Box Turtle Bulletin
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobby“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobbySeptember 30th, 2008
As someone who chose to go through an ex-gay program I made a video taking Sarah Palin to task for her absurd claim homosexuality is a choice (comically and with righteous sass I might add).
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David Malcolm
September 30th, 2008
honestly I think you’re just looking for something to complain about. I don’t think she’s being malicious, I just think she’s not too bright. She’s not asking you to do anything differently.
El Rose
October 1st, 2008
This comment has been deleted for violations of our Comments Policy. Not only was the comment off topic, but it was deleted specifically for:
Eddie89
October 1st, 2008
Someone may need to check that YouTube video. I tried to view it and got an error message: “We’re sorry, this video is no longer available.”
Bad link? YouTube deleted?
Jim Burroway
October 1st, 2008
I just now clicked on the video and it seems to work for me. What browser are you using?
Johno
October 1st, 2008
David, look at Palin’s LGBT record, keeping in mind that the one thing that went in our favor was forced upon her, and tell me again how this is sincere and no big deal.
Timothy Kincaid
October 1st, 2008
Johno,
She doesn’t have much of an LGBT record. She’s opposed same-sex couple benefits – and not very agressively.
Beyond that, it’s all myth, speculation, and extrapolation of attitudes from the cherry-picking of a word.
quo III
October 2nd, 2008
For the record, there is no scientific proof that homosexuality is not a choice. The neuroscientist Simon LeVay has admitted this; see the Wikipedia article about him.
Ben in Oakland
October 2nd, 2008
Quo’s back.
Although that statement is not a true one quo– google francis collins– where is the proof that it is?
Oh yes. randy thomas. Larry Craig. alan Chambers. Ted Haggard.
Jim Burroway
October 2nd, 2008
Quo III
I have no doubt that for a small minority (some bisexuals as an example), homosexuality may well be a choice. But to say that such a blanket statement applies to everyone flies in the face of logic and, yes, science.
But more personally, I think the proof is in the experience of those who are gay. I have never chosen to be homosexual. That is an absolute fact. In fact, there was a time in my life in which I desperately wanted to be anything but gay.
I find comments like yours dismissive of the reality that many people experience. I know it’s not your experience, but then I suspect there are many things in life you haven’t experienced, just as there are many experience in life I haven’t experienced.
But at the risk of sounding flippant, I do have to wonder if perhaps there was a time in your life in which you “chose” not to be gay. If so, what did that look like? Because I cannot find such a crossroads in mine. In fact, if there had been such a crossroads, the pressures to take a different path would have been overwhelming.
Yuki Choe
October 2nd, 2008
“For the record, there is no scientific proof that homosexuality is not a choice. The neuroscientist Simon LeVay has admitted this; see the Wikipedia article about him.”
Before you say anything, I did not choose to be transsexual either. Really, I can vouch for my fellow brothers and sisters here. Hey, why choose to be a “minority”? Gays, lesbians, transsexuals… wow. So much choice. And before you say “sexual deviation”, I had not had any sexual experience whatsoever for years. And I know a celibate gay brother. Yes, so….
Bill S
October 2nd, 2008
If you believe being gay is a choice, then doesn’t that mean you believe there’s an advantage to being gay? Because otherwise what would motivate that choice?
quo III
October 2nd, 2008
Jim,
I wasn’t trying to say that homosexuality necessarily is a choice, only that there’s no proof that it’s not. That was LeVay’s point. There’s a longer quote from LeVay about that in the Wikipedia article on sexual orientation (or at least there was the last time I looked).
Timothy Kincaid
October 2nd, 2008
Quo,
There is also no proof that homosexuality is not caused by Gerber strained peas. Or by space aliens. Or by the Hokey Pokey (after all, that’s what it’s all about).
Yet we all know that homosexuality is not based in strained peas, flying saucers, or funny childhood dances… or choice.
quo III
October 3rd, 2008
Timothy,
“We” have fairly serious disagreements over what causes homosexuality, it seems. Actually, relatively more gay women than gay men appear to regard their homosexuality as a choice (according to Simon LeVay, 15 per cent of lesbians in an Advocate poll thought choice had something to do with their sexual orientation; that’s on page 6 of Queer Science).
MR Bill
October 3rd, 2008
The new Evangelical line on homosexuality is that orientation may be somehow innate, but you can choose not to act on it (sorta like the Catholic’s position), or at least, that’s what some of these folks I know are sayin’.
In my own life, I knew I was attracted to men, but didn’t do anything about it. The woman I would marry (a strong willed country girl)said, when I said “I think I’m bisexual” replied “Of course you are. Just don’t present me with a scandal, and keep it out of the county, and we’ll be ok.” After a few unfortunate episodes, and the birth of my daughter, I didn’t touch a guy for over 10 years, but I always wanted to.
When it became clear that my wife was in a long term affair at work (and got me to do threesomes with the dude), I met a man (a Log Cabin Republican btw) who wanted me for a mostly sexual relationship, and insisted I stay married. That ended this year, four years after my wife’s death, when he told me “we don’t have a relationship”….
I’ve come to think a lot of men’s sexuality has to develop: most bisexual men eventually end up in male only relationships. I truly felt ‘bisexual’, enjoyed the woman and making love to her, but there was always this itch for a man’s love..My current partner was the same: a thirty year old virgin (and his name is Timothy Kincade too!) who was more of less grabbed by a strong willed woman, and didn’t come to terms with wanting men till his divorce 10 years later..
I’ve met an number of men who married and then came to terms with their sexuality. The evangelical line will encourage gay men like myself to marry, with bad results. I think this might be part of the fallacy of “don’t ask don’t tell”: 18-19 year-olds might not be aware of their sexuality, or not know themselves well enough to act on it.
They set it up for failure, and then blame Teh Gay.
Timothy Kincaid
October 3rd, 2008
Quo,
You are right, we disagree.
I tend to follow the school of thought shared by all major mental health and medical organizations, all secural researchers (along with many religious ones), all gay organizations, and every gay person I’ve ever met in my life in thinking that orientation is not something one chooses.
You agree with 15% of lesbians in a non-scientific survey that choice may be involved.
Perhaps it was involved to some extent for those lesbians (whatever it was that they meant by “choice”) but otherwise I feel perfectly confident in stating that one does not choose one’s sexual orientation.
If you have some empirical evidence that one does choose their orientation, please provide it. Otherwise, we’re going to let this stream of discussion come to a halt.
Timothy Kincaid
October 3rd, 2008
Mr. Bill,
Thank you for sharing that. I agree that much of the evangelical community no longer sees “being gay” as a choice, only behaving gay.
Ultimately, when that fully happens it is only a short time until we’ve won. Americans are a fair people, they don’t like mistreating folks for “what they can’t help”.
Mark
October 4th, 2008
Yes, it’s pretty ignorant to think that having homosexual feelings is a “choice.” Ask any straight person if they could choose to be gay. Go ahead. Most will laugh. Of course, acting on feelings is certainly a choice.
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