person Jesus.

Perhaps that we can agree on the following: evangelical atheists assert that there is no external evidence of the existence of the person of Jesus, but the vast majority of historians believe that evidence is adequate to indicate that such a person existed.

Priya Lynn

Vast majority? I don’t think so. Many may believe some sort of non-supernatural person named Jesus existed and Christian historians may believe the Jesus/god existed but leave them out and the vast majority of historians don’t believe a Jesus/god existed. The majority of the planet does not believe in a Jesus/god.

Timothy Kincaid

Priya Lynn,

I believe we were discussing whether a person named Jesus existed. As to whether he was a deity, that is an issue of faith, not historical evidence.

Richard W. Fitch

Priya – I tried to access the link about the existence of Jesus, but there appears to be an error. Would you repost please.

Priya Lynn

Jim Scott started this and he was asserting that the Jesus/god existed. Both questions are relevant, whether the Jesus/god exists as well as some non-supernatural person named Jesus – at the time a very common name by the way.

Priya Lynn

http://www.atheists.org/Did_Jesus_Exist%3F

Sorry Richard, my file is a little out of date and that old link is no longer found – here’s the new link:

Richard W. Fitch

Priya – Thanks. I’ll want to read this in more detail before I try a meaningful response. First, though, I see Zindler as setting up some straw men that need to be recognized. The Gospels as we have them were never intended to be read as eyewitness biographies. Those who subscribe to the Fundamentalist conviction of the Bible as “the literal, inerrant, infallible Word of God” have created a gross distortion of NT origin and function.

Priya Lynn

Richard, the gospels are frequently pointed to as proof that Jesus existed. Zindler points out that as non-eyewitness accounts they aren’t proof.

Priya Lynn

Not that eyewittness acounts are necessarily proof in any event – they are notoriously unreliable.

Priya Lynn

Richard said “The Gospels as we have them were never intended to be read as eyewitness biographies.”.

Upon taking a closer read of the link I gave – this is not the case and Richard is contradicted by John 21:24

“This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.”

Priya Lynn

*Scholars have shown that the gospel of John originally ended at verses 30-31 of Chapter 20.

Jim Scott

You may not think it is true, but Jesus’ Holy Spirit lives in me.

Most of the world’s population believe in God and of those who believe over half of them believe in Jesus.

I am sure there are many homosexuals who believe also in God. Here is the catch: The Bible says in Romans; “That while we yet sinners Christ died for us.” God gave all He had, namely His Son
to pay the penalty for our sins. There is nothing left for us to do except repent and believe in Jesus Christ. I can condemn no one and do not want to. I simply am called to warn people of the penalty for their unbelief. If I did not care,I would say nothing and stop going to other parts of the world trying to lead people to Christ. God has blessed the effort with hundreds of changed hearts.

While at LIA a young man who was not only gay but a male prostitute came to me for baptism. I said Billy “Why do you want to be baptized?” He told me “so his sins could be washed away”.
I explained that water will not cleanse you. Only the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Billy trusted in Jesus Christ and was saved. Then I bapized him as instructed: “In the name of the Father,the Son, and the Holy Spirit”.

Write me at:
jimscottministries@yahoo.com

Timothy Kincaid

Jim,

If you put one tenth as much effort into caring for the bodies of those around you as you do about converting their souls and convincing them to “believe”, you might possibly begin to see what Jesus really was about.

I find it horrifying that you note that Billy was a prostitute, but you don’t even consider for a moment why. Most young gay men that sell their bodies do not do so out of laziness, greed, or avarice. They do so because they have been kicked out of their homes, their churches, and their communities. Left with no money, no skills, and no network of support, they have few options on how to feed themselves.

Rather than chide Billy for his misunderstanding of scripture, you should have repented and begged his forgiveness for contributing to the cause of his desperation.

Alex

Jim,

And whatever happened to Billy, if he even exists? Do you still keep in touch with him to see if he is still “no longer gay”?

Priya Lynn

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul07/paul07_index.html

Jim, you may not think its true, but Santa’s spirit of goodness lives in me.

Christians believe Jesus was a god, a minority of the world believes in that god:

Jim said “I simply am called to warn people of the penalty for their unbelief”.

Jim, LGBTs have heard that countless times, you’re not warnning anyone, you’re merely harrassing them with a tired old tale.

John

I find it amazing that Jim Scott equates a post challenging his “gay to straight” success rate lie as being comical as a statement of disbelief in God. Talk about unbridled hubris. Anytime anyone challenges anything this guy says (no matter how rediculous), it is the equivalent of not believing in God? That could only be true, if Jim Scott were God.

So Jim, is that what you are really saying???

”
Most of the worldâ€™s population believe in God and of those who believe over half of them believe in Jesus.”

FALSE:

This article shows that the percentage of world population that is Christian is about 32-33 percent.

The article mentions that Christianity isn’t fairing so well noting:

” However, Christianity has been in a very slow decline for years as a percentage of world population. Weigel states: “…Christians were 34.5 percent of world population in 1900, and will be 33.1 percent in 2002.”

But if you don’t believe that, here’s a different source from the Archdiocese of Los Angeles: “Of the 6.4 billion people on Planet Earth, some 2.1 billion, or 33.1 percent, are Christians of one sort or another. ”

“I am sure there are many homosexuals who believe also in God. Here is the catch: The Bible says in Romans; â€œThat while we yet sinners Christ died for us.â€ God gave all He had, namely His Son
to pay the penalty for our sins. There is nothing left for us to do except repent and believe in Jesus Christ. I can condemn no one and do not want to. I simply am called to warn people of the penalty for their unbelief.”

When I was a child, my brother figured out that he could get me to do his chores or other things if he just said “Mom told me to tell you to clean the toilet!” All he had to do is invoke a higher authority,

It only worked a few times. I soon figured out that if Mom wanted me to clean the bathroom, she’d just tell me to do it. Often, when actually talking to Mom, I’d discover that she was either being intentionally misquoted – “You boys need to clean the bathroom” or that her command was completely fabricated.

It worked because at first, he were able to invoke the authority of Mom or Dad unquestioningly. To question the command was to question Mom and Dad themselves!! “You’re going to get in trouble if you don’t clean the bathroom right now, Mom said!” and he was also able to avoid responsibility for his commands as well “It wasn’t me, it was Mom who said you had to clean the toilet, I’m just telling you what she told me to tell you.”

Jim, you’ll have to pardon me if you sound EXACTLY like my brother using the same strategy.

Believe it or not, I have talked to God. I have asked on many occasions if my being gay is wrong. In response, God has blessed me with a loving, respectful, funny, and compassionate partner. I have been blessed with a relationship that strengthens me and has actually made me a better, more mature and responsible person. We’ve been together almost four years with no drama, no fights, and no games. It’s been rough, but that’s because of outside influence, job loss,car problems, family issues, money problems — the things that most couples have to deal with. But us? We’re fine.

You can point to as many phrases in as many books as you can find. You can quote mistranslated, endlessly edited, 3rd-hand accounts of things that happened millenia ago till the cows come home. I have given God endless opportunities to tell me that what I am doing is wrong, and all I’ve heard is silence. All I’ve seen is day after day chock full of evidence that my life is glorious the way it is. God has given me a wonderful love, and no MAN is going to tell me to give that gift back. Certainly no man who can’t be bothered to get his facts straight.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

drat, first link doesn’t seem to be working. Here’s the address:

Burr

The last two paragraphs of your comment are EXACTLY how I feel, Jason D. Thank you for putting it in such wonderful prose.

Jim Scott

I have lost touch with Billy. I assure that he is real person. God’s Holy Spirit convicted him of his sins and he repented and trusted Christ to save him.
Whether or not he has slipped back into his old behaviors, I do not know. I do know this; God does not go back on His promises. Billy was sincere in trusting Jesus to save him. If he has wondered off, he is still God’s child.

The problem with many of you is that you refuse to ask forgiveness for what God calls sin and you have never personally trusted Christ to save you from the eternal penalty of unbelief and the powerful control you live under.

Merry Christmas

Priya Lynn

Jim, people who aren’t hurting anyone have no need to ask anyone for forgiveness. You have nothing to offer but empty threats – you’re never going to win anyone to your side with hate.

Scott P.

I know this forum is supposed to be open to all, but I honestly think certain people, such as this preacher and Quo need to be banned, not as a matter of censorship, but simply to keep things on topic. Their arguments add nothing to the dialog. I’m talked and chatted with many people of “faith” but when they refuse to answer question directly, or refuse to consider what points I may be making I stop wasting my time with them. I’ve come to realize that all I’m doing is feeding their egos and need for attention. As the internet saying goes “Don’t feed the trolls.”

Priya Lynn

Well, I’m not sure about banning, but these constant warnings that you shouldn’t be gay or you’ll be eternally tortured certainly appear to be a direct violation of the Box Turtle Bulletin comments policy which says comments may be deleted, or commenters banned or moderated for “Threats, direct or implied.”

For those of you who believe in a god before you take the hate-filled threats of people like Jim Scott seriously consider that there are no originals of the bible and the copies have been copied many times over frequently by people with an agenda. Sometimes those people make their own additions, the most recent example of which is the addition of the word “homosexual” to the bible, a word that never even existed prior to a century or so ago. Clearly people recently have modified the bible to make it more anti-gay and it wouldn’t be surprising if its happened in the past as well.

If you believe there’s a god, ask yourself what that god is like. Is he/she a just and loving god, or a vain arbitrary monster? Ask yourself if punishment should fit the crime or if it should be as heavy handed as conceivably possible for the most minor of offences. Would the god you know eternally torture someone merely for thinking the wrong thing, or for an act of same sex love that harms no one? Of course not, its inconceivable, a god like that simply cannot exist and you have no need to worry about the threats a man whose life is so unhappy he seeks to destroy your happiness because misery loves company.

Merry Christmas everyone.

cowboy

Iâ€™m doubt there is any genuine sincerity when some people worry about my eternal salvation and then ignore the real evils in our midst: War. Hunger. Hate. God must be annoyed at the priorities some people have.

The conflict really comes down to knowledge versus intentional ignorance. I am constantly amazed at how many people really donâ€™t know what homosexuality is. It grates my nerves when some non-homo tries to tell me what I am. I think I pretty much know what being a homo is all about. Iâ€™m a professional homo after all.

By the way, Priya, I appreciate what you said about â€œreasonablenessâ€ as a factor in our judicial system. So.very.true.

Merry Christmas everyone. (echo echo echo echo)

Timothy Kincaid

Jim

The problem with many of you is that you refuse to ask forgiveness for what God calls sin and you have never personally trusted Christ to save you from the eternal penalty of unbelief and the powerful control you live under.

Merry Christmas

OMG. I think you didn’t even realize the irony of that. Hilarious!!!

Are you sure you are really Jim Scott and not a clever parody?

Timothy Kincaid

To those who think that Jim Scott is making off-thread comments, you may wish to note that the topic of the thread is… Jim Scott, himself.

So I’m giving him a great deal of leeway in commenting.

Jim Scott

To: Timothy Kincaid

I appreaciate your “giving me a great deal of leeway in commenting”. As to my making “off-thread comments” and “the thread is ..Jim Scott, himself”, I think you have totally misunderstood my intentions. I read comments from people who I know do not know God. As a person who loves and does not hate I am not concerned about your sin: I am concerned about your soul. I have been where you are. I have been at a state where I believed that if I was not trying to hurt someone, I was not a sinner. My education caused me to doubt everything I was told about God. Although I believed there must have been a Creator, I did not believe He had anything to do with me.

I will not bore any of you with all the sordid details of my past. About the people who told me I needed to believe in Jesus Christ, but when I was 31 years old I became a believer and got saved.

Most of you are like people in a car headed for disaster, because the bridge is out ahead. Someone trys to warn you, but you ignore the warning and speed ahead.

This dialog is not about me. It is between peoople and God. Their is a Savior.

Timothy Kincaid

Jim,

I do know why you think you are here. You believe that you are evangelizing, spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am saddened that you see gay people the way that you do. But I am sorrowed that you see God in the way that you do. What an unhappy existence to see your brothers and sisters as evil and your god as arbitrary and demanding.

I will pray for you, Jim.

Burr

Oh goodie another born-again.

Sorry, but I’m tired of being lectured by people who needed to be spoonfed “Morality for Dummies” after hitting rock bottom. People like you have no standing to preach to people like me, who have known right from wrong a lot longer than you have.

To correct your car metaphor, I’m already on the road to happiness. You are the devil, reaching for the steering wheel and trying to send me careening off into the chasm of self-loathing and suicide.

John

So, Jim, what does being saved and accepting God have to do with lying about gay to straight conversion success rates at Love In Action?

Does God approve of you taking people into Love In Action, accepting money from them, telling them that your “success rate” is 75% when you know that they are going to be as gay the day they leave as when they came in?

Do you tell them that they are spending all this time and money at Love In Action in order to learn how to be celibate?

If your goal is so noble, why must it be built on a foundation of lies?

Jim Scott

There are omly two kinds of people:

Lost or Saved

There were one kind of people who come to LIA: People who wanted freedom in Jesus Christ.

You have till this point decided against freedom in Jesus Christ. Satan has you bound you in your sexuality. Your God is your sexuality.

Timothy—don’t pray for me. I am okay.
Pray for nothing but salvation.

At LIA i saw more than 75% graduate with a committment to change their lives. If they were saved, their sins are forgiven. If they failed in the plan for their lives, I guess you are glad.

Homosexual behavior is an abomination to the Holy God who created us. God never created any of us to sin. It is decision we make ourselves.

1st Corinthians 6:9-10

“know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators (those who have sex outside of maraige), nor idolators (those who love anyone or anything more than God),nor adulterers (those who have sex with a married person), nor effeminate {those wmen who take on a womens’s mannerisms and dress), nor abusers of themselves with mankind (homosexuals). Nor theives, nor covetous, now drunkards (alcohol abuses and drug abusers) nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

These are the words of God and not mine.

Let’s just leave it at that.

You can contact me by e-mail.

John

Jim wrote: “At LIA i saw more than 75% graduate with a committment to change their lives. If they were saved, their sins are forgiven. If they failed in the plan for their lives, I guess you are glad. ”

It isn’t really a question of me being glad or the participants failing. You told the newspaper that your gay to straight conversion rate was 75%. You didn’t talk about how they were saved by their commitment to celibacy or anything else that might remotely approach truth

Instead of quoting Corinthians (you are really, really fond of Corinthians), I would suggest you review something far more basic in the Bible– the Ten Commandments. The one dealing with “bearing false witness” comes to mind.

The fact that you can’t admit that you deliberately lied to the reporter, leading them to believe that you had a 75% gay to straight conversion rate, for PR purposes says a great deal about Jim Scott as well as Love In Action–and none of it very good.

Timothy Kincaid

Jim,

I think we’ll just let your latest declaration stand on its own. That you see yourself as “okay” and the rest of us as lost says volumes.

Richard W. Fitch

We might like to ask how the Rev. Scott himself comes out in terms of this passage by Paul. It also includes thieves, slanders and swindlers. As to the terms “malakoi”(effeminate) and “arsenokoitai”(male bed), those who do serious koine Greek studies will tell you the words are obscure and used almost no where else but by Paul in the NT. What Paul’s intent may have been is still open to debate; at least among scholars who do not take the Bible as the “literal, inerrant, infallible Word of God”.
http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/words-matter-1-corinthians-1-timothy/

“These are the words of God and not mine.”

Actually, they are not. The words in parenthesis are YOUR interpretation, nothing more.

You want us to listen to you, but you don’t want to take responsiblity for the message. The message is yours, and yours alone, not Gods. God didn’t come here, YOU did. God didn’t write all these posts, YOU did. God doesn’t keep petitioning people to email him, YOU do.

Gay does NOT necessarily equal atheist.

Although with people like you constantly passively aggressively threatening us, it’s no surprise there are so many that turn their backs on faith of any kind.

You are just like my brother, threatening me with punishment from on high if I don’t do what YOU want me to do. God is the person who’s authority you have appropriated for your own purposes.

Jim, you are nothing but a frightened, arrogant MAN who has the audacity to speak for God. God does NOT NEED YOU to speak for him. We can and do speak to him all on our own. It is the height of hubris for you to claim we do not know God.

It is not our sexuality that separates us from God, it is busybody, self-righteous, cherry-picking, close-minded, manipulative, Pharisees like you who do.

Take the log out of your own eye before speaking to your brother about the speck in his.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

Over and over and over again God tells you to MIND YOUR OWN BEESWAX. But you refuse to listen. Meanwhile people starve in the streets. Meanwhile children are cold. How much time are you wasting on us that could be better used to fulfill the commands God has ACTUALLY given you?

Burr

You have till this point decided against freedom in Jesus Christ. Satan has you bound you in your sexuality. Your God is your sexuality.

Nice projection there. Take a look in the mirror. It is YOU who obsesses over sexuality and chooses to make YOUR sexuality the ONLY definition of godliness.

Jim Scott

Why do you reason as you do? It is true that finding the article about me led me to speak up. I did not lie and do not take back the fact that 75% of the people I saw go through the program at LIA graduated with a desire to go sober from their sexual sin. Neither myself or LIA tried to change anyone from being homosexual to heterosexual. You want the rest of soceity to accept what was long illegal behavior and call it normal for your small part of soceity. My concern is for your salvation and the rest of soceity’s salvation. God saves some to pass His Word on to others so that they might be saved also.
I am talking about eternity and you are caught up in this world and your lifestyles. You are no different from heterosexuals in your need for salvation. You simply do not believe you sin so you do not believe there are penalties for your sin. You find fault with me for simply telling you what God says:

Romans 1:16
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth…”

You are shaking your fists in hate towards me but in fact you are turning your back on the God who died for you.

There was a city called Sodom where homosexual behavior was exhibited by all the men. It was destroyed. This world as you know it will be changed when Jesus returns. There will be no more sin; homosexual or heterosexual.

If you do not believe me just read the Bible. If you do not believe all the Bible, how can you believe any of it? You can call me a liar all you want to, but you are on dangerous ground when you call the author of the Bible a liar.

Priya Lynn

Jim, the god you describe cannot exist. Gays and lesbians have heard your tired empty threats countless times and your constant repetition of them isn’t going to impress any of them. Your theory that the bible is true because it says its true is just more dumb circular logic.

It is you who’s spreading the hate Jim, your whole life is consumed with the threat of violence. I pity you.

Jim Scott

Priya Lynn,

If God gave His Son so you would not have to suffer the wages of sin, why is everybody blaming me?

Romans 6:23

“For the wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God) ; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Now if I want you to have eternal life also, why would you think I hate you?

I do not hate you. I love you. More important is Jesus loves you. He died for me and you.

Timothy Kincaid

Richard,

Thank you for the reminder. It is as if Paul condemned Squigglebloop and forever after those looking to condemn gay folks declared, “See! Squigglebloop, right there, see! It means homosexual.”

But I think you are wasting your time arguing with Jim Scott. I don’t think he is qualified to debate koine Greek.

Timothy Kincaid

Jim Scott,

You are shaking your fists in hate towards me…

No one is shaking their fists in hate towards you. If anything, we pity you. You are bound by the Law, held captive to your own certainty, and incapable of seeing outside of your own experiences.

That is truly sad.

And even worse, you feel it necessary to translate everything through the prism of “hate”. Unless we all say, “oh, yes Jim, you are right” then you think we hate you. That is the thinking and attitude of a small spoiled child: ‘If you don’t give me the toy a want then you hate me.’

And you cling to your confused understanding of Scripture. In your world, Sodom was a city comprised completely of homosexuals which was literally destroyed by fire and brimstone raining from Heaven. And Lot’s wife physically turned into sodium chloride. And from this literalist belief in what was a morality tale about inhospitality, you find condemnation of gay people and, ironically, a justification for inhospitality.

You have memorized Scripture to use as a tool, a weapon. But you have never really thought about the meaning or purpose of Scripture. You worship the book, the words, rather than see them as a way to know God. Your god is not a loving father, but a book of rules.

What you fail to realize is that the opposite of faith is not doubt, but certainty.

Faith, which gives the courage to challenge, question, and ponder, is outside your grasp. So, like so many Christians who find thinking to be too difficult and who find questioning to be too frightening, you cling to certainty. And fearful that others may have an insight to God that eludes you, you go about insisting that you are right and plugging your ears to any counsel that disagrees with your preconceptions.

That is fine for a small child learning Bible stories in Sunday School. But for an adult, it is soul-damaging. And it is not the way to know or love God.

I’m reminded of a child that has a bedtime. As we mature, we know why there was a bedtime and we know the principle behind the rule. We mature and learn to apply to ourselves the principles that are behind the rules we obeyed as children. But all the child know is that there is a bedtime, a rule, and that it must be followed. It provides a structure, a meaning, and is comforting in its consistency.

You, Jim, see the Bible as a set of rules. You are not yet spiritually mature enough to see principles. So like a child, you insist on the rule. It comforts you to cling to the rule and never have to think. But is isn’t healthy.

I will continue to pray for you, Jim. If you are willing, God can open your eyes and you can grow to be a man spiritually. You can put away the thinking of a child, as Paul says, and embrace the maturity of a faith that is open, growing, questioning, and adult in its perspective.

Richard Rush

Jim, you might have some credibility if you could demonstrate that the adoption of your religion came as a result of exhaustive comprehensive unbiased research into all of the world’s religions. Although the research would take years, I don’t know how else a person could legitimately conclude that a particular religion is the correct one. Otherwise, I have to assume that you simply adopted the religion of your parents, or the dominant religion of the social environment in which you live, or maybe you just picked one that felt compatible with your personality. And, if so, your arguments merely come from indoctrination and the contents of a holy book. But all religions involve indoctrination and holy books, so why should I accept yours and reject the others?

Jim Scott

Timothy,

My thinking was much like yours 32 years ago.

“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” Hebrews 11:1

The thing that you are unable to grasp because you are “spiritully blind” is faith. You must have logical facts before you can believe. “Believing” is not based on logic. it is based on child like faith. Jesus said “whoever comes to Him must come as a little child”. You are smart but not wise. The wisdom that comes from God is foolishness to you.

Why should I care about you? I have a love in my heart for you and others like you that is in the Greek “agape”. It is impossible to have that love unless it comes from God. In your efforts to insult me, you are actually insulting The God who called me to preach 32 years ago.

Timothy, do you love anyone enough to try and save them? Can you tell them how they can be saved?

There was a song out years ago that contained the lyrics,”I swear there ain’t no heaven, and I pray there ain’t no hell”.

If God should ask you after you pass away, “Why He should let you into heaven”, what would you say?

Timothy Kincaid

Jim,

How very sad that you think that faith means believing blindly what you have been told. Accepting without question. Setting aside the mind that God gave you, plugging the ears He provided, and closing the heart that should be open.

Faith means nothing of the kind. It means being open and listening, knowing that God’s grace will guide. It means challenging your own perceptions and letting the Holy Spirit do its work.

If at the end of my earthly days God should demand justification for my life and hold up some giant clipboard listing all of my failures, I will simply respond that I am always welcome in the home of my Father and Creator.

Should God be the god that I think he is, that will suffice. Should he instead by a cold distant bureaucrat looking to see if I’ve ticked all the “be good” boxes and none of the “be bad” boxes, then why would I want to spend eternity with an autocratic despot?

You assume that my goal is to achieve Heaven even if it means worshiping a diety who defines “love” as demanding unthinking obedience and blind adherence to rules, who considers His creation as toys to discard and subjects to torment like some ancient blood-thirsty demon who wreaks havok on those who don’t offer victims on its altar.

If God is who I think he is, then I have no worries. If he’s who you think he is, I want nothing to do with him nor would I want to spend eternity worshipping a being that is not worthy of worship.

Jim Scott

Richard,

I previously stated that until the age 0f 31 I was not a Christian. In college I became convinced that all religion was a bunch of nonsense.

I have studied most other religions. You find they are based more on ideas and works rather than a person. I am not really very religious and what I believe is not based on what some other person taught. I serve a living God by faith. I invited Him into my heart. His Spirit is inside me. I have absolute confidence that when I die I will go to heaven. I try to do good works,but I rea;ize I can never be good enough.

When the time was right, the Holy spirit convicted me of my sins. I repented and put my faith in Jesus Christ to save me. He put His Spirit in me as a seal against the devil and all his deception. Once converted I made a decision concerning the Bible. It goes like this:

If God said it——-in His Word
then that settles it—-in my mind
whether anyone else believes it or not.

There was a man named David who sinned greatly in murder and adultery. David wrote the 51st Psalm in which he said regarding his sin:

“Agaist thee and against thee only have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight:
that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest”

The idea of judging carries with it the ability to condemn or punish someone else. None of us can condemn someone else. I am not trying to condemn anyone.
I just want people everywhere to come to faith in the Lord before as the verse above says, God judges them.

Jim Scott

Timothy,

You just don’t get it, do you?

God sent His son and you reject Him.
What else could he have ever done for you?

You may not like the prospects of a God who says He has prepared things for you that you can not comprehend, but I assure you do not want the alternative.

John

Poor Jim Scott. He is the one that doesn’t get it. Rejection of Jim Scott is not necessarily rejection of God. It doesn’t appear that Jim Scott can tell the difference.

I was always taught that God gets to decide who goes to Heaven. It never occurred to me that he turned that responsiblity over to a mere mortal like Jim Scott who couldn’t possibly have the breadth of understanding of the lives, decisions, experiences and motivations of the people he so confidently condemns to Hell. He has repeatedly declared people on this thread as condemned to Hell, despite knowing nothing about them.

Jim lies about his work (claiming a 75% success rate in changing people from gay to straight which he acknowledges in this thread isn’t true) and claims unjustified authority to judge others. I would encourage him to find peace and Honesty in his own life rather than harrassing others.

Burr

Where is Timothy rejecting God or Jesus?

You subscribe to the false notion that if you do not accept what other mere fallible mortals like you say about God and Jesus then you don’t believe in them.

Why do YOU reject people’s own personal relationships with their maker?

Priya Lynn

Jim, you don’t know what love is. Christians like you have bastardized the meaning of love, you can’t love someone you don’t know. To you love is a cheap trivial thing that you claim to have for everyone, leaving it with no value at all. Your concept of love is one where you seek to control others with threats and intimidation. You don’t know love, what real love is. All you know is hate and threats. Again, I pity someone with a life as empty as yours. You are devoid of happiness and you seek to deprive others of their happiness because misery loves company.

Jim Scott

Priya,

You know nothing of my life other than what you imagine. The facts are I am happily married , have four children, and four grandchildren. Although I am retired I still teach and travel on mission trips around the world. My life is not only happy but fullfilled.

Hatred comes from those who can not love like the love that God bestows.
Jesus said “If you love me you will keep my commandments”. I see many of the GLBT movement doing and saying everything to circumvent what the majority of the world believes is wrong behavior. I have said much more about the importance of going to heaven than I have about the sin of homosexual behavior. There are many sins and the Bible says we are all sinners. I have simply been saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ. The opportunity is open to all. If you perish it is your decision not mine.

There was a man named Jonah who God told to warn the people of Ninevah. After he ran from God and had to spend three days in a big fish, he reluctantly warned them and the whole city was saved. I have no intention of spending any time in a big fish. You have been warned.

Richard W. Fitch