Box Turtle Bulletin

Iâ€™m wondering if the crowds were any less at Coloradoâ€™s gay ski week?

And does it really matter? The â€œreductionâ€ will not change a thing about the Mormon dogma. Mormons could not care less what gays are or are not coming to Utah for skiing.

Iâ€™m going to love being in Park City this weekend. Besides beautiful weather, the Sundance Film Festival is this week.

And Emily K. might appreciate this little tidbit: The Park City synagogue is hosting some of the documentaries at the SFF. Their little theater is going to give another venue option for those who are not comfortable with going to a certain other P.C. theater owned by a certain other Mormon.

John

cowboy,

You may be right that the Mormons aren’t going to change anything over a gay boycott, but I agree with Timothy that this may reflect a more fundamental change for gay folks. Most gay people that I know in California (including myself) have become very anti-Mormon. The anger is very real and very viceral. Gays may be even more hostile to Mormonism than right wing Evangelicals. I suspect that these feelings are going to be long lasting with open hostility against Mormons by gays for the forseeable future. As a Californian, I think the hostility is well earned.

I could not imagine going to Utah at this time or any time soon. I can’t imagine wanting to be in a Mormon crowd. I won’t patronize a business that I find is owned by a Mormon. And it goes on and on. I know that I am not alone.

cowboy

John,

You say: “I can’t imagine wanting to be in a Mormon crowd…”

Well, then, imagine me.

But, don’t have pity on me. I have fun. I get along with these crazy, mixed-up people and I know I have my frustrations with them at times. But, I love the outdoors here. I have a comfort zone that I don’t think many from outside this State understand. And what is greatest gall to my Mormon friends: is that I AM HAPPY. In spite of all the negativity they (Mormons, et al) want me to throw at me…I just laugh and show them I am not going to let THEM dictate my happiness.

I can see the seething in some people’s eyes when I say I had a good time at this gay function or that gay concert or play. I have a network of friends who keep me sane and I hope we keep each other sane. It’s a struggle at times to be the odd-man in the group but sometimes I relish the uniqueness.

So, you see, John…you’re hurting only yourself if you let this hostility towards Mormons keep YOU from having fun in Utah.

(The preceding was a paid advertisement from the Utah Tourism Council) <—only kidding

Really…I’d personally would love to have you meet some GLTB living the good life here in Utah.

cowboy

I was going to go upstairs and take a shower but I just had to add:

No amount of boycotting or trying to inflict monetary harm is going to change any attitudes… Itâ€™s how we live our lives that is the best testament to our truthiness.

See, how many good people are missing out on a good bowl of Campbell soup because they…well…you get my drift.

Iâ€™ve said it before and Iâ€™ll say it again: I am blessed that I was born gay. Truly a gift.

Zeke

It may come as a big surprise to you cowboy but there are other states that have excellent skiing where we don’t have to put money in Mormon pockets to enjoy it.

I actually prefer to take my holidays in a place where I can be happy without having “all the negativity Mormons want to throw at me”. That might add to the excitement for you but for most of us we would rather spend our money with people who don’t give us negativity. and assaults on our civil rights, in return.

Pomo

Well too bad for Utah.

Some may say what about the non-mormons there. And I say the same thing about them I say about the moderate muslims. When your people are viewed a certain way and you think that way is wrong, you need to be even MORE vocal in your views to combat that.

Just like I try to do with the parts of gaydom that I don’t think are right.

cowboy

Itâ€™s no surprise Zeke. I do know Utah has its problems. Just in last monthâ€™s issue of Conde Nast Traveler their readers rated Deer Valley (close to Park City) third in North America for its ski resort. The downfall: the apres ski/activities was low in Utah. Itâ€™s a perception problem maybe but…still…3rd Place!

Primarily, â€œall the negativityâ€ is mostly in the form of family and Mormon co-workers. I would venture a guess that in all likelihood you wouldnâ€™t get any negativity by coming here on a vacation. Just my opinion.

I just donâ€™t think you are putting money in Mormon pockets with coming here to ski. The State is fairly diverse in Salt Lake City and Park City is known as a chronic thorn in the side of the many orthodox Mormons. So…coming to Park City/Deer Valley and environs would not give any significant advantage to Mormons.

John

cowboy,

I am glad that you are happy in Utah and have found a way to be you within a heavily Mormon context.

I also enjoy the outdoors and had a great time skiing at Kirkwood (just outside of Tahoe). Great weather, great conditions and it’s a whole lot closer than Utah. Also, I didn’t run into one person there who asked me if I was Mormon or treated me with anything other than the friendliest dispostion. I highly recommend the ski resorts around Tahoe.

(Brought to you by the South Lake Tahoe Visitors Bureau…. :-)

Scott P.

cowboy,

I was born and raised in Salt Lake City. Thanks to polygamy I’m related to half the damned state. never caught the religion though.

My lover and I left in ’94, and haven’t looked back. The laws passed since we’ve been gone guarantee we’ll never return, except to make short visits to family. The hostility is now being written into the very fabric of the judicial system there, with laws such as the nullifying of “rights of survivorship” for unrelated homeowners, etc.

Maybe you don’t feel that you’re helping the enemy, but many of us look at the taxes (which are very high, despite claims by the Mormon church) that are levied on any money spent and don’t want to assist that screwed up state anymore than we have to.

Emily K

cowboy I’m glad to hear that the Jewish community is continuing its time-honored tradition in America of Tikkun Olam, “Healing the World,” by aiding in furthering the social justice of the queer community out in Utah.

cowboy

Emily K,
The Synagogue is gorgeous. I havenâ€™t been inside it yet but when I drove past last week I would say it is an architectural delight. I hope I get a chance to view the insides later this week.

Scott P,
I have lost count, the number of my friends who have escaped from the Zion Curtain. I envy them sometimes. I miss them too. They tell me there is life outside of Utah.

I respect your decision to stay away and from giving any semblance of support. But, while Iâ€™m here Iâ€™m going to be the burr under the Mormon saddle. Iâ€™ll be here to keep reminding some Mormons that Utah is not a theocracy.

John,
I love Tahoe too. Particularly, the Marriott vacation village there. :-) I love Whistler and Jackson Hole (both of which have new gondolas I want to try). But, I have heard it said: You can fly from Los Angeles or San Francisco and get to a Utah ski resort faster than some who has to drive to ski resorts in California. (okay…okay…maybe Iâ€™m reading too many Utah Tourist Bureau brochures.)

I will admit: Utah needs gays. It needs their tourism dollars. I would venture a guess there are a lot of potential gay dollars burning holes in many pockets out there and Utah (Iâ€™m speaking of the Legislature) needs to recognize the revenue potential…even to advertise in gay media.

But, even if every gay person leaves Utah…every convention is cancelled at the Salt Palace…hotel rooms vacancy rates go through the roof…it will not change anything with those insulated men in white shirts and suits who sit in the grand council rooms at the thick-granite walled LDS Church headquarters.

Where you get Mormon Church Elders attention: itâ€™s all the â€œnegativeâ€ publicity they get. It makes them nervous. Just witness the orchestrated media event the LDS Church manipulated on the press last week. They were responding to the â€œnegative attributesâ€ associated with the Mormons lately. ABC news fell right into their hands. The tour of the new LDS Temple in Draper was supposed to squelch the secret (read: cultish) aspects of Mormons. Good try but when Mormons controlled the media event even to the point of not allowing any cameras into the Temple…then you have compromised journalistic integrity. Plus, no one dared ask the really important questions. It was pure media fluff.

Scott P.

cowboy,

As I’m sure you’re aware, you don’t go digging in a Mormon’s sex life for the real dirt (although there’s plenty to be found) you dig in his business dealings. People think Mormons are all fuzzy and naive, but they’ll cut your (and your mother’s throat) to make a buck.

I did a tv show once where a character said (jokingly) “When there’s a dirty job to be done, you can’t go wrong with a Mormon.” How very, VERY true.

cowboy

Scott P.,
I wouldnâ€™t agree with such a sweeping generalization of Mormons. While there is a certain element of truth to the phrase: â€œBeing a Sunday Mormonâ€ meaning: youâ€™re in Church on Sunday and taking the sacrament and being all kind and neighborly, but come Mondayâ€¦all bets are off and itâ€™s every man for himself. Screw the next guy. Cut people off at the freeway exits and then use the one-finger gestureâ€¦ They were just in Church yesterday!

But I could say that about a number of members of any other religious group. A â€œSunday Baptistâ€â€¦ A â€œSunday Methodistâ€â€¦ A â€œSaturday Jewâ€.

I know some pretty good Mormons and theyâ€™re not like that. Like: my immediate family.

Iâ€™m still wondering if the economy and not the â€œboycott Utahâ€ thing had/will have some affect on gay skiers. Did Colorado have a reduction at their gay ski week? Will Whistler see a decrease in attendance at their WinterPride festivities next month? There might be other reasons for the cancellation of Utahâ€™s gay ski week. Perhaps there wasnâ€™t a great deal of organization? Or there is another gay ski week in the planning in conjunction with QUACs (Queer Utah Aquatic Club) and it would be redundant to host two gay ski weekends.

Scott P.

cowboy,

Never heard it said as “Sunday Mormon” always heard it as a “jack Mormon.”

Yes, what I wrote earlier is a truism, but I don’t turn my back on one of the brethren when it comes to money.

cowboy

Ah HA! I was right. There is a ski-n-swim (hosted by the QUAC) in February.

I think everyone will likely attend that gay event instead.

Oh…and in case you were wondering…with ski-n-swim, they don’t ski in just their Speedos. Nor do they swim with their skis on.

I’ll be there! And I’ll be in Park City for the Sundance Film Festival this weekend. Look for me. (Hint: I love Phillip Morris.)

Timothy Kincaid

cowboy,

If I understand correctly, the Utah G&L Ski Week is a “go to Utah to ski” event, not a local event and is not planned by QUAC. I very much doubt that the ski and swim event had any impact at all on the Park City event.

Also, my point is not that the gay community has become anti-Mormon, but rather that it is no longer complacent and willing to overlook things that might have been acceptable just a few months ago.

cowboy

The QUAC ski-n-swim is not a local gay event. It’s a “come to Utah to ski and to swim” event. Much on the same level as the WinterPride or the Colorado gay ski weekend.

I think this is a competitive swimming event with gay swimming clubs coming from all over the country. The skiing is optional since the host hotel is the Snowbird Cliff Lodge Hotel. It’s a bigger event than the standard gay ski weekend.

And, yes, I do know there has been an adjustment in attitudes with gays and Utah. It’s more of the “us” versus “them” mentality only more intense now.

Oh…and Snowbird Cliff Lodge is quite the hotel…especially the spa and the roof-top pool. Very cool to swim under the stars on a cold winter night.

(However, the swimming competition will be at the University of Utah’s natatorium.)

TonyJazz

Here’s one vote for ‘why in the world would Cowboy spend his money there?’.

Maybe he’s one of the few readers of Gay Patriot or some such foolishness.

I prefer to spend my money more smartly.

People like cowboy hurt himself and our community. Spend our money in places that welcome us, not despise us! (He might as well make a donation to the ‘Mormon church of much money’)

And shame on the gay filmmakers showing their stuff at Sundance. They should have chosen a different venue!

cowboy

What?! So, gays living in Utah are just collateral damage in this conflict with the Mormons?

And filmmakers have to find another venue for their careers in just a little more than two months (from November to January).

Wellâ€¦ geeâ€¦Mr. Jazz, Thanks. Thank you very much. Your capacity for tolerance and understanding overwhelms me. [/sarcasm]

Scott P.

cowboy,

Collateral damage is inevitable in war, even a culture war.

Think I should just helplessly accept the possible nullification of my marriage to my lover of 29 years because to do otherwise might cause some passing discomfort to gay people in Utah?

As to Sundance…. well, I’m in the business, and believe me, if some indy film maker announced that he/she had pulled a film from Sundance they’d get an instant audience here in L.A.

We didn’t hurt the Mormon church, they started this, we’ll finish it.

TonyJazz

Cowboy,

It makes sense if you’ve got family in Utah that you would visit them and still appreciate them.

On the other hand, if you have options to go elsewhere and do the same as in Utah, then why spend the money there?

I do my best to spend my money in supportive ways.

Tolerance? Isn’t that what the Christians owe us (minimally)? And isn’t that what the Mormons failed to exhibit?

Sorry, cowboy, as you may be on the immoral side of this issue….

(and thanks for the rational response, Scott)

cowboy

Perhaps I need to clear up a little confusion here. I live in Utah.

And, I don’t begrudge anyone from spending their money any way they see fit.

I’m not sure you realize I’m on YOUR side of this issue (gay equality).

And, again, I must reiterate: all the spiteful energy you evoke towards your enemy will not change their dogma.

TonyJazz

Good response, cowboy.

All the best & np….

(I think the Mormon church will surprise us someday and be supportive of the gay community. The church is so family-supportive that it seems to be a logical next-step. I just wish they would not cause the harm that they are presently doing. I stopped going to Hawaii after the church spent all that money to prevent gay marriage there… Anyone who has been to Hawaii in recent years can tell you of the collapse of the gay tourist industry there…)

cowboy

Thanks TonyJazz,
I hope you see where I want to steer crass generalizations about our enemy away from this discussion.

The doctrine of family and the â€œfamily is foreverâ€ is a trademark of the LDS Church. Itâ€™s what they want their niche in the branding of churches. So, I would not expect to see a gay marriage performed in a Mormon temple in my lifetime nor in many generations to come. Therefore, our energies should be directed at a simple task: Make the Saints (the members of the LDS Church realize their posturing in the civil rights political arena has ramifications.

Gay equality is and will always be a civil-rights issue. I truly believe many of the members of the LDS Church are now realizing they innocently or unintentionally caused harm to a segment of society. They were duped by the propaganda and they now have to reconcile that fact with believing in doing exactly as their Prophet directed them to do. This has caused some Latter-Day Saints to question their leaders. Which is always a good thingâ€¦especially with a culture so close to being a cult.

One other point:
Before the election I could sense the pride and boastfulness of the LDS Church here in Utah. Nobody really could have known the outcome of the election but I knew that a win for the Mormons on this political issue would embolden them. And it has.

At the press conference just last week, I heard one of the Mormon General Authorities boast about their organizational skills, their volunteerism and their strategies they used to get California Proposition 8 and Proposition 2 in Arizona passed. You have to admit, they can lay claim to being a very powerful political force.

So, we need to change our tactics. We need to show how well organized we are. We can be a well-oiled machine too.

And, taking our energy in making spiteful actions is not very effectiveâ€¦ at least in this case with boycotting Utah, the Sundance Film Festival, etc. Thatâ€™s just my opinion.

Scott,
I would so love to have a 29th anniversary someday with someone. You are truly blessed. I mean that.

Scott P.

Okay, cowboy, since you’ve denigrated the efforts that others here have made, what would you do? Don’t you think boycotting tourism and loudly proclaiming why, hits the LDS church in it’s public image? I don’t they give a good goddamn what gays do and only a relentless action against them on ALL fronts will get their attention.

cowboy

Scott P.
Just as you have denigrated gays in Utah by being cavalier about collateral damage?

Do you think that the head of the Utah Tourism…no…wait…even the Governor of the State of Utah would go to the Mormon HQ and plead for a change in their dogma? Would you think all the Utah hotel chains would be seen pleading to the Prophet and the General Authorities of the LDS Church? Even if every convention left the State and corporations removed Utah as one place to do business… it would not change how the will of the Mormon Church would exercise its vast resources. Not one bit.

If you want to hit the LDS Church in its public image: YOU, as being a representative of being gay, should demonstrate the good aspects of homosexuality and fight the propaganda and the demonizing of gays. WE need to explain to them how their money and power has made you and me a second-class citizen. We should also enlighten the members of the LDS Church with examples of happy gay couples.

And then, finally, show how silly (and ultimately costly) it was to lay claim to the word: marriage. Their only reason for supporting Proposition 8 was bigotry.

Save your efforts/energy on making spiteful boycotting motions and work, instead, to change perceptions, get involved politically, bring about more public awareness in films about gays, etc.

Attmay

Sign me up for the War on Utah. I will not support Mormon-owned businesses, allow Mormons into my house, or talk to Mormons. And I will not support anything based in that state.

Tommy

The point is not to “plead to the prophet,” the point is to not give the prophet our money so he can turn around and use it to hurt us.

They can rely on their own resources, rather than us giving them ours to turn against us.

John

cowboy,

I find it interesting that the Mormons are now being emboldened by their success in Prop 8. I think that by showing how much money they had to throw around and manipulate an election has weakened them.

Most Evangelicals have been suspicious of them for a while. Now they have even more to worry about in terms of Mormons using their money and organization to try to impose Mitt Romney or some other Mormon Republican at the head of the GOP. I think there will be a backlash against them on the Right.

Also, now Democrats are hip to Church interference in politics. It would be to the Dems advantage to expose the hidden hand of the Church manipulating the behind the scenes of elections.

They thought that they could do this all on the under, but now that their cover is blown, they aren’t going to be able to to easily hide their hunger for political power.

cowboy