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News and commentary about the anti-gay lobby“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobbyDecember 11th, 2008
Newsweek and The Advocate ask the question. Patricia Nell Warren says of course not. I agree. You?
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Priya Lynn
December 11th, 2008
While not identical, there certainly are a lot of similarities.
AJD
December 11th, 2008
I have really weird feelings about this phrase, and I was startled to see it on the cover of The Advocate and on picket signs.
I don’t agree, personally. For one, I think it’s just an unlettered way of saying what we should be saying: that homophobia is the last socially and legally acceptable form of bigotry.
Second, I worry that it will only further alienate blacks who already get upset when we try to compare our struggle to the black civil rights movement.
Now, truth be told, we have every legitimate reason to say we’re a civil rights movement, and there were a lot of connections between the black civil rights movement and the gay-rights movement (e.g. Coretta Scott King, Huey Newton and Bayard Rustin, to name a few), not to mention the obvious overlap between the communities.
However, I don’t think you can really compare movements because every group has its own problems and struggles, just as you can’t say that the black civil rights movement is necessarily identical to the women’s rights movement (though, again, I don’t mean to ignore the overlap).
fannie
December 11th, 2008
There are similarities but I’m pretty sure suggesting that the black struggle for full equality is over is just going to alienate and anger many in the black community.
What an unfortunate article by the Advocate. Why are our mainstream organizations and publications so out of touch?
Rick
December 11th, 2008
I resist this comparison out of a desire not to offend African-Americans. For me, it’s as good a reason as any to steer clear of it. I do not need to offend them in order to validate my own desire for civil equality.
Frankly, I believe the history of the global persecution of gays is under-represented in most teaching curriculae. I’m also of the opinion that our gay history is not very well documented (we were more hidden, and so was our history). This is my way of saying I feel most folks do not know how bad we’ve had it over the centuries.
Patrick
December 11th, 2008
Was it ever illegal to be black?
gar
December 11th, 2008
I think it’s an unfortunate question to ask and it does nothing to help build dialog and understanding. Coming from someone who’s on “both sides of the fence.”
gar
December 11th, 2008
@ Patrick:
Dred Scott v. Sanford (60 US (19 How.) 393.
AJD
December 11th, 2008
Another thing to consider is that it’s not like homophobia and persecution of gay people started yesterday. We have a history of oppression going back to the Byzantine era, and that includes all manners of horrors: public execution, torture, castration, imprisonment, electro-shock therapy — just to name a few.
And it continues today: There are still countries were being gay is a capital crime, and we experience hate crimes all over the world.
Someone on Bilerico.com made an interesting point: Trying to compare ourselves to other groups makes it look as if we lack the confidence to win on our own merits.
I think one thing we have to do is dispel this notion being pushed by religious right types (like Mike Huckabee) that homosexuality is a “behavior” or “something you do, not something you are.” That way, we won’t have to compare ourselves to others.
KipEsquire
December 11th, 2008
Both Coretta Scott King and Mildred Loving, were adamant that it is perfectly proper for gays to invoke the 1960s civil rights struggle.
So much for this thread…
Rick
December 11th, 2008
Kip,
I’m thrilled to have their support, but it does not guarantee that other African-Americans will not find the comparison offensive.
Jarred
December 11th, 2008
While I think it’s important not to overstate similarities or make too much of such comparisons, I do think that some comparisons between the two movements are legitimate and merited. Most notably, I think that the similarities between some of the arguments used by the opponents of both movements should be strongly noted, as it does point out that bigotry and prejudice is much the same regardless of who it is directed at.
a. mcewen
December 11th, 2008
The discussion is an interesting one but I don’t like reducing it to a catchphrase designed not to encourage discussion but sow resentment.
I think in a general sense, one oppressed groups don’t necessarily like to be compared to another. I think we would have the same disagreements if someone compared Anti-Semitism to Racism. Or the oppression of different religions.
When we allow ourselves to play this game, we only play into the religious right’s attempt to divide us. Because let’s face it, the religious right don’t care about African-American issues any more than they care about gay issues.
grantdale
December 11th, 2008
Given that the old black is still the old black in all too many as yet unresolved ways, then no.
(Much progress has of course been made with regards to, as AJD put it, that particular “socially and legally acceptable form of bigotry”. But, personally, the hideously divergent rates of incarceration and health outcomes indicate much still needs to be achieved. Bottom of the heap is still… bottom of the heap.)
Again personally, it’s often more easily stated that gay is the new Jew. If a comparison need be made.
(Sure we love and respect y’all, just don’t think any of You People will be joining Our Country Club anytime soon.)
Anti-semiticism — with it’s undertones of religious persecution and false claims of the elitist powers held by the minority — often appears closer to the mark. Nobody’s ever claimed that seven black men rule the World.
Consider the parallels in even the most current headliners from the anti-gay side of society:
they are after our children vs blood libel
Jews control the banks vs gays control the media
they manipulate vs they manipulate
Etc, etc, etc.
(But of course, “Where are the white women at?” also has it’s parallel in “We’re after your sons.”)
/Sigh. It’s not a competition. Progress for one or all does not come at a cost to others.
Richard Rush
December 11th, 2008
What exactly is the point of even discussing whether Gay is the new Black? How and why did this ever get started? I see no potential benefit to Gays or to Blacks. I don’t want to say “yes” or “no” to the question because I think the question is ridiculous. (I don’t mean to suggest that Jim was wrong in posting about it, because the issue was already out there in the media)
However, to a very great extent, Gays are fighting for their civil rights. It’s absurd for some Blacks to take issue with Gays using that term. Blacks do not own the term “civil rights.”
David C.
December 11th, 2008
While there are parallels that can be drawn between the two movements, “the new black” is probably not the way to frame the debate surrounding Gay Rights. It is certainly in the best interest of the Gay Civil Rights movement to study and learn from that of the Black Civil Rights movement.
Common to all civil rights struggles are phases that help to demarcate progress along the timeline from despisal to acceptance. Identifying these phases and their characteristics is probably more helpful: the process may be similar in many aspects, but different in just as many making the fight for Gay Rights distinct and worthy of its own particular strategies.
Jayelle
December 11th, 2008
I also agree that it’s offensive. Yes, both groups have and do experience prejudice, but the kinds of prejudice are different. For me, the big difference is that gayness cuts across all ethnic boundaries. I believe we need to emphasize our universality as LGBT people, how we show up in every culture and race. This is just an upraised (white) middle finger not only to those black people who oppose LGBT civil rights, but to black allies (including some very powerful ones like MA’s governor Deval Patrick) and to black LGBT people themselves.
AlexM
December 12th, 2008
I also believe this is the wrong comparison to make. The heart of prejudice — that is, the fear of the ‘other’ — is the same. But after that, all of the various ways prejudice comes out (stereotypes, the anti-‘other’ laws, unscientific beliefs that ‘support’ the prejudice) all are expressed differently for each group of ‘other’ in history. The difficulties faced, the struggles, ARE different. And I also agree with other commenters that making such comparisons is offensive.
werdna
December 12th, 2008
a. mcewen wrote:
That pretty much sums up my feelings on this issue. I think comparisons of different instances of oppression and discrimination are legitimate and valuable, but this particular glib phrase just doesn’t work. Yes it’s mildly amusing as a satire of a stereotypical gay man’s obsession with fashion, but given that it’s clearly offensive to potential allies it should be retired as a political slogan asap…
quasifictional
December 12th, 2008
Agree with many of the above, and I think AJD makes a good point that this question implies that “Gay” is somehow “new,” to say nothing of its insinuation that racism is over.
Comparisons between the two (overlapping) movements can be legitimate, but this particular phrasing is, in my opinion, careless. It has the ring of a slogan someone thought was clever while smoking in front of building, if you know what I mean. We all have those moments, but then you go inside and say, “I’ve got an idea!” and as soon as it’s out of your mouth you realize, if you’re lucky, that out loud it actually sounds really dumb.
Ephilei
December 12th, 2008
No.
We have similarities, but not enough to be the same. As long as this language offends African Americans, it will hurt us, not help us.
Timothy Kincaid
December 12th, 2008
I agree with retired justice Sandra Day O’Connor that just as race was the most significant issue before the courts in the 20th Century, gay rights will be the most significant issue before the courts in the 21st Century.
Dennis
December 12th, 2008
I couldn’t care less about offending blacks. Prop 8 passed because they voted for it. To hell with them.
Dennis
December 12th, 2008
Forgive me, it passed because the majority of individuals who voted for it were black. To hell with them.
Timothy Kincaid
December 12th, 2008
Dennis,
You are wrong in both accusations:
While it is true that if the black vote were entirely removed from the voters tally on Proposition 8 (as based on exit polling), the vote would have been too close to call, it did not pass “because they voted for it”.
And it is absolutely false that the majority of individuals who voted for it were black. While whites on average opposed the proposition, they were also the majority of those who voted for the amendment.
While I agree that “offending blacks” is not an adequate reason to ignore parallels in civil rights efforts (to the extent that they are valid), the vote on Prop 8 does not justify false accusations.
Dennis
December 12th, 2008
According to the statistics I’ve seen, exit polls showed that black voters “voted overwhelmingly against extending to gay people the civil rights once denied them: a staggering 69 – 31 percent African-American margin against marriage equality.”
I’ve seen the same thing said in the San Francisco Chronicle, The Times and on numerous websites.
I’m all for being educated so if you can show me something that contradicts everything I’ve read, I’ll be happy to apologize and rescind my comments. Until then, I maintain my stance: to hell with them.
I’ve fought my whole life for equality and done my best to stamp out stereotypes of black people even when I knew I was in the minority fighting against everyone from my Southern Baptist family to some of the bigoted jerks I work with. This was slap in the face that I cannot forgive.
Dennis
December 12th, 2008
I will make this concession: the vote itself was not decided by the black voters. I was incorrect in that statement and the poor wording was my fault. For that I apologize.
The statistics on the numbers of black voters who voter to approve Prop 8, however, remain. People have made every excuse for these numbers: uneducated, religious, the lack of opportunities of whites and the list goes on.
By that logic, I should hate everyone and want to deny those different from myself ever civil right. I didn’t go to college; my family was poor white trash and could barely afford the clothes we wore (which were usually bought at the good will). I didn’t have the opportunities that many of the people around me had – I watched my friends go off to college and succeed while my father drank himself into a stupor and my mother died in denial. I was drug through the Baptist church for my entire childhood and up until about eight years ago (after about twenty thousand dollars in therapy) I couldn’t go outside my apartment if I saw the number 666 pop up for fear the devil was breathing down my neck. I’ve fought for everything I have and that includes the person I am. But I digress. My point is, the oppressed have become the oppressors and it is thoroughly disgusting regardless of how my liberal brethren would like to spin the reasons behind the numbers on Proposition 8.
And please don’t mistake my anger as only being directed at black people who voted for the proposition. Those numbers were just the most shocking. I feel the same about any minority who would seize and opportunity to deny another minority a civil right. They are disgusting individuals who are not deserving of my respect nor are they deserving of my compassion.
Will that change? I’m sure it will. It always does and I always go back to the fight because its what I believe is right. But right now, at this moment, in front of this computer, I don’t have any fight left in me. I’m using my hard earned white middle class status for everything its worth and that makes me sick to my stomach to think that I’ve allowed myself to sink that low. But anger is a powerful driving force and I’m very, very angry. And my heart is hurting because of it.
Mark O.
December 12th, 2008
Presidential is the new black.
Gay is the new married.
Timothy Kincaid
December 12th, 2008
Dennis,
I don’t dispute the numbers. But I caution you from statements of this sort: “They are disgusting individuals who are not deserving of my respect nor are they deserving of my compassion.”
Regardless of your anger, I think in a calmer moment you might consider that ALL people – even those with whom you disagree – are deserving of respect and compassion.
And consider the 31% that voted with us when you write off an entire demographic of the population. Just a few short years ago we would be delighted if we had 31% support for marriage from ANY group. That it is taking the African American community longer to get there is not a reason for disdain or for considering this population as “disgusting individuals”.
I’m encouraged that you intend to – when less angry – return to the fight. Remember, our support for racial equality is not because of what we can get out of it but because it is right. Even if blacks never come to support our equality, we should not let that effect our belief in a world with equal standing. To do so only hurts ourselves.
Jim Burroway
December 12th, 2008
Two more points to consider:
1) One of the many, many complaints against the No on 8 campaign was a lack of outreach to the AA community. There were Black leaders and ministers who sought No on 8’s help and others who offered their voices, influence, and expertise to No on 8. But many reported that No on 8 either didn’t get back with them, or said no thanks, we don’t need your help.
It’s axiomatic in politics that you cannot expect someone’s vote unless you ask for that vote. No on 8 did not ask for their vote, and so it should not surprise anyone to discover that they didn’t get it.
2) In Arkansas, where Amendment 1 banning adoption by gay couples was passed, Blacks and Whites both voted FOR the measure. But more Blacks voted against it (46%) than did Whites (42%).
Priya Lynn
December 12th, 2008
Jim said ” In Arkansas, where Amendment 1 banning adoption by gay couples was passed, Blacks and Whites both voted FOR the measure. But more Blacks voted against it (46%) than did Whites (42%).”
Very interesting. That changes my perception substantially.
Dennis
December 12th, 2008
@Timothy: I’ve read what you wrote over and over and over and each time it makes a little more sense and becomes a little more clear. You are, of course, entirely correct. Thank you for conversing with me; you’ve given me much to think about and nudged me back towards the right direction. I’m still angry and I’m still hurt but I guess the fight for what’s right is never painless. And sometimes that pain blinds me and makes it difficult to look past what I know is wrong to see the way to what I know is right. You’ve helped me to start down that path again for that I am grateful.
@Jim: I was not aware of those statistics and it certainly changes my perceptions as well. Thank you for sharing them with me . . . with us.
I’ve learned a lot from this discussion. I’m happy I chimed in despite the fact that I made myself sound like a horse’s ass in doing so. I like to think of myself as a good person despite the fact that I might not have presented that picture here. I hope you all will forgive my trespass.
Mark F.
December 12th, 2008
The Arkansas measure actually banned all unmarried cohabitating couples from adopting, not just gay ones.
David C.
December 12th, 2008
To: Mark F.,
Which provided the backers of Arkansas Adoption Act with the perfect cover for their bigotry.
It was a triple hypocrisy for them to claim that they were “protecting children”:
1) No child was helped by the act;
2) Single persons that were otherwise qualified were barred from adopting;
3) Unmarried couples, gay or straight that were otherwise qualified were barred from adopting.
Absolutely no child that is a ward of the state of Arkansas or in foster care there benefitted from passage of this act. The only effect was to allow those that favored it to conceal their bigotry while enshrining it in law.
Absolutely disgusting, and repugnantly selfish bigotry, the very worst there is. One group supporting the ban had the audacity to claim that “The Arkansas Adoption Act will increase the number of homes for adoptive and foster care children.” That anybody would fall for this is no credit to the voters of the state, unless they were relentlessly lied to and just didn’t know what was the truth.
Paul
December 13th, 2008
I hope that this comparison would not go further and I will give a few examples why I believe in this.
Yes, this is a big struggle for the GLBTs as a group; but, the community has to make it our fight as the black community made civil rights due to race their fight.
Being a gay black male I have seen discrimination in all forms. I even have been discriminated by my own GLBT brothers and sisters because of my color. So, when I hear this type of comparison I am afraid what this could lead to. I believe we need to work hard as our own group. We need to give strong and VALID reasons why we deserve what we deserve and make sure our house is order in the process. Now, I am not saying that we should not fight and give analogies. Yes, please let us fight this and any discrimination. Again, we need to be careful how you approach something like this. This is what I am trying to convey.
Also, I have to say that many of my GLBTs sisters and brothers will never know what it will be like to walk a mile in my shoes as an African American and the African American community if very sensitive to these type of comparisons. Some of us can hide our sexuality very well, where as I and many of the African American men and women in the community cannot hide our color. If we want to fight, come out and fight.
I am so proud that we are having healthy dialog about this issue. I have always said this is the key to get anywhere and make progress on any issues that one may not be fully aware of or would have never though about. Great job everyone!
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