Box Turtle Bulletin
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobby“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobbyAugust 11th, 2008
One would think that supporters of Proposition 8, the anti-gay marriage amendment, would know that the editorial board of the LA Times would not be receptive to anti-gay posturing. And surely they could figure out that the Times had some methodology of letting others know just what they had to say.
But those who find their life motivated by animus seldom realize how hateful and extremist they can sound. Karin Klien, a times editorial writer, shares with us some choice tidbits from the Times’ meeting with marriage opponents.
At one point, the conversation turned to the “activist judges” whose May ruling opened the door to same-sex marriage, and how similar this case was to the 1948 case that declared bans on interracial marriage unconstitutional. According to one of the Prop. 8 reps, that 1948 ruling was OK because people are born to their race and thus are in need of constitutional protection, while gays and lesbians choose their homosexuality.
And
In any case, one Prop. 8 supporter said, gay rights are not as important as children’s rights, and it’s obvious that same-sex couples who married would “recruit” their children toward homosexuality because otherwise, unable to procreate themselves, they would have no way to replenish their numbers. Even editorial writers can be left momentarily speechless, and this was one of those moments.
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Jason D
August 11th, 2008
I don’t think I’ve ever been anywhere where anyone has ever said “oh gosh, we’re running out of gay people!” Does anyone in the gay community even care if there’s more of us? I think most of us accept and assume we are a naturally occurring phenomenon that doesn’t need any help to continue.
Think about it, most of human history has demonized us, castrated or just plain killed us….yet we’re still here. I assume we’ll always be here, thus the “recruiting” insanity seems even more ridiculous.
Leonardo Ricardo, Sa
August 11th, 2008
yet we’re still here. I assume we’ll always be here, thus the “recruiting†insanity seems even more ridiculous.” Jason D
Yes, we’re like China, always present, sometimes silent, but we’ve always BEEN and we’re also good at waiting to come out and you’ll just have to guess who we really are.
John
August 11th, 2008
Wow. Just wow.
Ben in Oakland
August 11th, 2008
I’m so shocked to hear this. Anti-gay marriage people are not really pro-marriage, they are anti gay. Who kneW?
It seems like the story behind the story is the real story. If the Times is interested in doing that story– then they would be doing a service.
cd
August 11th, 2008
So that’s what the people who don’t think, think. Sigh.
Emily K
August 12th, 2008
I can’t believe people still come right out and say “they choose their homosexuality” anymore. Not even most of the ex-gay people say we consciously choose it (we just choose not to change it).
“Replenish our numbers”?? Are they SERIOUS? I’m surprised they didn’t use the pedophile argument when discussing “children’s rights.” How about the right of children who would otherwise grow up in the flawed foster system to be raised by two loving adoptive parents?
Duncan
August 12th, 2008
Have you noticed that families that identify as conservative and Christian (or Muslim, for that matter) tend to have more children that the unaffiliated? Meanwhile conversions are quite flat.
Christians cannot recruit – so they reproduce!
Jason D
August 12th, 2008
I don’t know the whole “choice” rationale is flawed in so many ways.
Let’s suppose homosexuality is a choice for a second. Well, then, so what? It harms no one. I don’t see what the problem is. Some people consider it “bad” because their religion says so. Again, so what? Religions say that eating pork is bad, that eating meat at all is bad, that working on Sunday is bad, that working between Friday night and Saturday morning is bad, that drinking and smoking are bad — all of which are very legal.
This is a country where we vote, we we travel between states without papers, where we work where we choose, and live where we choose. We defend choice, we support choice.
Religion is 100% choice. Nobody is born catholic, and nobody has to be catholic. There’s no catholic gene. Would it be fair to say, “well, we shouldn’t hire him because he’s Jewish, being Jewish is a choice!”
These people sound like they are rationalizing, in other words, coming up with an excuse to explain their prejudice rather than coming to a well-thought-out conclusion.
Jarred
August 12th, 2008
Christians cannot recruit
It certainly doesn’t keep them from trying, though!
And I think that to me, that’s the biggest irony of the whole “recruitment” argument when it comes to LGBT people. Of course conservative Christians think we try to “recruit” children! After all, it’s what they do!
Garrett O'Neal
August 12th, 2008
What!
Martin Lanigan
August 12th, 2008
Jason D writes:
“Religion is 100% choice.”
I hate to quibble and I appreciate Jason’s point.
Nevertheless, if religion is 100% choice, then would we not expect to find religions more evenly distributed within families, communities and nations?
Why is it that if you are born in the USA you are overwhelmingly likely to be Christian, yet if you are born in Turkey, you are overwhelmingly likely to be Muslim?
Conscious choice of one’s religious affiliation is probably more the exception rather than the rule. IMO religion is culturally transmitted and is more akin to other cultural products (like language and customs) than it is to things that are freely and consciously chosen.
Perhaps religion and sexual orientation are more similar than they appear to be at first blush?
Are we predisposed to our sexual orientation due to genetic and personal circumstances? Are we predisposed to our religious affiliation due to cultural and familial influences?
In any case, I think far more research into the causes of religious affiliation are required before we can definitively pronounce that religion is freely chosen. ;-)
Ben in Oakland
August 12th, 2008
Just sent to the author of the article:
Dear Ms. Klein:
I read your posting on what the Prop. 8 people had to say to your editorial board. Frankly, I think that this is, in fact, the real story, and it is something that the L.A. times should do and run ASAP– the real motivation. They claim that they are not anti-gay, just pro-marriage. Their comments belie that– putting it mildly. Wanting marriage to “recruit” their own children in to the “homosexual lifestyle”? How very Anita Bryant of them, though as Anita would have observed, we don’t need marriage for that!!!. Randy Thomason’s “plague of gay marriage” comments? Marriage as a plague–what a concept. Gay people choose to be gay? Just ask Ted Haggard!
I have long maintained, and seen very little evidence to contradict it, that this is no more about marriage than Don’t-Ask-Don’t-Tell is about military preparedness, than sodomy laws are about God’s message to the world, than anti-gay adoption laws are about the best interests of the children, or any of it. It is all about three things, as far as I can tell:
1) How much the very existence of gay people bothers, frightens, excites, and thrills some straight people, as well as some gay-people-who-wanna-be-straight-but-ain’t.
2) The huge cash-and-power cow that right wing groups are milking on the issue.
3) The very basis of scriptural authority, and their fears that if they back off on this, the whole moral (and I use that word loosely)authority of the bible is then undermined. Well, not really, as far as I can tell, any more than it was undermined when biblically authorized slavery, segregation, anti-Semitism, subjugation of women (to name a few) no longer received that imprimatur.
I think it owuld be THE story to go out among these groups and show what they REALLY think and REALLY say. Sanctimony is all very well in the service of hypocritical fear-mongering, but it still stinks.
Jarred
August 12th, 2008
Nevertheless, if religion is 100% choice, then would we not expect to find religions more evenly distributed within families, communities and nations?
No, I don’t think so. There are factors that might influence choices such that you see patterns. For example, here in Western New York, you’re going to find a lot more fans of the Buffalo Bills than you will find fans of the Dallas Cowboys. But that doesn’t mean one’s favorite sports team isn’t a choice.
Yes, there are familial, regional, social, and other pressures involved in religious choice. As someone who was raised in a Baptist background and later got involved in Pentecostalism, I can talk a lot about those social pressures. But at the same time, I was able to walk away from that background and become a devotee of Freyja. In the end, it was my choice. And it was something that at the most conservative efforts only took three years.
Compare that to the fact that the eight years I spent trying to turn myself straight were never successful in the slightest.
SharonB
August 12th, 2008
The Animus Driven Life.
A novel of the Religious Right. Hmmm.
AJD
August 12th, 2008
Ben,
I’ve long thought that as well. They’re not out to protect anything — they just don’t like us. Remember that a lot of the people backing these amendments are the same ones who voted for things like Colorado’s Amendment 2 and were also whining when the Supreme Court overturned sodomy laws.
Extreme as it might sound, I don’t doubt that a lot of the “hate the sin, love the sinner” types would do a hell of a lot more than ban us from marrying if they could.
fannie
August 12th, 2008
“Christians cannot recruit – so they reproduce!”
Ah hahahahahahahaha!
It is inexplicable to me that people actually think we, gay people, are like obsessed with recruiting and “replenishing our numbers.” Not once have I ever thought about doing so. I think it’s a Christian Weapon of Mass Projection. They try and try to recruit (evangelize), and say that we’re the ones who do so.
Ben in Oakland
August 12th, 2008
I just received this response from Ms. Klein: “Thanks for your email. Have you also posted comments to the blog? That’s a good pace to communicate your message as well.”
I wrote back:
Dear Ms. Klein:
Thank you or your response. I do post occasionally, but to me, whatever I post is not actually a story, it is my opinion, and its distribution and impact are limited.
On the other hand, the basic hypocrisy of the anti-gays IS a story. If they want to claim that they have no animus towards gay people, that this is all about ‘preserving traditional marriage’, yet they make absurd, vicious statements like the ones made to your editorial board, then that is a real story.
You may not remember the Briggs Initiative 30 years ago, which would have banned any openly gay people from the classroom. It was all that ‘save the children’ crap all over again. The vitriol and the hatred expressed by its supporters shocked me. As with so many things, it was not about teachers or children, but about how much those people HATED gay people. Their arguments were all about serial killers, child molesters, sin, and so forth, not gay people. It was one of the reasons they lost, even in 1978.
I’ve said it many times before: these people will spend their last nickel attacking gays but for some odd reason you rarely hear them mounting the same kind of efforts to help the uninsured or the poor. If they were to take this same initiative with regards to providing health care, I suspect they could improve the lot of countless ‘real’ children.
Randy Thomason calls gay marriage a ‘plague.’ Perhaps a better notion of plague in our democracy is the use of hate, fear, and prejudice, whether disguised as sincere religious belief or just admitted for what they are, to demonize the lives and aspirations of law abiding and productive members of society, in order to accrue money, power, and votes to promote an extremely conservative religious and social agenda, or the goals of a political party that has led our nation to the very precipice of financial, constitutional, and political ruin.
That’s why I think this is a story that should be told by a real reporter, not posted in a blog that few people read.
Jason D
August 12th, 2008
Jason D writes:
“Religion is 100% choice.â€
I hate to quibble and I appreciate Jason’s point.
Nevertheless, if religion is 100% choice, then would we not expect to find religions more evenly distributed within families, communities and nations?
Martin, you do raise some interesting points, but perhaps I should clarify my point a bit further.
There is no christian gene, no gene that makes you believe in Jesus Christ. People have to be told about Jesus, they have to be told about the Bible. No one has to be told they are black. No one has to be told they’re missing an arm. I knew I was “different” long before I had a name for it. No one ever thinks to themselves “Oh my God, I think I might be a Christian!” Christians go door-to-door, the Mormon’s spend their 18th year on this earth on a “mission”. Religion actively seeks converts. They actively recruit– to use the oppositions wording “it’s a lifestyle choice”.
People switch religions, or abandon religion altogether. It’s very much changeable.
Of course, our choices are certainly influenced by our parents and the culture around us. A family of sports fans is likely to produce sports fans: but fandom is not genetic, it’s not part of one’s DNA, it’s not produced by womb environment or hormone levels during pregnancy.
Religion is 100% choice. People may be raised in their religion, but it is their choice to continue to go to church, to continue to observe the tenents of their faith.
Why is it that if you are born in the USA you are overwhelmingly likely to be Christian,
For the same reasons they are likely to speak english — environment. Environmental factors do not trump choice, they merely provide context for it.
Conscious choice of one’s religious affiliation is probably more the exception rather than the rule. IMO religion is culturally transmitted and is more akin to other cultural products (like language and customs) than it is to things that are freely and consciously chosen.
I see what you’re saying here, but I disagree. I think that acceptance of religious teachings is a choice. I rejected mine, that was a choice. As children grow up they are introduced through TV, Movies, Friends, Classmates, coworkers, etc to different religions and ideas, and they make the choice to learn more, experiment, even change their religion – or to continue on as before.
Perhaps religion and sexual orientation are more similar than they appear to be at first blush?
…
In any case, I think far more research into the causes of religious affiliation are required before we can definitively pronounce that religion is freely chosen. ;-)
We’ll just have to agree to disagree, at least in part :P
cd
August 12th, 2008
Have you noticed that families that identify as conservative and Christian (or Muslim, for that matter) tend to have more children that the unaffiliated? Meanwhile conversions are quite flat.
This one fact is The Great Solace on right wing forums. A great many revenge/reconquest fantasies and We Will Win When the Baby Boomers Die fictional scenarios are built upon it. They have also convinced themselves that Gen Yers are secretly social conservatives or can easily persuaded to be it.
Christians cannot recruit – so they reproduce!
Well, the real demographic story is a bit complicated. Basically, the American upper middle class has de-religionized and it’s spreading into the middle middle class. Religionist Christians (who are mostly lower middle class) are having a terrible time with this situation. There are in effect glass ceilings when they have trouble working with liberals and disbelievers, a sense of quietly being ostracized outside places full of their own, all for a net effect of sideways or quiet downward mobility.
And in that sideways or downward mobility lies the counter to the We Will Outreproduce You. The long range prospects for that life strategy are that their True Believer kids will keep the rigid dogmatism and get frustrated with mainstream society and education and drop to working class. Or (if fervent) soon flee to where their attitudes are accepted or not rejectable, i.e. to ever deeper and poorer Red Statia, fortresses and outposts of Redstatia, and/or the Third World outright. Even there there is no safety in the long run, and the retreat must continue. Eventually that means caves in Afghanistan….
Of course, most kids raised by these idiots are smart enough to recognize the inviable load of b.s. their parents are trying to pack into their heads and condemn them to drag around for life. Some reject it all outright. But most do what we’re seeing all over American Christianity now: dropping the fervor, quietly disbelieve as much of the crud as they can (and it’s a struggle), act according to their own best judgment in their private and professional lives, and go passive toward all the Big Causes Every Christian Should Side With. And their kids tend to be pretty free of the b.s. and practical about it all.
That building passivity and “liberalism” (i.e. following individual conscience) in the churches is tearing up the religious conservatives. That’s why we’re seeing all these church schisms and such.
So the numbers don’t quite tell the story- yet. In 10-15 years the pre-WW2 generations and a lot of the early half of the Boomers will be gone, and I think we will be surprised at what a difference that will make in social attitudes.
cowboy
August 12th, 2008
Dontcha just luv Ben. He has a big day coming up yet he takes the time to write a few good letters. May I pat him on the back and give a big congratulatory hug! I wish I could be there to witness his big event.
Gary Brewton
August 12th, 2008
The problem with anti-gays is that many of them are anti-sex as well. Thus they never stop to consider that recruiting is not necessary, that straight people do a fine job of making more of us queers without any help from us at all.
Regan DuCasse
August 13th, 2008
I think I”ll have this put on a shirt:
“Protect ALL children, Vote NO on Prop. 8”.
Ben in Oakland
August 13th, 2008
Thanks cowboy for the congrats. i’m just doing my best to preserve my marriage…
…though it was on my agenda to destroy marriage this week, i find i just don’t have the time.
cowboy
August 14th, 2008
We want proof! Ben in Oakland…You need to provide us with pictures of your grand scheme to destroy marriage. One of the following should be sufficient:
A picture (or scanned) of your wedding invitation would be sufficient.
A copy of the announcement in the local newspaper and the resulting “Letter to the Editor” in protest.
A link to your Macy’s or Pottery Barn Wedding Registry.
Ben in Oakland
August 14th, 2008
A little difficult to get all of that together. I should be doing some work. I will share this slightly adapted bit of doggerel from Vaughan williams opera, “The Poisoned Kiss”, which appears on our announcemet:
It’s the proper thing to do
This is true, very true.
It’s the proper thing to do
This is true.
If you love a nice young man
Always marry him if you can.
for it’s the proper, proper, proper thing to do.
IT’s the proper thing to do
If you woo, when you do.
It’s the proper thing to do, when you woo.
If you’ve tried the boys all round
You can Marry the best you’ve found.
That’s the proper, proper, proper thing to do.
It’s the thing we’ve got to do
Me and You.
Ephilei
August 14th, 2008
BTB capitalizes on the crazy antics of the anti-gay movement so well I’m surprised major publishers haven’t. It’s good, fun reading!
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