Box Turtle Bulletin

Box Turtle BulletinNews, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric
“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
This article can be found at:
Latest Posts

Love In Action’s New Director Announces Comically High Success Rate

Daniel Gonzales

June 15th, 2008

Peterson Toscano served as Grand Martial of the Memphis pride parade this weekend which prompted another round of media coverage on the ex-gay movement there. Check out this passage from the Memphis Commercial Appeal:

But according to [Love In Action], Toscano’s experience differs greatly from those of most other people getting treatment. Of 400 people who have gone through the program, more than 300 have been turned straight, the group says.

“Our success rate is higher than our dropout rate,” said Love In Action director Jim Scott. [pictured above]

“It works for some people, and for some people it doesn’t.”

Perhaps Scott is equating successfully completing and graduating from LIA with “turning straight.” Long term “success rate” isn’t addressed leaving Scott’s claims laughable at best and misleading at worst for those unfamiliar with the contrived working tricks common in the exgay movement.

Comments

COMMENT RSS 2.0 | TRACKBACK URL

New Love In Action moron claims 75% “success rate” for their ex-gray program. « break the terror
June 16th, 2008 | LINK

[...] (h/t Box Turtle) [...]

Suricou Raven
June 16th, 2008 | LINK

I think when he says ‘turning straight’ he means something entirely unrelated to ‘staying straight.’ Keep a gay person in semi-isolation for a few weeks while constantly telling him the lord will turn him straight, and I imagine that by the time he leaves he really will believe he is straight – chalk up a success for LIA! This also explains why their ‘successes’ have a tendency to ‘relapse’ after a few days to a couple of months. The self-delusion just doesn’t hold up once they are out of the program.

Jim Scott
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

I am no longer involved directly with LIA but I have some comments. Gays and Lesbians are deceived. They have little hope for eternity unless they give up the lifestyle to which they have become addicted. Homosexual behavior is sin against the Holy God of creation. 1st Corinthians 6:9-11 clearly state God’s position on the matter.
If you committ yourself to repentance and trust in the Lord you may get saved from your sin. I would welcome any direct feedback by e-mail,

Rev. Jim Scott
jimscottministries@yahoo.com

Priya Lynn
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

The only one who is addicted is you Jim – you’re addicted to hate. Gays who harm no one are by definition behaving morally, your attempt to destroy loving gay relationships is by definition immoral.

Alex
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Reverend Scott,

That you would use phrases like “the lifestyle” and “addicted” shows how little you truly know about gay and lesbian people.

Richard Rush
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Jim Scott,

I don’t have the slightest concern about the notions of “hope for eternity” and “sin against the Holy God of creation.” Nor do I care about the contents of a holy book. Your appeal to fear may work with some people, but not with me.

After many years of thought, and consideration of evidence (or, I should say the lack thereof), I concluded that the likelihood of a god’s existence is close to zero. But if you have some real evidence, I’m willing to listen. But your evidence needs to be something newly discovered because I think I’ve pretty much heard it all before.

Timothy Kincaid
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

I know that it’s the holiday season and that people are more charitable and likely to care for the hungry, but still I think it is good policy to not feed the trolls.

Priya Lynn
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

I know that’s a popular idea, but I’m inclined to agree with those who say bigotry needs to be addressed.

John
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

75% seems about 75 points too high to be anywhere near their actual success rate.

Jim Scott
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Are most GLBs atheists?

Timothy Kincaid
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Mr. Scott,

No, most members of the LBGT community are not atheists. Actually, the largest gay organizations are churches.

However, there is a higher level of atheism, agnosticism, and hostility towards religion in the gay community. And it’s a bit surprising that it isn’t larger than it is.

For most gay people, the only interaction they have with someone identifying as Christian is when those “Christians” are actively trying to make their lives more difficult. Christians try to take away their children, deny them health insurance, bar them from visiting loved ones in the hospital, block them from leaving an inheritance to their partner, remove employment and housing protections, ban them from serving their country, and so on.

The least offensive thing that “Christians” do is to arrogantly come up to gay people, call them sinners, demand they repent, and waltz off feeling all superior and righteous. Then they say, “I don’t hate you. I love the sinner (you), I just hate your sin” and then proceed to try and destroy the “sinner’s” life.

Truly, gay people look at such folks and all they see is evil and hatred and animosity. Who wants to have anything to do with that kind of nastiness? Who has a need for that kind of god?

It is a miracle that there are any gay people at all that have any faith whatsoever.

Jarred
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Timothy, I agree with a lot of what you said. But please remember that “religion” and “Christianity” are not interchangeable words. There are other religions out there. Some people may be hostile towards religion. But they may also just be hostile towards the one religion that — in our society at least — tends to be the most hostile towards LGBT people.

Jason D
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Tim, you’re missing a rather significant experience.

The gays that grow up within a religious tradition, and upon realizing who they are, and admitting it publicly they are rejected by their family, friends, pastor — by their entire community.

Consider if your entire world kicked you out. Friends, family, relatives, neighbors, classmates, teachers, everyone. Some may not reject you outright, they may try to “bargain” with you, extorting your compliance with their rules, perhaps an ex-gay camp, in exchange for not being abandoned.

Wouldn’t that make you hostile toward religion? Especially since what you have done in no way merits that sort of punishment.

Richard Rush
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

In response to Timothy’s excellent comment I want to clarify that my non-belief in the existence of gods is unrelated to the frequently vile treatment of gays by Christians. But that vile treatment is one of several reasons I am rather hostile to Christianity. While the answer to the question of whether or not a god exists does not depend upon the behavior of the believers, it could play a role in motivating a person to ask more questions and think more deeply about religion. And it could also play a role in how one imagines the possible behavior and motives of the people who propagated a religion thousands of years ago.

In my location (nowhere near the Bible Belt) it would not be difficult for a gay believer to find a gay-welcoming congregation. If I suddenly became a believer (not likely) I would probably choose to be Episcopalian. They have all the great trappings of religion that appeal to me (the architecture, music, and art), but without the nastiness.

cowboy
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Is Mr. Scott trying to say something to get a tweak from us?

He succeeds:

I think the vast majority of us are religious. I hear the comment (in both gay and straight worlds) of not being too keen on organized religion. Being anti-organized religion is not being atheistic. I have found peace with worshipping God as a very private matter that sometimes doesn’t need a brick & mortar building nor alters and pews.

I can grind my knees into the dirt and feel closer to my Maker than any time I have knelt at any alter in any Temple/Church. I’m happy to pay my tithe but I don’t need a middleman or need a supposed agent of something Holy to take and distribute my money on its terms. And above all, I don’t need a Church to tell me I’m the equivalent of some mental retardation because I can’t control my behavior.

I’m at peace with my relationship with my God. So, I don’t see the need to have you, Mr. Scott, judge me.

Priya Lynn
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Unfortunately I never took down the link to it, but a commentor on another board posted a study that showed roughly 2/3rds of American gays are christians. So, its simply not true that most gays are atheists.

Burr
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

One of BTB’s own posts earlier this year addressed the question of whether gays are Christian..

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/06/23/12422

…taking the exact numbers with a grain of salt, let’s look at what Barna found:

70% consider themselves to be Christian,
60% describe their faith as “very important” in their life,
58% have made “a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in your life today”,
About 40% are absolutely committed to the Christian faith, and
27% qualify as born again Christians

Jim Scott
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

There are many so called “Christians” who frankly have no real concern for anyone outside of their family and some others they may seem to care about.

Someone who believes that those who refuse to be saved, are destined for an eternity separated from God and anyone they ever loved, should try to show them the error of unbelief in their lives. Christians have an obligation to share the “good news” that God loved them enough to give His son for them.
All He requires is faith and repentance of sin.

I do not want to hurt anyone, but it does not surprise me that hatred towards Jesus is directed towards me and anyone who might quote what the Bible says is sin against the Holy God that loves them.

John
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Interesting how easily Mr. Scott changed the focus of these comments from his original lie (75% success rate in converting people from gay to straight) with another lie/question accusing gay people of being atheists.

While I believe that gays and atheists can live honorable, productive lives, those who lie in the name of religion while running a gay to straight “treatment” program that they know is unsuccessful are the ones “struggling” with serious moral problems.

Timothy Kincaid
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Jim Scott,

I can state with certainty that if you “try to show anyone the error of unbelief in their lives” you will accomplish nothing but driving them from Christ.

Perhaps that’s why Jesus never asked any of his followers to go hunt down unbelievers and tell them about their errors. In fact, the only folks he ever told about “the error of their ways” were those religious folk who were convinced that they were in the right.

But Jesus did give advice to his followers about how to treat people. He said to treat them the way they want to be treated.

So – here’s the tough one, Mr. Scott – if you want people to fight against injustice against you, you are commanded by Jesus himself (not a suggestion) to fight against injustice to others.

You don’t have a choice. If you want to see Heaven, Mr. Scott, Jesus has commanded you to treat others the way you want to be treated. In this case, it would be to take up the cause of equality for gay people.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit has directed you to this site to get this Word. You can receive it or reject it. God is your judge.

Jim Scott
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

To “John” amd others.

What I witnessed at LIA was people who went through the program and came out with a “committment” to stay “sober”.
There were only a few dropouts. the percent who said they wanted to abstain was by my observation in excess of 75%. This is not a lie or comical

Like an alcoholic your orientation probably will never change. That does not mean the alcoholic can not stop drinking and it does not mean the homosexual can not stop performing homosexual acts. The reality is that a large percentage go back to the lifestyle even though they do not want to. You can wash a pig but that will not keep it from returning to the mud.

Success or failure is up to the individual

Timothy Kincaid
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Jim Scott,

“I want to abstain” is not the same as being heterosexual.

Most people do not define a life of celibacy without ever experiencing love, affection, romance, a candlelit dinner, fixing soup for the one you love when they are sick, an anniversary surprise, or even that feeling of excitement when your one love returns at night, in short no meaningful relationship at all ever – as a success.

I am so very sorry that you do.

John
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

I wonder if there are any heterosexuals in the ex-gay movement who have taken up a life of celibacy in order to really walk the same path that they demand their gay victims take. I have never heard of one doing this, but they are ever so quick to demand that of others.

I exclude Catholic nuns and priests from this comment, because their vow of celibacy is related to their vocational choice and not in order to be in solidarity with people who are suffering the ex-gay path.

Priya Lynn
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Thanks for that link Burr, I frequently encounter people who claim all gays are anti-religious.

Burr
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

There are many so called “Christians” who frankly have no real concern for anyone outside of their family and some others they may seem to care about.

No.. these very REAL Christians care more about others than a phony like you. They want their gay brothers and sisters to share in the joy of love, instead of denying them one of life’s greatest pleasures. Instead of being selfish, denying reality, and demanding that their fellow travelers in the human experience surrender to their childish fantasies, they accept and love them as their own.

Jim Scott
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

To Timothy and others;

I am a Christian. I believe the Bible is the revelation of the only God.

In John 14:6 Jesus said “I am they way, and the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me.”

Jesus really lived and died and was resurrected. That is my hope and faith.
He was on this earth either a Liar, a Lunatic, or LORD (God). Your eternal destiny is based on what you believe or do not believe. MY dsire is the same as God’s: I do not want anyone to perish.
There is no other religion that offers that hope because they are false religions. They are based on works. Mine is based on faith which is demonstrated by trying to do good works.

Ephesians 2:8-10 ‘i MEAN THAT YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH BELIEVING. YOU DID NOT SAVE YOURSELVES; IT WAS A GIFT FROM GOD. IT IS NOT THE RESULT OF YOUR OWN EFFORTS, SO YOU CAN NOT BRAG ABOUT IT. GOD HAS MADE US WHAT WE ARE, IN CHRIST JESUS, GOD HAS MADE US WHAT WE ARE. IN CHRIST JESUS, GOD MADE US TO DO GOOD WORKS,WHICH GOD PLANNED IN ADVANCE FOR US TO LIVE OUR LIVES DOING.”

It is almost Christmas. I celibrate the birth of my savior. My prayer is that as many other people as will, will also celibrate the birth of the Savior.

Jarred
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

There is no other religion that offers that hope because they are false religions. They are based on works. Mine is based on faith which is demonstrated by trying to do good works.

I’d like to point out that making a distinction between “saved by works” and “saved by faith which is demonstrated by trying to do good works” seems like an awful lot of hair splitting. And they’re extremely fine hairs at that.

Of course, I’d also note that part of the issue is that you’re assuming all religions are about “salvation” anyway. That simply isn’t that the case. My own religion is relatively uninterested in the afterlife. Instead, it is focused on building bonds, strengthening relationships, and making the world around us a better place. It’s about the here and now, because the afterlife will take care of itself. (Actually, in my religion, the afterlife is a return to this life.)

It always amazes me what a narrow understanding of religions people tend to have. They tend to assume they’re all like the one they follow (or are most familiar with). Except where they’re different enough to make them “false,” of course. ;)

Priya Lynn
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Jim said “He was on this earth either a Liar, a Lunatic, or LORD”.

Or fiction – those aren’t the only three choices.

Burr
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Your eternal destiny is based on what you believe or do not believe.

Not necessarily. Even if God exists, there’s the possibility He doesn’t give a damn what we believe.

MY dsire is the same as God’s: I do not want anyone to perish.

If God doesn’t want anyone to perish, why is He sending people to perish for such a triviality in the scheme of things?

Timothy Kincaid
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

It is so very sad that Jim Scott celebrates the birth of his Lord, but denies his Lord’s message.
He delights in the story of the virgin and the star and the angels and the shepherds, but ignores the commandment that the baby grew to give.

I think Jim would like Jesus a whole lot more if He had just kept His mouth shut. Jim’s glad to no longer have to sacrifice an animal, but he sure doesn’t want to sacrifice his pride.

Tommy
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Frankly it is amazing to me what kind of petty deity certain sects of Christianity has created. The God that Mr. Scott seems to be so enamored of is someone who refuses to offer proof of his existence, and then punishes people for not believing in him. We are talking about a deity that punishes people for being raised their whole lives (up to their deaths) in a region of the world with little to no influence from Christianity. And, if Young Earth Creationism is true, then a God who is actively lying to humanity. That’s neither loving, nor merciful, instead it is petty and egotistical. I’d wager that such a deity is unworthy of being worshiped.

Jason D
December 22nd, 2009 | LINK

Jim, comparing homosexuality to an addiction is completely laughable. There is nothing in the way homosexuals respond to homosexuality that is so drastically different than the way heteros respond to heterosexuality. To do so shows a complete ignorance to the fact.

Nevermind the reality that alcoholism is debatable as a disease, let’s look at it’s manifestation.

-An alcoholic is not born with an attraction to alcohol — homosexuals ARE. To put it a different way, you’re not likely to meet someone who knows they’re an alcoholic while never ever having had any alcohol. Whereas you will meet gay virgins. All of us were at some point.

-Alcholism is an addiction to a substance, what substance are LGBT people addicted to? We don’t all have the same sex drive or enjoy the same sexual activities.

Alcoholism is really just self-gratification gone too far. People experience an inability to moderate their intake, frequency, and it alters their personality drastically when they’re using. There are people who can enjoy alcohol responsibly, without ill effects. Just as there are those who can enjoy, sex, drugs, and gambling (three common addictions) responsibly and without ill effects. Yet I doubt your complaint is that our homosexuality has “gone too far” and that’s where the addiction comes in. In fact, most homosexuals do not suffer the ills commonly associated with any addiction. Our homosexuality doesn’t impair our ability to drive, to have meaningful relationships, to hold down a job, manage our money, or to take care of ourselves.

Jim Scott
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

The reason I made a comment had to do with my being called a liar and my remarks comical. I do not hate homosexuals or anybody else. What I have gathered from various comments is a basic denial of what is revealed in the Bible. Some comments are from those who openly declare they do not believe in Jesus Christ. Some may even believe He never existed. History proves that He did. This very date is evidence that some 2009 years ago we started counting the days till He returns.

I serve a living Lord. He is not dead.
Some 32 years ago I made Him the the Lord of my life.

Paul said in 2nd Timothy 1:12, “I am suffering now because I tell the Good News, but I am not ashamed, because I KNOW Jesus, the ONE in whom I have believed. And I am sure He is able to protect what He has trusted me with until that day.”

We are all sinners. Only one sin causes you to perish, and that is the sin of unbelief.

Priya Lynn
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Jim said “Some may even believe He never existed. History proves that He did.”.

Bzzzt – wrong answer, LOL.

Jim said ” Only one sin causes you to perish, and that is the sin of unbelief.”.

It is grotesquely immoral to punish someone for a thought crime. While I may not be able to absolutely prove that some god of some sort doesn’t exist, the god you believe in can’t exist any more than a square circle can.

A just and loving god who allows him and his religion of choice to be questionable and then eternally tortures people for innocently believing they don’t is an impossibility.

Jim Scott
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

To: Priya Lynn

Jesus was and is a Historical Fact.
H. G. Wells was far from being a Christian and yet he wrote of the historical Jesus in his book The Outline of History.

Priya Lynn
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

LOL, Jim, your saying its so won’t make it so. That you’d use the example of H.G. Wells shows that you’ll accept nonsense as proof that Jesus actually existed. Wells didn’t live at the alleged time of Jesus, he was in no position to make clames about the veracity of the story.

Unlike other figures in history there are no extra-biblical accounts of the existence of Jesus. And please don’t bring up the tired old excuses of Josephus and Tacitus. They were both born long after the supposed death of Jesus and as such couldn’t have been eyewittnesses. The Josephus reference is clearly a forgery and Tacitus is merely repeating what Christians had told him.

Note in the link below the yellow portion lists 42 historians from the time or 1 century after Jesus. None of them made any mention of him. These historians made note of all manner of the most trivial of figures of the time. That all of them failed to notice a figure who allegedly drew huge crowds, performed miracles, and was a major thorn in the side of the authorities simply isn’t believable.

http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html

Jesus never existed, and your willingness to accept the blue sky as proof that he did won’t change that fact.

Ken R
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Your eternal destiny is based on what you believe or do not believe.

This sentence is the very key too why so many fundamentalist/evangelical christians think the way they do. If you don’t have your beliefs 100% correctly inline to correct interpretation (we must assume they mean their interpretation) you are Hell bound. I have heard this many times from these christians both personally and online.

One misbelief or scriptural error sends you straight to Hell. No wonder these christians are always living in constant fear and making sure they have everything 100% correct. Anything less you are taking the Hell bound train. So sad.

Timothy Kincaid
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Priya Lynn,

You are arguing that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Basically, your argument is that no one at the time of Christ mentioned his existence other than those who did and therefore he must not have existed.

You are, of course, entitled to believe anything you choose.

Timothy Kincaid
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Jim,

Here’s what I find amusing:

No one here has suggested that they hate you. Further, they evidence this by refusing to try and pass laws imposing their beliefs on you. And yet you assume the martyr position by dramatically declaring, “it does not surprise me that hatred towards Jesus is directed towards me.”

But you, who seek to impose your personal belief code on others through the force of law assert, “I do not hate homosexuals or anybody else.”

Poor silly foolish man. I think that you are confused about the meaning of the word “hate”.

I find it amusing when anti-gay activists argue that they “don’t hate”. I always wonder, exactly how would things be different if they did hate?

Would their political or social position be any different? Would they be any more condescending? Would they be any more likely to go to a gay website, declare everyone there to be sinners, condemn them to hell, and ignore the commandments of Christ to treat them the way they want to be treated (something that you have been consistently ignoring)?

Yes, I know that they would “feel” different inside.

But how, exactly, would an anti-gay activist having hate be any different TO US than the way they are right now?

Priya Lynn
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Timothy the suggestion that absense of evidence isn’t evidence of absense makes a certain assumption that one hasn’t looked for that evidence or that it’s not easily found. When one has made an extensive search for evidence that should be easily found and there is none, that is a strong suggestion that the thing does not exist.

I am not arguing that “no one at the time of Christ mentioned his existence other than those who did and therefore he must not have existed.” – that is a charicature of the position. The point is that there is NO ONE at the time apart from the bible who mentioned him, not that there were some that did and some that didn’t. If the story of Jesus were true its simply inconceivable that this very long list would contain anything but all or most of these historians making mention of him. That none did is highly significant.

Priya Lynn
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

If we were to take the “Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence” mantra at face value one would have to say that its just as likely as not that unicorns, leprechauns, and sasquatch exist. I’m confident that anyone that believes that is part of a very small minority.

Timothy Kincaid
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Priya Lynn,

Let’s not run off together on a hog trail and make this thread about the historical evidence for the person Jesus.

Perhaps that we can agree on the following: evangelical atheists assert that there is no external evidence of the existence of the person of Jesus, but the vast majority of historians believe that evidence is adequate to indicate that such a person existed.

Priya Lynn
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Vast majority? I don’t think so. Many may believe some sort of non-supernatural person named Jesus existed and Christian historians may believe the Jesus/god existed but leave them out and the vast majority of historians don’t believe a Jesus/god existed. The majority of the planet does not believe in a Jesus/god.

Timothy Kincaid
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Priya Lynn,

I believe we were discussing whether a person named Jesus existed. As to whether he was a deity, that is an issue of faith, not historical evidence.

Richard W. Fitch
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Priya – I tried to access the link about the existence of Jesus, but there appears to be an error. Would you repost please.

Priya Lynn
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Jim Scott started this and he was asserting that the Jesus/god existed. Both questions are relevant, whether the Jesus/god exists as well as some non-supernatural person named Jesus – at the time a very common name by the way.

Priya Lynn
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Sorry Richard, my file is a little out of date and that old link is no longer found – here’s the new link:

http://www.atheists.org/Did_Jesus_Exist%3F

Richard W. Fitch
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Priya – Thanks. I’ll want to read this in more detail before I try a meaningful response. First, though, I see Zindler as setting up some straw men that need to be recognized. The Gospels as we have them were never intended to be read as eyewitness biographies. Those who subscribe to the Fundamentalist conviction of the Bible as “the literal, inerrant, infallible Word of God” have created a gross distortion of NT origin and function.

Priya Lynn
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Richard, the gospels are frequently pointed to as proof that Jesus existed. Zindler points out that as non-eyewitness accounts they aren’t proof.

Priya Lynn
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Not that eyewittness acounts are necessarily proof in any event – they are notoriously unreliable.

Priya Lynn
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Richard said “The Gospels as we have them were never intended to be read as eyewitness biographies.”.

Upon taking a closer read of the link I gave – this is not the case and Richard is contradicted by John 21:24

“This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.”

Priya Lynn
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

*Scholars have shown that the gospel of John originally ended at verses 30-31 of Chapter 20.

Jim Scott
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

You may not think it is true, but Jesus’ Holy Spirit lives in me.

Most of the world’s population believe in God and of those who believe over half of them believe in Jesus.

I am sure there are many homosexuals who believe also in God. Here is the catch: The Bible says in Romans; “That while we yet sinners Christ died for us.” God gave all He had, namely His Son
to pay the penalty for our sins. There is nothing left for us to do except repent and believe in Jesus Christ. I can condemn no one and do not want to. I simply am called to warn people of the penalty for their unbelief. If I did not care,I would say nothing and stop going to other parts of the world trying to lead people to Christ. God has blessed the effort with hundreds of changed hearts.

While at LIA a young man who was not only gay but a male prostitute came to me for baptism. I said Billy “Why do you want to be baptized?” He told me “so his sins could be washed away”.
I explained that water will not cleanse you. Only the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Billy trusted in Jesus Christ and was saved. Then I bapized him as instructed: “In the name of the Father,the Son, and the Holy Spirit”.

Write me at:
jimscottministries@yahoo.com

Timothy Kincaid
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Jim,

If you put one tenth as much effort into caring for the bodies of those around you as you do about converting their souls and convincing them to “believe”, you might possibly begin to see what Jesus really was about.

I find it horrifying that you note that Billy was a prostitute, but you don’t even consider for a moment why. Most young gay men that sell their bodies do not do so out of laziness, greed, or avarice. They do so because they have been kicked out of their homes, their churches, and their communities. Left with no money, no skills, and no network of support, they have few options on how to feed themselves.

Rather than chide Billy for his misunderstanding of scripture, you should have repented and begged his forgiveness for contributing to the cause of his desperation.

Alex
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Jim,

And whatever happened to Billy, if he even exists? Do you still keep in touch with him to see if he is still “no longer gay”?

Priya Lynn
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

Jim, you may not think its true, but Santa’s spirit of goodness lives in me.

Christians believe Jesus was a god, a minority of the world believes in that god:

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul07/paul07_index.html

Jim said “I simply am called to warn people of the penalty for their unbelief”.

Jim, LGBTs have heard that countless times, you’re not warnning anyone, you’re merely harrassing them with a tired old tale.

John
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

I find it amazing that Jim Scott equates a post challenging his “gay to straight” success rate lie as being comical as a statement of disbelief in God. Talk about unbridled hubris. Anytime anyone challenges anything this guy says (no matter how rediculous), it is the equivalent of not believing in God? That could only be true, if Jim Scott were God.

So Jim, is that what you are really saying???

Jason D
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK


Most of the world’s population believe in God and of those who believe over half of them believe in Jesus.”

FALSE:

This article shows that the percentage of world population that is Christian is about 32-33 percent.

The article mentions that Christianity isn’t fairing so well noting:

” However, Christianity has been in a very slow decline for years as a percentage of world population. Weigel states: “…Christians were 34.5 percent of world population in 1900, and will be 33.1 percent in 2002.”

But if you don’t believe that, here’s a different source from the Archdiocese of Los Angeles: “Of the 6.4 billion people on Planet Earth, some 2.1 billion, or 33.1 percent, are Christians of one sort or another. ”

“I am sure there are many homosexuals who believe also in God. Here is the catch: The Bible says in Romans; “That while we yet sinners Christ died for us.” God gave all He had, namely His Son
to pay the penalty for our sins. There is nothing left for us to do except repent and believe in Jesus Christ. I can condemn no one and do not want to. I simply am called to warn people of the penalty for their unbelief.”

When I was a child, my brother figured out that he could get me to do his chores or other things if he just said “Mom told me to tell you to clean the toilet!” All he had to do is invoke a higher authority,

It only worked a few times. I soon figured out that if Mom wanted me to clean the bathroom, she’d just tell me to do it. Often, when actually talking to Mom, I’d discover that she was either being intentionally misquoted – “You boys need to clean the bathroom” or that her command was completely fabricated.

It worked because at first, he were able to invoke the authority of Mom or Dad unquestioningly. To question the command was to question Mom and Dad themselves!! “You’re going to get in trouble if you don’t clean the bathroom right now, Mom said!” and he was also able to avoid responsibility for his commands as well “It wasn’t me, it was Mom who said you had to clean the toilet, I’m just telling you what she told me to tell you.”

Jim, you’ll have to pardon me if you sound EXACTLY like my brother using the same strategy.

Believe it or not, I have talked to God. I have asked on many occasions if my being gay is wrong. In response, God has blessed me with a loving, respectful, funny, and compassionate partner. I have been blessed with a relationship that strengthens me and has actually made me a better, more mature and responsible person. We’ve been together almost four years with no drama, no fights, and no games. It’s been rough, but that’s because of outside influence, job loss,car problems, family issues, money problems — the things that most couples have to deal with. But us? We’re fine.

You can point to as many phrases in as many books as you can find. You can quote mistranslated, endlessly edited, 3rd-hand accounts of things that happened millenia ago till the cows come home. I have given God endless opportunities to tell me that what I am doing is wrong, and all I’ve heard is silence. All I’ve seen is day after day chock full of evidence that my life is glorious the way it is. God has given me a wonderful love, and no MAN is going to tell me to give that gift back. Certainly no man who can’t be bothered to get his facts straight.

Jason D
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

drat, first link doesn’t seem to be working. Here’s the address:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

Burr
December 23rd, 2009 | LINK

The last two paragraphs of your comment are EXACTLY how I feel, Jason D. Thank you for putting it in such wonderful prose.

Jim Scott
December 24th, 2009 | LINK

I have lost touch with Billy. I assure that he is real person. God’s Holy Spirit convicted him of his sins and he repented and trusted Christ to save him.
Whether or not he has slipped back into his old behaviors, I do not know. I do know this; God does not go back on His promises. Billy was sincere in trusting Jesus to save him. If he has wondered off, he is still God’s child.

The problem with many of you is that you refuse to ask forgiveness for what God calls sin and you have never personally trusted Christ to save you from the eternal penalty of unbelief and the powerful control you live under.

Merry Christmas

Priya Lynn
December 24th, 2009 | LINK

Jim, people who aren’t hurting anyone have no need to ask anyone for forgiveness. You have nothing to offer but empty threats – you’re never going to win anyone to your side with hate.

Scott P.
December 24th, 2009 | LINK

I know this forum is supposed to be open to all, but I honestly think certain people, such as this preacher and Quo need to be banned, not as a matter of censorship, but simply to keep things on topic. Their arguments add nothing to the dialog. I’m talked and chatted with many people of “faith” but when they refuse to answer question directly, or refuse to consider what points I may be making I stop wasting my time with them. I’ve come to realize that all I’m doing is feeding their egos and need for attention. As the internet saying goes “Don’t feed the trolls.”

Priya Lynn
December 24th, 2009 | LINK

Well, I’m not sure about banning, but these constant warnings that you shouldn’t be gay or you’ll be eternally tortured certainly appear to be a direct violation of the Box Turtle Bulletin comments policy which says comments may be deleted, or commenters banned or moderated for “Threats, direct or implied.”

For those of you who believe in a god before you take the hate-filled threats of people like Jim Scott seriously consider that there are no originals of the bible and the copies have been copied many times over frequently by people with an agenda. Sometimes those people make their own additions, the most recent example of which is the addition of the word “homosexual” to the bible, a word that never even existed prior to a century or so ago. Clearly people recently have modified the bible to make it more anti-gay and it wouldn’t be surprising if its happened in the past as well.

If you believe there’s a god, ask yourself what that god is like. Is he/she a just and loving god, or a vain arbitrary monster? Ask yourself if punishment should fit the crime or if it should be as heavy handed as conceivably possible for the most minor of offences. Would the god you know eternally torture someone merely for thinking the wrong thing, or for an act of same sex love that harms no one? Of course not, its inconceivable, a god like that simply cannot exist and you have no need to worry about the threats a man whose life is so unhappy he seeks to destroy your happiness because misery loves company.

Merry Christmas everyone.

cowboy
December 24th, 2009 | LINK

I’m doubt there is any genuine sincerity when some people worry about my eternal salvation and then ignore the real evils in our midst: War. Hunger. Hate. God must be annoyed at the priorities some people have.

The conflict really comes down to knowledge versus intentional ignorance. I am constantly amazed at how many people really don’t know what homosexuality is. It grates my nerves when some non-homo tries to tell me what I am. I think I pretty much know what being a homo is all about. I’m a professional homo after all.

By the way, Priya, I appreciate what you said about “reasonableness” as a factor in our judicial system. So.very.true.

Merry Christmas everyone. (echo echo echo echo)

Timothy Kincaid
December 24th, 2009 | LINK

Jim

The problem with many of you is that you refuse to ask forgiveness for what God calls sin and you have never personally trusted Christ to save you from the eternal penalty of unbelief and the powerful control you live under.

Merry Christmas

OMG. I think you didn’t even realize the irony of that. Hilarious!!!

Are you sure you are really Jim Scott and not a clever parody?

Timothy Kincaid
December 24th, 2009 | LINK

To those who think that Jim Scott is making off-thread comments, you may wish to note that the topic of the thread is… Jim Scott, himself.

So I’m giving him a great deal of leeway in commenting.

Jim Scott
December 26th, 2009 | LINK

To: Timothy Kincaid

I appreaciate your “giving me a great deal of leeway in commenting”. As to my making “off-thread comments” and “the thread is ..Jim Scott, himself”, I think you have totally misunderstood my intentions. I read comments from people who I know do not know God. As a person who loves and does not hate I am not concerned about your sin: I am concerned about your soul. I have been where you are. I have been at a state where I believed that if I was not trying to hurt someone, I was not a sinner. My education caused me to doubt everything I was told about God. Although I believed there must have been a Creator, I did not believe He had anything to do with me.

I will not bore any of you with all the sordid details of my past. About the people who told me I needed to believe in Jesus Christ, but when I was 31 years old I became a believer and got saved.

Most of you are like people in a car headed for disaster, because the bridge is out ahead. Someone trys to warn you, but you ignore the warning and speed ahead.

This dialog is not about me. It is between peoople and God. Their is a Savior.

Timothy Kincaid
December 26th, 2009 | LINK

Jim,

I do know why you think you are here. You believe that you are evangelizing, spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am saddened that you see gay people the way that you do. But I am sorrowed that you see God in the way that you do. What an unhappy existence to see your brothers and sisters as evil and your god as arbitrary and demanding.

I will pray for you, Jim.

Burr
December 26th, 2009 | LINK

Oh goodie another born-again.

Sorry, but I’m tired of being lectured by people who needed to be spoonfed “Morality for Dummies” after hitting rock bottom. People like you have no standing to preach to people like me, who have known right from wrong a lot longer than you have.

To correct your car metaphor, I’m already on the road to happiness. You are the devil, reaching for the steering wheel and trying to send me careening off into the chasm of self-loathing and suicide.

John
December 26th, 2009 | LINK

So, Jim, what does being saved and accepting God have to do with lying about gay to straight conversion success rates at Love In Action?

Does God approve of you taking people into Love In Action, accepting money from them, telling them that your “success rate” is 75% when you know that they are going to be as gay the day they leave as when they came in?

Do you tell them that they are spending all this time and money at Love In Action in order to learn how to be celibate?

If your goal is so noble, why must it be built on a foundation of lies?

Jim Scott
December 26th, 2009 | LINK

There are omly two kinds of people:

Lost or Saved

There were one kind of people who come to LIA: People who wanted freedom in Jesus Christ.

You have till this point decided against freedom in Jesus Christ. Satan has you bound you in your sexuality. Your God is your sexuality.

Timothy—don’t pray for me. I am okay.
Pray for nothing but salvation.

At LIA i saw more than 75% graduate with a committment to change their lives. If they were saved, their sins are forgiven. If they failed in the plan for their lives, I guess you are glad.

Homosexual behavior is an abomination to the Holy God who created us. God never created any of us to sin. It is decision we make ourselves.

1st Corinthians 6:9-10

“know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators (those who have sex outside of maraige), nor idolators (those who love anyone or anything more than God),nor adulterers (those who have sex with a married person), nor effeminate {those wmen who take on a womens’s mannerisms and dress), nor abusers of themselves with mankind (homosexuals). Nor theives, nor covetous, now drunkards (alcohol abuses and drug abusers) nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

These are the words of God and not mine.

Let’s just leave it at that.

You can contact me by e-mail.

John
December 26th, 2009 | LINK

Jim wrote: “At LIA i saw more than 75% graduate with a committment to change their lives. If they were saved, their sins are forgiven. If they failed in the plan for their lives, I guess you are glad. ”

It isn’t really a question of me being glad or the participants failing. You told the newspaper that your gay to straight conversion rate was 75%. You didn’t talk about how they were saved by their commitment to celibacy or anything else that might remotely approach truth

Instead of quoting Corinthians (you are really, really fond of Corinthians), I would suggest you review something far more basic in the Bible– the Ten Commandments. The one dealing with “bearing false witness” comes to mind.

The fact that you can’t admit that you deliberately lied to the reporter, leading them to believe that you had a 75% gay to straight conversion rate, for PR purposes says a great deal about Jim Scott as well as Love In Action–and none of it very good.

Timothy Kincaid
December 26th, 2009 | LINK

Jim,

I think we’ll just let your latest declaration stand on its own. That you see yourself as “okay” and the rest of us as lost says volumes.

Richard W. Fitch
December 26th, 2009 | LINK

We might like to ask how the Rev. Scott himself comes out in terms of this passage by Paul. It also includes thieves, slanders and swindlers. As to the terms “malakoi”(effeminate) and “arsenokoitai”(male bed), those who do serious koine Greek studies will tell you the words are obscure and used almost no where else but by Paul in the NT. What Paul’s intent may have been is still open to debate; at least among scholars who do not take the Bible as the “literal, inerrant, infallible Word of God”.
http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/words-matter-1-corinthians-1-timothy/

Jason D
December 26th, 2009 | LINK

“These are the words of God and not mine.”

Actually, they are not. The words in parenthesis are YOUR interpretation, nothing more.

You want us to listen to you, but you don’t want to take responsiblity for the message. The message is yours, and yours alone, not Gods. God didn’t come here, YOU did. God didn’t write all these posts, YOU did. God doesn’t keep petitioning people to email him, YOU do.

Gay does NOT necessarily equal atheist.

Although with people like you constantly passively aggressively threatening us, it’s no surprise there are so many that turn their backs on faith of any kind.

You are just like my brother, threatening me with punishment from on high if I don’t do what YOU want me to do. God is the person who’s authority you have appropriated for your own purposes.

Jim, you are nothing but a frightened, arrogant MAN who has the audacity to speak for God. God does NOT NEED YOU to speak for him. We can and do speak to him all on our own. It is the height of hubris for you to claim we do not know God.

It is not our sexuality that separates us from God, it is busybody, self-righteous, cherry-picking, close-minded, manipulative, Pharisees like you who do.

Take the log out of your own eye before speaking to your brother about the speck in his.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

Over and over and over again God tells you to MIND YOUR OWN BEESWAX. But you refuse to listen. Meanwhile people starve in the streets. Meanwhile children are cold. How much time are you wasting on us that could be better used to fulfill the commands God has ACTUALLY given you?

Burr
December 26th, 2009 | LINK

You have till this point decided against freedom in Jesus Christ. Satan has you bound you in your sexuality. Your God is your sexuality.

Nice projection there. Take a look in the mirror. It is YOU who obsesses over sexuality and chooses to make YOUR sexuality the ONLY definition of godliness.

Jim Scott
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

Why do you reason as you do? It is true that finding the article about me led me to speak up. I did not lie and do not take back the fact that 75% of the people I saw go through the program at LIA graduated with a desire to go sober from their sexual sin. Neither myself or LIA tried to change anyone from being homosexual to heterosexual. You want the rest of soceity to accept what was long illegal behavior and call it normal for your small part of soceity. My concern is for your salvation and the rest of soceity’s salvation. God saves some to pass His Word on to others so that they might be saved also.
I am talking about eternity and you are caught up in this world and your lifestyles. You are no different from heterosexuals in your need for salvation. You simply do not believe you sin so you do not believe there are penalties for your sin. You find fault with me for simply telling you what God says:

Romans 1:16
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth…”

You are shaking your fists in hate towards me but in fact you are turning your back on the God who died for you.

There was a city called Sodom where homosexual behavior was exhibited by all the men. It was destroyed. This world as you know it will be changed when Jesus returns. There will be no more sin; homosexual or heterosexual.

If you do not believe me just read the Bible. If you do not believe all the Bible, how can you believe any of it? You can call me a liar all you want to, but you are on dangerous ground when you call the author of the Bible a liar.

Priya Lynn
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

Jim, the god you describe cannot exist. Gays and lesbians have heard your tired empty threats countless times and your constant repetition of them isn’t going to impress any of them. Your theory that the bible is true because it says its true is just more dumb circular logic.

It is you who’s spreading the hate Jim, your whole life is consumed with the threat of violence. I pity you.

Jim Scott
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

Priya Lynn,

If God gave His Son so you would not have to suffer the wages of sin, why is everybody blaming me?

Romans 6:23

“For the wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God) ; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Now if I want you to have eternal life also, why would you think I hate you?

I do not hate you. I love you. More important is Jesus loves you. He died for me and you.

Timothy Kincaid
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

Richard,

Thank you for the reminder. It is as if Paul condemned Squigglebloop and forever after those looking to condemn gay folks declared, “See! Squigglebloop, right there, see! It means homosexual.”

But I think you are wasting your time arguing with Jim Scott. I don’t think he is qualified to debate koine Greek.

Timothy Kincaid
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

Jim Scott,

You are shaking your fists in hate towards me…

No one is shaking their fists in hate towards you. If anything, we pity you. You are bound by the Law, held captive to your own certainty, and incapable of seeing outside of your own experiences.

That is truly sad.

And even worse, you feel it necessary to translate everything through the prism of “hate”. Unless we all say, “oh, yes Jim, you are right” then you think we hate you. That is the thinking and attitude of a small spoiled child: ‘If you don’t give me the toy a want then you hate me.’

And you cling to your confused understanding of Scripture. In your world, Sodom was a city comprised completely of homosexuals which was literally destroyed by fire and brimstone raining from Heaven. And Lot’s wife physically turned into sodium chloride. And from this literalist belief in what was a morality tale about inhospitality, you find condemnation of gay people and, ironically, a justification for inhospitality.

You have memorized Scripture to use as a tool, a weapon. But you have never really thought about the meaning or purpose of Scripture. You worship the book, the words, rather than see them as a way to know God. Your god is not a loving father, but a book of rules.

What you fail to realize is that the opposite of faith is not doubt, but certainty.

Faith, which gives the courage to challenge, question, and ponder, is outside your grasp. So, like so many Christians who find thinking to be too difficult and who find questioning to be too frightening, you cling to certainty. And fearful that others may have an insight to God that eludes you, you go about insisting that you are right and plugging your ears to any counsel that disagrees with your preconceptions.

That is fine for a small child learning Bible stories in Sunday School. But for an adult, it is soul-damaging. And it is not the way to know or love God.

I’m reminded of a child that has a bedtime. As we mature, we know why there was a bedtime and we know the principle behind the rule. We mature and learn to apply to ourselves the principles that are behind the rules we obeyed as children. But all the child know is that there is a bedtime, a rule, and that it must be followed. It provides a structure, a meaning, and is comforting in its consistency.

You, Jim, see the Bible as a set of rules. You are not yet spiritually mature enough to see principles. So like a child, you insist on the rule. It comforts you to cling to the rule and never have to think. But is isn’t healthy.

I will continue to pray for you, Jim. If you are willing, God can open your eyes and you can grow to be a man spiritually. You can put away the thinking of a child, as Paul says, and embrace the maturity of a faith that is open, growing, questioning, and adult in its perspective.

Richard Rush
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

Jim, you might have some credibility if you could demonstrate that the adoption of your religion came as a result of exhaustive comprehensive unbiased research into all of the world’s religions. Although the research would take years, I don’t know how else a person could legitimately conclude that a particular religion is the correct one. Otherwise, I have to assume that you simply adopted the religion of your parents, or the dominant religion of the social environment in which you live, or maybe you just picked one that felt compatible with your personality. And, if so, your arguments merely come from indoctrination and the contents of a holy book. But all religions involve indoctrination and holy books, so why should I accept yours and reject the others?

Jim Scott
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

Timothy,

My thinking was much like yours 32 years ago.

“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” Hebrews 11:1

The thing that you are unable to grasp because you are “spiritully blind” is faith. You must have logical facts before you can believe. “Believing” is not based on logic. it is based on child like faith. Jesus said “whoever comes to Him must come as a little child”. You are smart but not wise. The wisdom that comes from God is foolishness to you.

Why should I care about you? I have a love in my heart for you and others like you that is in the Greek “agape”. It is impossible to have that love unless it comes from God. In your efforts to insult me, you are actually insulting The God who called me to preach 32 years ago.

Timothy, do you love anyone enough to try and save them? Can you tell them how they can be saved?

There was a song out years ago that contained the lyrics,”I swear there ain’t no heaven, and I pray there ain’t no hell”.

If God should ask you after you pass away, “Why He should let you into heaven”, what would you say?

Timothy Kincaid
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

Jim,

How very sad that you think that faith means believing blindly what you have been told. Accepting without question. Setting aside the mind that God gave you, plugging the ears He provided, and closing the heart that should be open.

Faith means nothing of the kind. It means being open and listening, knowing that God’s grace will guide. It means challenging your own perceptions and letting the Holy Spirit do its work.

If at the end of my earthly days God should demand justification for my life and hold up some giant clipboard listing all of my failures, I will simply respond that I am always welcome in the home of my Father and Creator.

Should God be the god that I think he is, that will suffice. Should he instead by a cold distant bureaucrat looking to see if I’ve ticked all the “be good” boxes and none of the “be bad” boxes, then why would I want to spend eternity with an autocratic despot?

You assume that my goal is to achieve Heaven even if it means worshiping a diety who defines “love” as demanding unthinking obedience and blind adherence to rules, who considers His creation as toys to discard and subjects to torment like some ancient blood-thirsty demon who wreaks havok on those who don’t offer victims on its altar.

If God is who I think he is, then I have no worries. If he’s who you think he is, I want nothing to do with him nor would I want to spend eternity worshipping a being that is not worthy of worship.

Jim Scott
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

Richard,

I previously stated that until the age 0f 31 I was not a Christian. In college I became convinced that all religion was a bunch of nonsense.

I have studied most other religions. You find they are based more on ideas and works rather than a person. I am not really very religious and what I believe is not based on what some other person taught. I serve a living God by faith. I invited Him into my heart. His Spirit is inside me. I have absolute confidence that when I die I will go to heaven. I try to do good works,but I rea;ize I can never be good enough.

When the time was right, the Holy spirit convicted me of my sins. I repented and put my faith in Jesus Christ to save me. He put His Spirit in me as a seal against the devil and all his deception. Once converted I made a decision concerning the Bible. It goes like this:

If God said it——-in His Word
then that settles it—-in my mind
whether anyone else believes it or not.

There was a man named David who sinned greatly in murder and adultery. David wrote the 51st Psalm in which he said regarding his sin:

“Agaist thee and against thee only have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight:
that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest”

The idea of judging carries with it the ability to condemn or punish someone else. None of us can condemn someone else. I am not trying to condemn anyone.
I just want people everywhere to come to faith in the Lord before as the verse above says, God judges them.

Jim Scott
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

Timothy,

You just don’t get it, do you?

God sent His son and you reject Him.
What else could he have ever done for you?

You may not like the prospects of a God who says He has prepared things for you that you can not comprehend, but I assure you do not want the alternative.

John
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

Poor Jim Scott. He is the one that doesn’t get it. Rejection of Jim Scott is not necessarily rejection of God. It doesn’t appear that Jim Scott can tell the difference.

I was always taught that God gets to decide who goes to Heaven. It never occurred to me that he turned that responsiblity over to a mere mortal like Jim Scott who couldn’t possibly have the breadth of understanding of the lives, decisions, experiences and motivations of the people he so confidently condemns to Hell. He has repeatedly declared people on this thread as condemned to Hell, despite knowing nothing about them.

Jim lies about his work (claiming a 75% success rate in changing people from gay to straight which he acknowledges in this thread isn’t true) and claims unjustified authority to judge others. I would encourage him to find peace and Honesty in his own life rather than harrassing others.

Burr
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

Where is Timothy rejecting God or Jesus?

You subscribe to the false notion that if you do not accept what other mere fallible mortals like you say about God and Jesus then you don’t believe in them.

Why do YOU reject people’s own personal relationships with their maker?

Priya Lynn
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

Jim, you don’t know what love is. Christians like you have bastardized the meaning of love, you can’t love someone you don’t know. To you love is a cheap trivial thing that you claim to have for everyone, leaving it with no value at all. Your concept of love is one where you seek to control others with threats and intimidation. You don’t know love, what real love is. All you know is hate and threats. Again, I pity someone with a life as empty as yours. You are devoid of happiness and you seek to deprive others of their happiness because misery loves company.

Jim Scott
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

Priya,

You know nothing of my life other than what you imagine. The facts are I am happily married , have four children, and four grandchildren. Although I am retired I still teach and travel on mission trips around the world. My life is not only happy but fullfilled.

Hatred comes from those who can not love like the love that God bestows.
Jesus said “If you love me you will keep my commandments”. I see many of the GLBT movement doing and saying everything to circumvent what the majority of the world believes is wrong behavior. I have said much more about the importance of going to heaven than I have about the sin of homosexual behavior. There are many sins and the Bible says we are all sinners. I have simply been saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ. The opportunity is open to all. If you perish it is your decision not mine.

There was a man named Jonah who God told to warn the people of Ninevah. After he ran from God and had to spend three days in a big fish, he reluctantly warned them and the whole city was saved. I have no intention of spending any time in a big fish. You have been warned.

Richard W. Fitch
December 27th, 2009 | LINK

“I tell Jews to remain as Jews and Muslims to remain as Muslims. Jesus has taught me that you are worthy to be loved as you are, you have the right to be different from me and you still be loved. It is only by accepting you, loving you and witnessing to my own faith in Christ before you that I can be saved.” ~Elias Chacour (Palestinian Catholic priest and Israeli citizen)

Jim Scott
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Richard

“Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me.” John 14:6

We are commanded to love everyone, Jesus did. He died for everyone, but it requires faith in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then repentance to be saved.

Priya Lynn
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Jim said “If you perish it is your decision not mine.”.

Jim, you are going to perish just as surely as I am. There is no heaven and there is no hell, you’re going to die and that will be the end of you. The difference between us is that I will not have wasted my life living to the dictates of ancient bronze age bigots.

The majority of the world once thought the earth was flat, their attitude about gays will accept the truth just as surely in time. The essence of morality is do whatever you want but harm no one. Gays in loving relationships by definition are behaving morally. Your attempts to destroy those relationships are by definition immoral. You are an evil man and the world will be a better place when the likes of you are gone.

Jason D
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

It would appear to me that Jim thinks he’s God. Notice how he doesn’t like to be questioned or critiqued. He sees every question or critique as if we are questioning God. He doesn’t quite understand or grasp that to question Jim is NOT to question God, but rather to question Jim’s interpretation of God.

I might read Charles Dickens’ “Great Expecations” and come to you saying that the main character’s name is Gordon Shumlush and that it is the story of how Gordon invents the iPod. Critiquing my understanding of the book is not the same as saying it’s a bad book, or that Dickens can’t write for squat. It is a critique of me, my reading comprehension, and my ability to relay that information.

Jim doesn’t get this. He’s arrogant enough to think that because he seems to think he’s God’s messenger, he can’t be critiqued or questioned. That we should just believe him because he says we should believe him.

To put it bluntly, Jim, we don’t let serial killers murder people and then blame their actions on God — they often say “God told me to kill those people” just as you seem to be saying “God told me to tell you these things”. Sorry, we’re all responsible for our actions and words, we don’t get to blame them on somebody else because it’s convenient. Neither do you.

Richard W. Fitch
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Ad Coelum
by Harry Romaine

At the Muezzin’s call for prayer
The kneeling faithful thronged the square,
And on Pushkara’s lofty height
The dark priest chanted Brahama’s might.

Amid a monastry’s weeds
An old Franciscan told his beads;
While to the synagogue there came,
A Jew, to praise Jehovah’s name.

The one great God looked down and smiled
And counted each His loving child;
For Turk and Brahmin, monk and Jew
Had reached Him through the gods they knew.

Timothy Kincaid
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Jim,

You know nothing of my life other than what you imagine.

This is true.

But do you not see that exactly the same can be said to you. You know nothing whatsoever about our lives.

Jesus said “If you love me you will keep my commandments”.

Yes, and as I have said over and over, you refuse to follow Jesus’ commandments.

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

and

Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:

Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied:
‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Jim,

You have repeatedly ignored it when I have mentioned these commandments. You act as though I’ve not written anything at all.

Perhaps that is because these Scriptures tug at your conscience? Perhaps it is because you fear that you really don’t love Christ at all?

Scott P.
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Pardon me, but I thought the subject of this thread was the claim of a “75 % cure” rate, not the religious leanings of the person who made that asinine statement. To live a celibate life is not the same as to become heterosexual. This constant back and forth achieves nothing. This person refuses to back up his claim and refuses to justify his use of misleading interpretations of the word “cure” and so I submit, again, that blocking his unresponsive comments is appropriate. He’s like the bully that grabs his victim’s hand and slaps the other with it while asking “Why are you hitting yourself?” He can’t fathom that we’re not going to kowtow to his belief system, or that we’re going to call his bluff. While I believe that an “echo chamber” is uncalled for (and undesirable) I also think actual discussion of the subject should be required.

Priya Lynn
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Yes, that’s correct Scott, contrary to what Timothy said the subject of this post was the comically high success rate Jim Scott claimed, not Jim Scott himself.

Timothy Kincaid
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Scott P. and Priya Lynn,

The decisions about what is to be allowed on this site are rightly left to the authors of this site.

Scott P.
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

So, the policy is whatever you say it is at any given time? Is that a correct assessment? I’m sincerely just trying to have this clarified for me. Because that seems to be a double-standard, one rule for the moderators, one set for everyone else.

You don’t seem to like to be corrected in anyway, is that a fair assessment?

I’m fairly certain you know this round-and-round discussion with J. Scott is pointless, so why do you continue it? Is it an effort to out-holier-than-thou this person?

You cut people of “faith” a lot of slack, but not atheists or agnostics. Are you willing to tell us why?

And while it is true you are one of the “authors” of this site you have opened it to public debate. Doesn’t that imply you should follow the rules you set for others? Just asking.

Your last statement to Priya Lynn and myself seems to indicate an irritation with our requests that you fulfill your function as a moderator. Can you explain why?

I think you provide a valuable service, but allowing this thread to become a debate of whose faith is purer is not constructive.

I fully expect to be put on probation for these questions, but I honestly think each one of them is fair and valid.

Priya Lynn
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Timothy, I’m not overly concerned with what you do or don’t allow on this thread, but if you are saying you’re allowing Jim’s posts because he is the subject of this thread, that’s not the case.

Richard W. Fitch
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

I agree with Priya and Scott P wholeheartedly on this; however, I can also see Timothy’s point of view. I’ll make a suggestion – BTB has done it before. Start a separate thread to discuss Jim and the religious/theological issues, but keep the current thread open for addressing the initial issues, primarily the question regarding the 75% success rate that LIA and Rev Scott assert to be valid.

Timothy Kincaid
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

The decisions about what is to be allowed on this site are rightly left to the authors of this site.

Jim Scott
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Let’s grt something straight. I nor LIA ever claimed to turn homosexuals into heterosexuals. Although I have seen it happen with many.

I never said anything about turning homosexuals into “straight” people. The Commercial Appeal did as you are doing, drawing a conclusion from my statement about the programs success rate. This was never in quotation marks as the statements regarding our graduation vs dropouts of being 75% or better..
I have already explained that LIA never claimed to change someone’s sexual orientation. The graduates made a committment to change their behavior. Your calling me a liar is unfounded and your way of twisting truths to justify your own behavior.

Your behavior is between you and God. Any personal decision to reject salvation in Jesus Christ is yours to make. I and billions of others know Jesus Christ personally and we have a relationship with Him. No other “religion” offers a relationship with God the Father. All other religions are false and offer no guarantee of eternal life. I have quoted Jesus’ own words about Him being the “way to the Father”. It does no good to get mad at me. I’m not your problem.

Someday “every knee will bow” to Jesus.
If you have not accepted His plan for salvation, you are without hope. Jesus said that many will come in that day and say Lord we did thus and thus in your name. Jesus sais that He will tell them “Depart from me. I never knew you”.
He went on further to say “Ther will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”.

Don’t wait for the judgement to give the Lord your heart.

Priya Lynn
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Jim said “All other religions are false and offer no guarantee of eternal life.”.

That’s what all the other religions say about your religion.

Timothy Kincaid
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

So, Jim, if I understand you correctly, “success” is defined as “didn’t drop out”.

Now, that’s a mighty peculiar definition. And so it is pretty easy to see how the Memphis Commercial Appeal – and everyone else on the planet – was confused.

So I have to ask, Jim, did you write to the paper correcting their misunderstanding? Did you do anything to try and let folks know that no, you do not turn gay folk straight?

Or were you content with readers having such a misunderstanding?

And as for your knowing “many” homosexuals who turned into heterosexuals, you’ll have to forgive me if I’m skeptical.

You see, I’ve read the Jones and Yarhouse book and follow up report. And the kind of heterosexuals that they reported requires a unique and peculiar definition of heterosexual, i.e. one which still has generalized same-sex attractions but doesn’t have generalized opposite-sex attractions.

That’s both the amusing and the pathetic thing about ex-gay ministries: they have a vocabulary of words that mean just about the opposite of what the rest of the world thinks they mean.

“Success” means not changing orientation

“Heterosexual” means still being attracted to the same sex

and “Love” means a constant effort to harm lives and take away rights.

Priya Lynn
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Timothy said “The decisions about what is to be allowed on this site are rightly left to the authors of this site.”.

Yes, heard that already and am not disagreeing with you. My point was that your rational for allowing Jim’s posts was that he was the subject of that thread and that is not the case and therefore your rational is illogical.

Jim Scott
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Timothy,
Timothy,

Why are you and others so opposed to the idea that someone feels bad enough about their sexuality that they would even think about changing it? I sense an anger toward anyone who is actively homosexual being bothered by their behavior. If I am right and God declares his displeasure about any kind of sex outside of marraige, ie, adultery, fornication, child molestation, sex with animals, and homosexual behavior plus others—-
is it beyond your comprehension that the Holy Spirit convicts people of unrighteous behavior?

One of the “acid tests” of knowing yoour saved has to do with being bothered by sin— in yourself and others. I can never enter my prayer time without first asking forgiveness of my own sins—which are many. The other “tests” have to do with an awareness of the Holy Spirit inside of you.

Burr
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Man do you ever take anyone’s words for what they are instead of twisting them into something else?

There’s no anger expressed at the people suckered into such schemes (it’s understandable after all the unjustified shame heaped upon them since an early age and the realization that one is different), but at the schemers who are taking advantage of them.

You keep dodging what people are saying and attacking strawmen because you are uncomfortable with the truth that cuts down deep into your false beliefs and exposes them for what they are, self-important arrogance.

Priya Lynn
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Yawn…Jim, why don’t you do something worthwhile with your life? Help the homeless, collect for the poor, work against domestic violence. LGBTs have heard your threats of eternal torture dozens of times, what good do you think you’re doing by repeating the same tired old thing ad nauseam?

We’ve heard your hate countless times. You compare gayness to adultery and child molestation. That’s hateful Jim. Gayness is nothing like that, gayness hurts no one whereas adultery and child molestation hurts other people. Only an evil person would pretend to see no difference and equate these three things. You’d be ashamed of yourself if you had any morals.

Jim, its time you did something worthwhile with your life instead of trying to deprive others of the happiness that so obviously eludes you.

Timothy Kincaid
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Jim,

I have no problem whatsoever with individuals who wish to live in accordance with their own religious values. If you think that God wants you to be celibate, I’ve no beef with that at all.

I respect those who participate at the Gay Christian Network who believe that teaching (Side B).

But I have no respect for liars, fibbers, prevaricators, quibblers, and other tellers of false tales, especially those who do so in the name of God.

So I repeat my questions. Although I fear that you think that you are too holy and good to answer, I’ll keep asking:

did you write to the paper correcting their misunderstanding? Did you do anything to try and let folks know that no, you do not turn gay folk straight?

Or were you content with readers having such a misunderstanding?

And why is it that you refuse to address the commandment of Christ?

Is it because these Scriptures tug at your conscience? Is it because you fear that you really don’t love Christ at all?

You have a lot of Scripture to quote, Jim, but I don’t see a lot of Christ. Maybe you need to check the pH balance on your acid tests.

Jim Scott
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

None of the comments I have read come from anyone who is not deceived.

Jesus said: “All that the Father gives to Me, comes to Me. And he that comes to me , I will in no wise cast out”.

I leave you with these final words:
You will never get society to regard you as normal in your behavior. Your only chance for acceptance is in Christ.

Burr
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Coward.

And we’re already accepted in many places in this country and around the world.

Timothy Kincaid
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

You will never get society to regard you as normal in your behavior.

Currently the country is about 50/50 split on whether homosexuality is “moral”. A Pew poll in October found that about 49% say it’s “morally wrong” and about 44% say that either it’s “morally fine” or not a moral issue at all. A Gallup poll in 2008 also found an even split, 48% for each position.

A few other interesting findings are found in a Gallop poll from May 2009:

* 69% of Americans in favor of military service by openly gay men and lesbians.

* 67% say gay and lesbian domestic partners should have access to health insurance and other employee benefits.

* 73% believe gay and lesbian domestic partners should have inheritance rights.

* 67% favor a proposal to expand hate-crime laws to cover crimes committed against gays or lesbians.

And Jim Scott thinks that we are deceived.

Priya Lynn
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Jim in the U.S. most people accept that there is nothing wrong with being gay. The trends show the rest of the world will catch up – no one can sincerely believe there is something wrong with those who harm no one. A life such as yours spent spreading hate is a life wasted.

Burr
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Like most evil people, Jim Scott preys on the weak. When he encounters strong, principled resistance, he fails to address it, then ultimately turns tail and runs away in shame.

Jim Scott
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

I have absolutely no objection to people having equal rights in any area.

I do not hate anyone.

If you think I am a coward and a liar and evil, I would be glad to sit down with you individually or as a group.
If that is not your desire then you can continue to shout your hatred to someone who only wants you to be able to go to heaven. It really does not matter what you do otherwise.

John
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

It would appear that he has no intention of telling the truth with regard to the real “gay to straight” conversion rate at LIA which is likely much less than 1%.

On this blog, we are “not decieved” by liars in the ex-gay movement who try to mislead the public with Exodus-speak comments deliberately designed to give the impression that they successfully turn people from gay to straight. As I said before, if the work is so noble, why must it be built on a foundation of lies?

Priya Lynn
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

What happened Jim, you said you were going to leave us with your “final” words?

Jim those who are obsessed with death have no happiness in life. The last thing I’d want to do is be trapped in the web of fear you live in. Stop trying to spread your disease to others.

Priya Lynn
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Tell us Jim, if you’re not a liar and you “have absolutely no objection to people having equal rights in any area.”, do you support the right of gay couples to marry?

Jason D
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Burr, I noticed that too. He came, he attacked, and when he met with resistance, he called us hateful, implied that questioning him was to question God, avoided responsibility for his own postings by attributing his beliefs to God and not himself, continued to attack and NOT listen, and NOT address any questions or critique of him or his postings….all that dodging and weaving must have left him tired!

“You will never get society to regard you as normal in your behavior. Your only chance for acceptance is in Christ.”

And that’s his final gauntlet. Since he couldn’t inspire fear of God, he moved to inspire fear of man. You’ve got no other options, homos! Come with me if you want to live!

This presupposes on us that we WANT society to regard us as normal. I could give two craps what “society” thinks. Society thought “Home Improvement” was a good show. What I actually care about is being allowed to live my life as I see fit. Society can be supportive or not. Long as I have my equal rights and equal protection before the law, they can ALL hate me all they want. Current numbers suggest roughly half don’t care.

My family loves and accepts me, and that was a miracle and a half. The new generations are growing up in families like mine, where gay members (and their partners) are accepted. I may not have any kids, but my 8 cousins and brother do or will someday, and you really think they’re going to get the impression there’s something wrong with Uncle Jason and Uncle Jo? Not likely. Not when we’re treated the same as any other couple.

Jim Scott
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

John,
As many times as I have stated that LIA makes no claim to turning homosexuals into heterosexuals and that the 75% success I saw was in graduations, you are not showing much intelligence in not understanding my words.

Priya,
You are an admitted atheist. Why do you bother to read what I have written when it just makes you angry. Marriage is between man and woman or male and female by definition. When people of the same sex “marry” it is meaningless to me.

The invitation to meet is always open.

John
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Jim Scott,

You deliberately misled that reporter. You wanted him to believe that you were claiming a 75% “gay to straight” success rate in order to undercut the story that Peterson Toscano was telling. You have done nothing to correct the deliberate misimpression that you gave to the reporter and was printed in the paper. When you deliberately mislead people, it is called lying.

There are many ways of lying, Jim. You are very good at Exodus-speak lying. Although not necessarily fluent in Exodus-speak, most of us who have watched the ex-gay movement for a while, understand the lingo.

Also, the more bald faced lie that Love In Action NEVER claimed that it could change sexual orientation is seriously at odds with what many people who have suffered through the program have reported. It is also in serious conflict with LIA’s history. In other words, more falsehoods.

Burr
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

It’s hard to see much intelligence or basic literacy in someone that fails to answer any question posed of him directly.

Priya Lynn
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Jim said “Marriage is between man and woman or male and female by definition. When people of the same sex “marry” it is meaningless to me.”.

That doesn’t sound like something someone who has “absolutely no objection to people having equal rights in any area” would say. Stop trying to weasle around the question, give us a simple yes or no, do you support gay couples having the right to marry?

Priya Lynn
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

And Jim, earlier you said you were going to leave us with your final words – why are you back here? Clearly you were lying when you said you were leaving us with your final words.

Priya Lynn
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Jim asked “Why do you bother to read what I have written when it just makes you angry.”.

Evil makes me angry, my ignoring it won’t make it go away. Evil needs to be addressed and refuted.

Timothy Kincaid
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

Jim,

No one is going to take you up on your invitation to meet. We already know what it would consist of.

You have shown no inclination to communicate, choosing instead to preach.

You answer no questions, you repeatedly accuse us of “shouting hate” (a most ironic accusation), you declare us lost and without a savior (knowing nothing about the faith of anyone here), and defend your ludicrous redefining of words so as to pretend that your deceptions were truthful.

No, we are not going to “meet” with you. We are not fools.

Jim Scott
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

I refer you to Psalm 14 which starts out saying “Fools say to themselves.”There is no God”.

You are unable to grasp the truth. If you could, “The truth will set you free”.

You have created your own beliefs to justify your own behaviors.

I knoow that I know that I know I am saved. You have absolutely no assurance.
Unless anyone responds, I will just leave it at that.

I would have looked forward to meeting you as I have met and prayed with so many who are caught up in the sin of homosexuality.

Timothy Kincaid
December 28th, 2009 | LINK

OK, let’s leave it at that.

As we suspected, you didn’t really want to meet anyone to exchange thoughts, you just want to “pray with” those whom you have, in your arrogance, decided have no assurance.

Tell ya what, Jim.

You pray for us and I’ll pray for you.

Scott P.
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Just curious, how does one shout in the written word? I mean, other than all caps, which no one here has used? And since there has been no censorship, how can anyone legitimately claim to have had “hate” shouted at him? No profanity was used, no illogic (except on one part). Only one person condemned others to everlasting hellfire, and he’s the one complaining. Humorous, isn’t it?

(Just being facetious, I knew this whole thread was pointless so long as J.S. continued with his b.s.)

cowboy
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

”I know that I know that I know I am saved. You have absolutely no assurance.
Unless anyone responds, I will just leave it at that” —- J. Scott.

Wow. Did everyone else just read what I just read? Was that a pathetic attempt at trolling?

Priya Lynn
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Jim said “I refer you to Psalm 14 which starts out saying “Fools say to themselves.”There is no God”.”.

Oooo, never heard that one before. The bible is true because it says it is true – gotta love that circular logic. For people like Jim, if their lips are flapping that’s the only evidence they need to believe what they’re saying is true.

Trouble for you Jim is that 93% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences don’t believe in a god. Studies have shown that education is negatively correlated with religiosity. Its not fools who don’t believe in gods.

And Jim, like the dishonest coward you are you hid from the question. Do you support the right of gay couples to marry, yes or no?

You claimed you have “absolutely no objection to people having equal rights in any area”, but its clear now that was a lie. If there was any truth to that you wouldn’t have hesitated to answer “yes” to the above question, you wouldn’t have said “Marriage is between man and woman or male and female by definition”. Be honest for a change, Jim, if your state held a referendum asking “Should gay couples have the right to marry?” you’d vote no, you lied when you said you have “absolutely no objection to people having equal rights in any area”.

Jim Scott
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Timothy, I do pray for you in my nightly prayers. You can pray for me, but I know the only prayers God has an obligation to answer is from His own children. His children are “Sons of God” and the only way you can be one is through saving faith in Jesus. I wish you would pick up a Bible and just read it with an open mind. “liberals” try and change what it says to what they want it to say: they generally do not believe in miracles, sin against God, etc. The offer to meet with you personally or through e-mail is still open.

Priya, I thought I answered your question about same sex marraige. If ist is legalized then the right would be law. Because I believe gays are physically unable to marry if is my believe that a meangingful marraige is between a man and a woman only. Should I have to vote on the issue I would vote yes to the fact that marraige is between a man and a woman or no to legalizing what is not marraige at all.

Cowboy, You must be a strange man. You make comments that have no substance.

Timothy, when are you going to censor me.

I can not keep from responding. Perhaps those who attack me would delight that I could no longer address them.

Timothy Kincaid
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Jim,

Thanks for your prayers. I’m always happy to get prayers. Incidentally, you may want to click on this link to see what I’m praying for you.

I pity you. I know that this must be a very trying experience. You came here believing that all gay people are atheists and while you found a few, you also found believers.

Well that just can’t be. Oh my.

So now you are in the difficult position of convincing yourself that the believers actually don’t really believe. They must be “liberals” instead who don’t read the Bible with an open mind and are instead just trying to “justify their sinful behavior”.

And convinced that gay folk all hate God and all Christians, you keep looking for hate, pretending to find hate, claiming there is hate, but not finding any. Instead you are finding either a logical rebuttal to your claims, a theological discussion, or good ol’ fashioned pity.

And absolutely certain that gay folk are intolerant, you now are asking when I’m going to censor you. How confusing it must be for you that I haven’t done so. If only I had censored you then you could go away declaring that The Geys are intolerant and hateful and rejecting the Word of God.

Jim, you came here with a scenario in mind. You would “preach the Word to the sinners” who would either a) repent, hallelujah, allowing you to see yourself as a winner of souls, b) reject the Word, allowing you to continue to see gay people as degenerate and evil, or c) run you away and censor you, allowing you to declare to the world that “those who scream for tolerance are, gasp, the most intolerant of all”.

Unfortunately for you, Jim, we didn’t read from your script. We didn’t play the game the way you were convinced we would.

As I see it, Jim, you now have three choices:

1 – you can distort this experience in your mind so that it is consistent with your presumptions and does not challenge your worldview,

2 – you can disengage and try to forget this experience altogether, or

3 – you can try and learn from what you have experienced here. You can start to understand that gay folks have as much claim on faith and a connection to God as you do. You can learn that disagreement with your opinions about Scripture is not the same as rejecting God. You can learn that gay people simply do not fit with the distorted notion of hateful miserable creatures that you have come to believe they are based on your experiences with, well, the hateful miserable creatures that enter ex-gay ministries hoping to become heterosexual.

How you go from this exchange is between you, your conscience, and your God.

Priya Lynn
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Jim said “I thought I answered your question about same sex marraige.”.

No, you neither answered my question, nor thought you answered it. You tried to weasle around it and hide. I asked you a simple “yes” or “no” question – “Do you support the right of same couples to marry?” and you still haven’t given a yes or no answer. However, you said marriage is by definition between a man and a woman and that you would vote no to legalizing marriages between same sex couples so from that it is abundantly clear that you were lying when you said you have “absolutely no objection to people having equal rights in any area”.

I’m not surprised by your dishonesty, its permeated everything you’ve said from the Memphis commercial appeal to your very last comments here. That a despicable dishonest sort like yourself would presume to offer moral condemnation to those who harm no one is the hight of hypocrisy.

cowboy
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

about same sex marraige . If ist[sic] is legalized then the right would be law. Because I believe gays are physically unable to marry if is my [belief] that a meangingful [sic] marraige is between a man and a woman only. Should I have to vote on the issue I would vote yes to the fact that marraige is between a man and a woman or no to legalizing what is not marraige at all. — J. Scott

For a man who is so caught up in the definition of marriage, he needs to learn how to spell it. (Four times in the post to Priya.) Perhaps Mr. Scott is using a different dictionary…one that is flawed and that is why he cannot vote for gays to have the same civil rights and the same civil privileges as heterosexuals.

Is that substantive enough Mr. Scott? Or do you want me to pull some of your other “substantive” paragraphs above? You’re calling me strange? Pot meet kettle.

Timothy Kincaid
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Let’s measure Jim Scott’s statements by their thoughtfulness, cohesiveness, and logic rather than by their spelling.

I reject Jim’s “physically unable to marry” claims because of their irrationality and arrogance, not because the man can’t spell.

cowboy
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Oh I agree, Mr. Kincaid. It was silly of me. I’m still scratching my head about the “physically unable to marry” part too.

werdna
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

“Let’s measure Jim Scott’s statements by their thoughtfulness, cohesiveness, and logic rather than by their spelling.”

That seems fair, but the end result is about the same: wrongness.

Priya Lynn
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

I missed that – “physically unable to marry”, LOL. Jim has some very strange bars set to rationalize his anti-marriage position.

Jim Scott
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Timothy, you will most probably censor this:

Romans 1:18-27

“Gos’s anger is shown from heaven asgaist all the evil and wrong things people do. By their own evil lives they hide the truth. god shows his anger because some knowledge of him has beenmade clear to them. Yes, God has shown himself to them. There are things about him that people can not see–his eternal power and all the things that make him God. But since the beginning of the world those things have been easy to understand by what God has made. So people have no excusefor the bad things they do. They knewq God, but they did not give glory to God or thank him. Their thinking became useless. Their foolish minds wre filled darkness. They said they were wise, but they became fools. They traded the glory of God who lives foreverfor the worship of idols made to look like earthly people, birds, animals, and snakes.
Because they did these things, God left them and let them go their sinful way, wanting only to do evil. As a result, they became full of sexual sin, using ththeir bodies wrongly with each other. They traded the truth of God for a lie.They worshiped and served what had been created instead of the God who created those things, who should be praised forever, Amen.
Because people did those things, God left them and let them do the shameful things they wanted to do. Women stopped having natural sex and started having sex with other women. In the same way, men did shameful things with other men, and in their bodies they received the punishment for thoose wrongs.”
the problem has never been with me or even some who may be more outspoken than me. Your problem is described in God’s words above.

Richard W. Fitch
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

“Physically unable to marry” – does that include men or women who are sterile? Women who are post-menopausal? Is the only allowable condition those who are able and willing to procreate? That may have worked in the ancient patriarchal world where women and children were literally the property of their husbands and fathers. But that worldview has long been gone, at least in most of Western civilization. The whole bs about ‘physical complementarity’ demeans any relationship between two consenting adults that is based on mutual respect, commitment and love.

Priya Lynn
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Rather than apologizing for lying when he said “I have absolutely no objection to people having equal rights in any area” Jim Scott tries to change the subject with more irrelevant bible quotes.

Typical. Jim’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He tries to pretend he supports equal rights for gays, but when you poke and prod him enough the truth comes out – he wants to oppress gays and deny them the rights everyone else has.

Priya Lynn
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Jim, the hatred of bronze age bigots is of no importance. What matters is that the essence of morality is “Do whatever you want, but harm no one”. Gays in loving relationships are behaving morally by definition. Your attempts to destroy those relationships are by definition immoral.

TJMcFisty
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

“I wish you would pick up a Bible and just read it with an open mind.”

Jim, I attended Briarcrest Baptist school K-12 so you should immediately know my background, and given this, I’m rather surprised that you’d say that we should read the bible with an open mind.

According to my training, you shouldn’t do that otherwise you’ll come across all the minor often wacky stories that made the bible authorities’ cut–the Gibeonites’ trickery, Ezekiel’s UFOs, making fun of bald people, Saul’s request for foreskins, talking donkeys–oh, and Jesus condemning fig trees in the off season. The stuff I really want The Bible Answer Man to talk about but never does.

Stick to the first coupla books with the rules, Job, Psalms, gospels, Paul’s letters, and Revelation. The rest just leads to confused students because there are no good answers–Coach Weaver sure couldn’t cuz when we had free time bible reading in his class/study hall, I had a bunch–”Coach? UFOs? Seriously?”

Must’ve made me gay. It was either the extra reading or Briarcrest’s lack of prom support (you know, can’t endorse dancing).

Richard W. Fitch
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Jim – just what version of the Bible are you using to quote Romans? It sure certainly is none of the dozen or so renderings I own!

Jason D
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

“Your problem is described in God’s words above.”

False, what you are referring to is man’s translation of another man’s 3rd hand story told 60 years after the fact. It looks like, based on what is specifically written, that this was also edited, as we all know for a fact this section:

“Women stopped having natural sex and started having sex with other women. In the same way, men did shameful things with other men,”

is far too literal. Bibles didn’t get this literal about possible connections to homosexuality until the past hundred years or so.

It’s a lot easier to condemn people when you twist the words so that they say what you want them to say plainly. Before it was so vague, but a few edits and now it says what Jim wants it to say, perfect!

Jim, you’re not dealing with uneducated people, or some tribe from a far corner of the earth. We’re all quite familiar with this material. Some of us have been studying it for quite some time, looking at the work of biblical scholars (people who’s lives are dedicated to understanding the text in it’s cultural context).

Sorry, Jim, we’ve done our homework, throwing “Clobber Verses” at us is rather laughable at this point.

Timothy Kincaid
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

All those who “worship idols made to look like earthly people, birds, animals, and snakes” may choose to consider Jim’s admonitions. This is, after all, what that entire selection was discussing.

Personally, I don’t find the relevance to our readers. But I’m not completely sure. I know we have a broad and diverse group of readers, so perhaps that applies to a few.

Jason D
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

tim, does this mean I have to stop worshipping that golden calf I’m always talking about?

Ken R
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Jim Scott said: There are omly two kinds of people:

Lost or Saved

WOW! To look at people as Lost or Saved rather than unique individuals truly is a warped way of thinking. Most of the Christians I know (the non-fundamentalist/evangelical type) would never look at people this way. I could never be happy in a belief system so wrapped up in whose saved or unsaved.

Thank you Lord from saving me from the narcissistic need to separate the sheep from the goats. That is your job. I will let you handle that.

William
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Jim, the words that you quote from Romans 1 are not God’s words; they are Paul’s words, and if he was writing about homosexuality generally (as opposed to homosexual orgies as part of pagan cults, for instance) and seriously thought that homosexuality was caused by worshipping idols, then he plainly didn’t know what he was talking about. Not that it matters, because the actual theme of his Epistle to the Romans is not the condemnation of homosexuality. There is no reason why we, getting on for two thousand years later, should be bound by his limited understanding of the subject.

Ditto for the prohibitions in Leviticus. They are not God’s words; they are what the authors of the Pentateuch – and God knows who they were – claim that Moses (if he was a historical person) claimed that God said to him. That makes it hearsay to start with and, as Thomas Paine wrote, “Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication – after this it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner; for it was not a revelation made to ME, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.”

Jim Scott
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

TJMcFisty,

I have two daughters and a son-in-law that graduated from Briarcrest. I have four grandchildren btween them.

How have your family members handled your homosexuality? One of the comments I have heard is that homosexuality hurts no one. I have seen a lot of greiving parents and siblings that have been hurt tremendously.

Are you saved?

Timothy Kincaid
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

I too have seen a lot of grieving parents and siblings that have been hurt tremendously by societal homophobia and churches chuck full of condemnation and rejection.

Priya Lynn
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Jim said “I have seen a lot of greiving parents and siblings that have been hurt tremendously”.

Outrageous nonsense. A relative’s gayness doesn’t prevent anyone from living their life however they choose – that is the definition of harmless. No one has the right to dictate to another that they live a chaste life devoid of love and romance just because in their selfish mind they’d like it better if no one was gay.

Jim asked “Are you saved?”. There is no such thing. We’re all going to die and that will be the end of us. It’s absurd to point to Christianity as though it has anything to say about morality as the very foundation of Christianity is a concept of gross injustice – punishment of an innocent person for the wrongs of others.

We all know instinctively that its wrong to punish someone for something they didn’t do and that an uninvolved third party can’t take responsibility for the actions of others. Yet Christianity is founded on the idea that a loving and just god punished the innocent Jesus for the wrongs of others and that this punishement absolved people of guilt for their wrongs.

Our justice system never says its right to punish an innocent person, they idea is abhorrent to all right thinking people. By the same token, if a stranger walked into a murder trial, cut his arm and said “I’ve punished myself in place of this person, let him go free” we’d all look at him like he was crazy and yet such insanity is at the heart of Christianity.

We all know its wrong to invade the privacy of a marriage and take another man’s wife and impregnate her without his permission – we’d call that evil in real life. Yet Chrisitians claim this wrong act is what their god did and they bizzarely call it holy.

The ideas of gross injustice at the heart of Chrisianity show that it can in no way ever be a guideline for moral behavior.

Timothy Kincaid
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Sigh,

Why do I feel like I’m on a street corner with two competing street preachers each yelling into a bullhorn?

I think that the evangelical sermons from Jim Scott and Priya Lynn are about equally unlikely to accomplish anything at all.

Burr
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Well no one in my family was hurt when I came out. They were all incredibly happy for me and they all love my boyfriend!

So yes I still have not hurt anyone.

And neither has any other gay son or lesbian daughter. If their parents and family feel pain, it’s only because that has been dictated to them by callous people like you, Jim.

Richard W. Fitch
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

I don’t have my music history books handy any more, but there has been more than one parent who disinherited, or at least made the threat to a child who later became renowned as a musician rather than accepting the career path that had been dictated to them, leaving beyond a very hurt parent. At what point does the child/adult no longer have responsibility to the dictates of those who have given them life and nurture? And if, as current studies seem to demonstrate, the “hurt” is caused by an aspect that is intrinsic to the child………?

Richard Rush
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Timothy said,

Why do I feel like I’m on a street corner with two competing street preachers each yelling into a bullhorn?

I think that the evangelical sermons from Jim Scott and Priya Lynn are about equally unlikely to accomplish anything at all.

That may be, but Priya speaks from knowledge, reason, and logic, while Jim robotically regurgitates scary myths, superstition, and fairy tales in the hope of having people fall to their knees quaking in fear and crying out for mercy to a barbaric, vindictive, but loving, god.

Priya Lynn
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Timothy, evangelical is a religious term. Its insulting for you to continuously apply it to me when you know I am not religous. I’m asking you to politely stop doing so.

Timothy Kincaid
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

If you don’t wish to be considered evangelical, then don’t evangelize for your beliefs about God(s).

Jim Scott
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Richard Fitch,
The Bible I have quoted from is the New Century Version. I too have read most versions of the Bible. I see no contradictions.

You guys are unreal. You look to eternity as either a myth or you depend on other men’s interpretaions. You leave out what you do not like. You have never experienced a miracle. You have no belief system that gives you any assurance of forgiveness of sin, which all men and women need. Your thinking that the Bibles we have in print are so far from what God said does not show your education but your denial of God’s word. If you can not believe all of it, how can you believe any of it.

Everyone I have seen comment(with the exception of one) are commenting to God, not me. He is witnesss to everything said , done, or thought. Some are atheists. Some are just blind to truth. We all will stand before God in one or another judgement. The Judgement Seat of Christ will be a judgement of what Christians did with what God gave us. The other is The Great White Throne Judgement where those who never were saved will be cast into the lake of fire. My hope is that you will come to Christ before you die.
God’s qustion to each of you may well be, why?

Priya Lynn
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

I don’t “evangelize” Timothy, that’s something religious people do. I suppose I should know better than to expect any modicum of respect from you. You are clearly motivated to insult me and any excuse to do so will do.

Timothy Kincaid
December 29th, 2009 | LINK

Jim Scott,

I’m going to close the thread and let you have the last word.

(Priya Lynn, you also can have the last word on our side discussion)