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The usefulness of Georgia Log Cabin Republicans

Timothy Kincaid

June 12th, 2010

Two Republican gubernatorial candidates in Georgia are playing the ‘Who Hates Gays More’ game. Each is declaring that they are the more conservative because the other momentarily on some issue at some time may have taken anything other than a Kill ‘Em attitude.

Yes, Georgia Republicans are a pretty nasty group of people. But one of the more amusing parts of this battle is also an illustration of how Log Cabin, the gay Republican group, can be useful.

I’m sure that by now some of you have already thought up an angry denunciation of the group, and a few have already typed it. This is not a particularly rare attitude in our community. In fact, last night an acquintance told me, “I hate Log Cabin Republicans! I hate them!” If I respected his opinion, I might have argued, but I don’t give much attention to people who start sentences with “I hate.”

But for those who have a healthy skepticism about Log Cabin, take this story into consideration:

In 2002, Karen Handel was running for Fulton County Commission. Log Cabin approached her and she expressed support for some gay issues.

But that’s all fine and good in Fulton County. Now that Handel is running for a statewide office, she is claiming that she never ever supported domestic partnerships. No sirree, she’s a true-blue homophobe and how dare her opponent suggest otherwise.

But here’s where Log Cabin proves it’s usefulness.

But e-mails sent from Handel’s account in 2002 to the head of the Georgia Log Cabin Republicans appear to tell a different story.

“I do support domestic partner benefits, and confirm my position here,” Handel wrote to Marc Yeager on July 29, 2002.

Yeager provided copies of his e-mails with Handel to The Associated Press and several other media outlets.

Handel said the e-mail was actually written by Matt Montgomery, the campaign manager in the Fulton County race, and that it misstated her position.

“I never had any kind of idea or feeling that I was communicating with someone other than Karen,” Yeager told The AP.

Handel, he said, also told him in conversations that she supported domestic partner benefits. He’s convinced her position on the issue has changed with her political aspirations. Fulton County is home to a large and politically active gay community. Voters that are critical to winning a race there can be a liability in a statewide contest.

Ooops.

There are other organizations with other partisan alliances who would have looked at the situation and said, “oh, but she’s actually more supportive in private so we’ll cover for her.” We see that all the time with certain segments of Gay, Inc.

But I appreciate that Marc Yeager and Log Cabin Georgia did not. They approached her in a Republican setting, got her on record, tied it down in email, and exposed her hypocrisy when she tried to backtrack. And that is something that really only a gay Republican group could have done.

And I like it when our community says, “hey, we’re not going to be used.” And the obsession with who is more bigoted than the other can only drive independents and moderates – assuming such a thing exists in Georgia – away from whoever wins the primary.

Comments

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Lucrece
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

I don’t hate them. I think they’re useless on the federal level.

I used to believe in them, especially when they had the balls to deny GWB sponsorship.

But then they went all clear signs in the last election and gleefully endorsed McCain and Palin, open homophobes. Not only did they sell out the interest of their community and opted for the partisan track (common in Democrats, too– see NJ), they SPINNED the ticket as the second coming, a duo of mavericks in tolerance.

Now watch how McCain is building his campaign with a war against DADT repeal, the least controversial of LGBT bills.

That’s just not something I can forgive the LCR for a long time. Sure, at least they’re not GOProud (backstabbing Campbell in favor of Fiorina was LOW), but they’re not much better.

And when in the House 90% of Democrats voted for DADT repeal, but only ~1% of Republicans did, it’s clear which party in general is not hostile to the LGBT community.

Yeah, there are the Ike Skeltons, but as shown by the DADT vote they’re a small, small group. Now grab Ike Skelton, clone him 100+ times, and there you’ve got the Republican House members.

Ideally we should not be prisoners to one party. A system where both parties vie for our vote would be ideal. However, I think this will sadly be a case where Republicans will not come around at all until SCOTUS rules in our favor and most of the country has moved beyond hate-mongering.

That is, an era with a non-homophobic Republican party is generations away, and I’m not sure they’ll ever be able to atone for what they’ve put the LGBT community through. Much like how Republicans forever lost the black vote.

HJones
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

I thank you for informing us about something good the Log Cabins have done.

And yes, Georgia has independents and moderates. And some of us are gay and democrats.

Robert
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

Thank you for this! I am glad they did this. And you’re right – this is something that only a Republican group could have done.

I am also grateful for them living in Georgia – have to confess, I wouldn’t have the courage for that myself.

Ben in Oakland
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

I’m not sure of what they accomplished, other than to take the person who perhaps was reachable, expose her hypicrisy so that the more homophobic have a reason not to vote for her and to vote for one of themselves, instead.

That’s the problem with the closet. It perverts and dsitorts everything ti touches.

Ray
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

I don’t know that GA LCR did gays any favors since the debate is a tit for tat between two homophobes. Her opponent, Nathan Deal, seems to be making hay with this and guess what – he sounds 100 times WORSE than Handel. I wouldn’t vote for either of them under *any* circumstances and not for *any* office. It’s possible that Log Cabin Repubs are actually in support of Nathan Deal and are using their previous relationship with Handel to trash her campaign. Both LCP and GOProud both are on record for supporting sickening anti-gay bigots for office. That I cannot do and it’s the reason I identify myself as a conservative and not a Republican.

I don’t think GA LCR scores any points here.

Samuel
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

The gay community owes a lot of credit to both GOProud and Log Cabin. A previous group called ‘The Austin 12′ made inroads with George Bush and got him to soften his anti-gay stances. When McCain was campaigning, Log Cabin got him to embrace conservative gay men (especially soldiers). When we look at all the horrendous legislation from the Democrat Party leaders like Bill Clinton, Bush looks incredible in comparison. It’s time of us to stop demonizing those at the forefront like Mary Cheney and Mark Buse (McCain’s Chief of Staff). GOProud is making tremendous inroads, especially in California where they have endorsed a pro-gay female candidate.

Ryan
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

What exactly was accomplished? They embarrassed one homophobe, while helping another. And since they’re Republicans, they’re gonna be voting for her anyway. Either that, or her opponent. Either way, homophobes win, gays lose. Mission Accomplished, Log Cabinites.

Ryan
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

Samuel, McCain has gone virulently anti-gay. He has especially made it a point to go after gay soldiers. You info is out of date. Mary Cheney also makes it a point to financially support politicians who think she is unfit to be a parent. There’s no gay friendly candidate on the GOP side in Ca, either. I’m not sure who you’re referring to.

Neil D
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

I get that the LCR’s are conservative. They are no different than straight conservatives except for their sex life. I guess they’ve made a calculation that they would be better off financially with conservative policies and politics so they are willing to suffer some indignity in exchange. I get that. We all make compromises.

But let’s not pretend they are anything special. They are certainly NOT, in my opinion, useful to the cause for equality.

Emily K
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

I personally can’t stand either party. That’s why this queer is registered Unaffiliated.

TampaZeke
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

Samuel, what color is the sky in your world?

Neil D
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

I wonder if Mr. Kincaid thinks Democrats or liberals have ever been useful to the gay community? Where are his posts praising them? I’m sure I just missed them, so please provide a list so I can educate myself.

Is Box Turtle just an forum for gay conservatives attempting to convince us the GOP deep down doesn’t hate us?

They are good at whacking the extremists but are strangely silent on the every day (and less dramatic) anti-gay rhetoric of the GOP.

John
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

I’m actually kind of sympathetic to the Log Cabin Republicans. I don’t agree with them on almost anything except gay rights issues. I really do think/hope that they can serve a purpose by getting enough gay republicans into government and on campaigns so that pro gay rights or at least nonhateful republicans will be elected in greater and greater proportions. I seriously doubt that from a lobbying standpoint the LCR will have much impact but gay conservatives should be able to have some by voicing their opinions in private and working to get pro-gay rights republicans elected.

Samuel
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

John: “gay conservatives should be able to have some by voicing their opinions in private and working to get pro-gay rights republicans elected.”

I take it that you are a typical liberal extremist. You completely misunderstand and mistate the whole mission of Log Cabin and GOProud. Both organizations have said repeatedly that the gay lifestyle is only a miniscule priority in their lives and that many many other things take precedence (ending the death tax, winning the Global War on Terror, liberating Iraq, cleaning up the failed liberal school system with vouchers and private Christain schools, etc). Unlike liberals, gay Republicans don’t put all that much importance on sex acts, S&M, barebacking etc. They already believe they have the right to do anything they want in private, so they don’t want special rights.

John in the Bay Area
June 12th, 2010 | LINK

Quite apart from the issue of Republican or Democrat, I like that someone who pretended to be in favor of equality paid a price for stabbing her gay constituents in the back. I think that politicians should pay for anti-gay actions, and gay groups (regardless of their affiliation) should make these sorts of betrayals painful.

Only recently has the president’s feet been held to the fire for his administrations disgusting betrayals of the gay and lesbian Americans who voted for him. Guess what? Pressure works. We are only now starting to see some movement from our so called “fierce advocate” in the White House.

Some politicians only respond to hardball, and we are going to have to start learning how to play that game.

Lynn David
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

Wow. I didn’t know conservative gays, aka LCRs and and GOProud were into scandalizing and demonizing their liberal brothers for political gain like Samuel just tried to do.

Sure didn’t know they were into promoting private Christian schools over existing public ones since GW Bush’s failed ‘no child left behind’ was the big republican putsch in that arena.

Emily K
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

Samuel said:

I take it that you are a typical liberal extremist.

and

Both organizations have said repeatedly that the gay lifestyle is only a miniscule priority in their lives…

and

Unlike liberals, gay Republicans don’t put all that much importance on sex acts, S&M, barebacking etc. They already believe they have the right to do anything they want in private, so they don’t want special rights.

You can’t carry on a civilized debate on this blog if you use the terms “gay lifestyle,” “special rights,” and resort to name-calling like “typical liberal extremist.”

Nobody here has mentioned sex acts, let alone placed any importance on them. In fact since “Sodomy” laws are no longer enforceable, I have yet to come across anybody compaigning openly for the right to do what they want in their bedrooms. It’s all about legal equality these days in the arenas of marriage and the like. But it seems you believe being gay is all about sex – and as long as people can have sex the way they want, everything is just peachy.

being open about being attracted to the same sex no longer means embodying a stereotype from the late 1970s. Quite a bit has changed since then.

truthteller
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

I’ve noticed this is, or has become, a stealth pro GOP site. This is the second article I read with a very strong Republicans bias in a few weeks. The other being an endorsement of a candidate for California’s governorship I’d rather not name.

Where are the praises on the Democrats and all the good work they try to do for the GLBT community?

They should just come out of the closet and declare their affiliation.

I am not a Democrat so don’t go there with me.

Priya Lynn
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

While what the Georgia log cabins did was principled and I agree with it I also agree with other commenters that this was no benefit to gay equality.

Lucrece said “That is, an era with a non-homophobic Republican party is generations away”.

And I thought I was pessimistic. I doubt very much that such a Republican party is generations away. In the 60’s they were an anti-black party and by the 80’s or perhaps even the 70’s they had done a complete 180. It won’t be that long until its socially unacceptable to most people to be anti-gay and then you’ll see Republicans drop their anti-gay position like a hot potato.

Samuel said “I take it that you are a typical liberal extremist. You completely misunderstand and mistate the whole mission of Log Cabin and GOProud. Both organizations have said repeatedly that the gay lifestyle is only a miniscule priority in their lives…Unlike liberals, gay Republicans don’t put all that much importance on sex acts, S&M, barebacking etc. They already believe they have the right to do anything they want in private, so they don’t want special rights.”.

Wow, you get the hypocrisy award for calling a somewhat supportive of log cabinners commenter an extremist when that’s just what you are. You trivialize sexual orientation and imply its a choice by refering to the non-existant “gay lifestyle” just like the most rabid of homophobes do. Just like the typical anti-gay bigot you claim liberal gays are all about sex acts, S&M and bare backing. Just like all those who seek to deny gays equality you hatefully characterize the honest search for justice as seeking “special rights”. People like you are the reason why so many see Log Cabin Republicans and GOProud as self-loathing gays. People like you are the reason why Timothy’s aquaintence said “I hate Log Cabin Republicans! I hate them!”. People like you the reason why Timothy’s claim that his aquaintence’s opinion doesn’t deserve respect holds little water.

tavdy79
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

If I were the Georgia Log Cabiners, here’s the short form of how I’d word their statement:

“Karen Handel, who’s claiming to be a bigot said in the past that she’s not. That makes her a hypocrite. So if you want to vote for hypocrisy vote for Handel, and if you want to vote for bigotry choose (whoever her GOP opponent is).”

darkmoonman
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

I got my dose of GA Republicans when I lived there for a decade. They’re as warped as their straight counterparts, and will lie through their teeth whenever possible. The Log Cabin Republicans’ answer to winning equality? Go back in the closet and pretend to be straight.

Ryan
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

You said it, tavdy. Tim is obviously an extremely smart guy, but I’m genuinely confused as to how this internal GOP squabble was “useful”. If anything, it seems like the lesson learned was “don’t support the gay community; it will come back later to hurt you politically”.

John
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

John (the other one): “I don’t agree with them on almost anything except gay rights issues.

While about 1/4 of gays seem to agree with LCR & GOProud on more than just the gay rights issues. This would include myself. Where I part with them is excusing the GOP too much on gay rights, which is why I vote third party and occasionally Democrat where I can.

John (the other one): “I really do think/hope that they can serve a purpose by getting enough gay republicans into government and on campaigns so that pro gay rights or at least nonhateful republicans will be elected in greater and greater proportions. I seriously doubt that from a lobbying standpoint the LCR will have much impact but gay conservatives should be able to have some by voicing their opinions in private and working to get pro-gay rights republicans elected.”

Beyond a handful of GOP politicians on the national level I doubt they have much influence. Where I see the LCR & GOProud having some effect is the gradual blunting of anti-gay rhetoric and putting some GOP politicians on the defensive as gay rights slowly makes advances. Where I think both groups may have the most impact is when we reach the tipping point on gay rights by helping to sideline the worst of anti-gay politicos and giving the GOP a way forward in the new political environment that will come. After a period of time following I’d like to see them close up shop, along with similiar Democrat groups, because while I see the necessity of them now I hate identity politics.

John
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

Samuel: “You completely misunderstand and mistate the whole mission of Log Cabin and GOProud. Both organizations have said repeatedly that the gay lifestyle is only a miniscule priority in their lives and that many many other things take precedence (ending the death tax, winning the Global War on Terror, liberating Iraq, cleaning up the failed liberal school system with vouchers and private Christain schools, etc). Unlike liberals, gay Republicans don’t put all that much importance on sex acts, S&M, barebacking etc. They already believe they have the right to do anything they want in private, so they don’t want special rights.

Which under Obama is the same attitude we are seeing from gay liberal groups like HRC. Yet however imperfect these groups have been and as much as I disagree with them on other political issues it is absurd not to recognize their great contribution in move gay rights forward. You cannot possibly tell me that sodomy laws would have abolished by conservatives, let alone the growing acceptance gays are finding in society-at-large. The fact of the matter is that we need both ends of the political spectrum as they help move the debate forward on all issues, which acts as the crucible for better ideas, and the competition between both help keep the excesses of the other in check. I fear living in a completely conservative country just as much as I do one that’s radically liberal. Neither by itself and unchecked is healthy for the nation.

John
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

truthteller: “I’ve noticed this is, or has become, a stealth pro GOP site. This is the second article I read with a very strong Republicans bias in a few weeks. The other being an endorsement of a candidate for California’s governorship I’d rather not name.

If BRB is a “stealth pro GOP site” than Jim & Timothy are doing a very poor job. You must not read this site that often because if you did you would know that Timothy has made no secret of his more conservative political leanings while Jim is more liberal. Being gay doesn’t make one a liberal any more than becoming a Christian makes on a conservative.

Where are the praises on the Democrats and all the good work they try to do for the GLBT community?

Are you asking Jim & Timothy to act as sycophants for the DNC? That hardly has brought about great success for the gay community. Look around a bit more because when warranted both of them have praised Democrats and they are not afraid to criticize them as well.

I am not a Democrat so don’t go there with me.

Well you certainly do seem to be carrying enough water for them even if your membership card has been lost.

Neil D
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

If LCR and other gay republicans / conservatives think the defending the gay lifestlyle is a miniscule priority, why do they bother calling themselves gay?

OK, I understand the larger point. There are important issues beyond equality that need advocacy. Gay Republicans have relegated equality to the back burner. They hope someday their intellectual soul mates will eventually acknowledge their humanity but are willing to look the other way for now.

While you are pursuing more important things, the rest of us will work with our actual friends on equality. You get the best of both worlds. Don’t forget to say thanks.

We’ve come so far and yet so many remain dissatisfied or are ungrateful for the support of our friends. What’s up with that?

I’ll consider voting Republican when they stop telling me I’m a criminal and change their platform to advocate for equality.

I’m guessing there are many who, in the face of oppression, think that if they are nice to their oppressors, they will be better off than if they resist. That might even make sense in a society where there is no credible support for resistance but that’s not our situation.

lb
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

Wow! Stupid enough to live in Georgia and be a Republican….

That person must be very SPECIAL!

cooner
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

Samuel: “[LCR and GOProud] have said repeatedly that the gay lifestyle is only a miniscule priority in their lives and that many many other things take precedence.”

I hear this argument a lot: War and economy and other national issues take precedence over a handful of pocket concerns of a minority of citizens.

But you know, this argument can be turned on its head: With so many other larger problems, why do conservatives spend so much time and energy go out of their way to deny a few scraps to a group of people that would tremendously improve their lives? We’re only asking to be allowed to obtain already-existing marriage licenses to have access to already-existing benefits thereof, or to be able to openly join the already-existing army, etc. It’s not like we’re asking to build public transit or a new health care system from scratch, y’know. (Plus these are things, that, y’know, you’d think conservatives would be happy about promoting … getting people to serve willingly in defense of their country, or to enter into a social and legal arrangement that promotes monogamy and family values.)

For a concrete example, look at Prop 8 in California … over $60M was ultimately spent because some conservatives decided that taking away marriage rights that had already been granted by the State Supreme Court took precedence over … well, really almost everything else that year. Great call, guys.

I can see how rabid Christianists operate out of a fear that OMG HOMOS WILL DESTROY EVERYTHING. But I’d like to thing that LCR’s, being gay themselves, would recognize that gays aren’t out to destroy society and that if we could just get all this anti-gay campaigning and legislation out of the way, we could focus more on war, economy, etc.

truthteller
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

@John

Being conservative and supporting or even cheering for people who loathe you, simply for being who you are, are two very different things.

I may be conservative in some issues but I’ll be damned if I’m going to cheer for someone who compares me to pedophiles, bestiality and other evils. That would make me a self-loathing man.

“Well you certainly do seem to be carrying enough water for them even if your membership card has been lost.”

Nice juvenile attempt at attempting to shame me into silence. I carry water for no one and I take personal responsibility for my decisions. I left the Democratic party, my membership card has not been lost. Do you understand the difference? One is a man in power the other is a victim, which by the tone of your post sounds more like projections of your state of mine.

I give credit where credit is due. The Democrats have tried to help and at least they’re not the homophobic bashers the GOP as a whole is.

Being Christian means being whole and understanding you are created in God’s image. It requires thinking and analyzing the scriptures in the cultural and literary context of the times it was written. It does NOT mean accepting others judgment of you as inferior.

Conservative seems to mean accepting the notion of gay people being inferior and unholy, compared to the perfect heterosexuals.

Jesus was a huge Liberal!

Emily K
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

Neither party is a party of action when it comes to Equality. But at least Dems give lip service. Hillary mentioned gay rights at the DNC during the 2008 election. GOP? nothing. GOP: “marriage is between a man and a woman, i don’t hate gays though.” Dems: “I support civil unions which is kinda like marriage but segregated. just don’t expect me to vote for even that shred of dignity when push comes to shove and it’s an election year.” Neither is good, but if we’re honest, the latter is better than the former. I’d rather have a lame duck supporter than an active opposition.

And I think cooner makes an excellent point about the converse of having “other more pertinent issues at hand.”

John
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

truthteller: “I may be conservative in some issues but I’ll be damned if I’m going to cheer for someone who compares me to pedophiles, bestiality and other evils. That would make me a self-loathing man.

Since I’m a member of neither group I can only assume that they would say that they are either not doing so or considering all issues that factor into each election they are choosing the lesser of two evils. However, I’ll let actual LCR & GOProud defend themselves on this as they wish.

Nice juvenile attempt at attempting to shame me into silence.

You mean like your similar attempt to do so with Timothy and BRB? At least try and disguise the hypocrisy a little better than this.

I carry water for no one and I take personal responsibility for my decisions. I left the Democratic party, my membership card has not been lost. Do you understand the difference?

More than you realize, only from the opposite end of the political spectrum. Guess what? Stick around and you’ll hear Timothy say something similar.

I give credit where credit is due. The Democrats have tried to help and at least they’re not the homophobic bashers the GOP as a whole is.

I’m sure that some of them certainly are, just like some Republicans. Yet like the GOP exploits pro-lifers for money and votes so has the DNC treated gays. Oh both whisper pretty words in the ears of their base, speaks about the evils of the “other” and may even toss a few crumbs now and then, but spending real political capital? Without a significant game-changer it ain’t gonna happen.

Being Christian means being whole and understanding you are created in God’s image. It requires thinking and analyzing the scriptures in the cultural and literary context of the times it was written. It does NOT mean accepting others judgment of you as inferior.

With the exception of the last item, this sounds suspiciously like a Protestant notion of what being a Christian entails which is something Catholic & Orthodox Christians would object find woefully inadequate. As to the last item, besides a few fringe groups such would seem to be universally Christian belief, which guess what? Even most truly homophobic Christians would agree with the Augustinian concept popularly known today as “hate the sin love the sinner”. Of course we’ve seen how this actually tends to mask sinful pride and hatred in some, with “hate” being applied to both.

Conservative seems to mean accepting the notion of gay people being inferior and unholy, compared to the perfect heterosexuals.

Wrong and Barry Goldwater would undoubtedly want to kick you in the nuts for making such a false charge just as much as he expressed a desire to do likewise to Jerry Falwell.

Jesus was a huge Liberal!

I see that the anachronistic exploitative misuse of an historical and religious figure isn’t limited to some conservatives. Jesus was neither a conservative nor a liberal in the context of modern American politics.

John
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

EmilyK: In some ways I disagree. I prefer my enemies to be in front where I can an eye on them instead of their pretending they’re my friends only to not be there when needed or slip the knife in my back when I’m not looking.

Timothy (TRiG)
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

Good grief American politics is confusing.

TRiG.

Truthteller
June 13th, 2010 | LINK

@John

There was no hypocrisy on my part. I was clear, concise and to the point. I’m sure Timothy is quite capable of clarifying his position. This is his blog, right?

You are speaking for everyone except for yourself. These are your quotes:

“You mean like your similar attempt to do so with Timothy and BRB? At least try and disguise the hypocrisy a little better than this.”

“Since I’m a member of neither group I can only assume…”

… which is something Catholic & Orthodox Christians would object find woefully inadequate.”

“Wrong and Barry Goldwater would undoubtedly want to kick you in the nuts for making such a false charge just as much as he expressed a desire to do likewise to Jerry Falwell.”

You talk to him lately? are you personal friends with him? He’s dead. And the present GOP is not the same kind of conservative he was. That is why he wanted to kick Falwell’s ass!!!

“Jesus was neither a conservative nor a liberal in the context of modern American politics.”

Care to share your data on this?

Jesus drank (wine) and ate with tax collectors and other sinners. Luke 7:34

Read Luke 7:40-48. and Matthew 25:31-46, just for starters. It doesn’t get more liberal than that.

So when are you going to express your own thoughts instead of mind-reading what others would say?

Do you have your own opinion or are you just interested in arguing for the sake of arguing?

I stand by my previous post and unless you have something of your own to contribute I will no longer waste my time responding to you.

werdna
June 14th, 2010 | LINK

@TRig-And Irish politics isn’t? Maybe we can try to explain them to each other over a few pints some time!

John
June 14th, 2010 | LINK

truthteller: “There was no hypocrisy on my part. I was clear, concise and to the point. I’m sure Timothy is quite capable of clarifying his position. This is his blog, right?

Certainly because wrong thinking will be punished while right thinking will be rewarded. Whom do you think you’re fooling? You were calling him out and attempting to shame him because he strayed from some partisan line you erroneously believe all gays must toe.

You are speaking for everyone except for yourself. These are your quotes…

When I am speaking for others I’ll be sure to inform you, otherwise I’m clearly offering nothing more than my opinions which are subject to correction by such persons.

You talk to him lately? are you personal friends with him? He’s dead.

Why yes, he assumes the form of a 6 foot rabbit and goes by the name of “Harvey” now. If you feel free to claim the mantle of Jesus Christ I certainly can opine on the views of mere politicians like Goldwater. You falsely equated all conservatism with the social cons, a view that Goldwater very strongly rejected.

And the present GOP is not the same kind of conservative he was. That is why he wanted to kick Falwell’s ass!!!

Of course it’s not, the social cons have been having quite the fun which Goldwater lamented about upon their rise in his day. That run will not last forever however and the GOP will rediscover its roots eventually, vindicating Goldwater’s opposition to the social cons.

Care to share your data on this?

Oh how cute. You cite the Bible like a social con and insinuate, like them, that God is of course on YOUR side. I’m familiar with this game but rarely enjoy playing it. What’s next? Cries of “Deus volt!” to rally the liberal faithful opposing the Forces of Conservative Darkness? Give me a break.

Tommy
June 14th, 2010 | LINK

“You cite the Bible like a social con and insinuate, like them, that God is of course on YOUR side.”

Claiming the bible is socially liberal is mostly true. Claiming the bible is economically liberal is certainty. I don’t think a book has been written that is as strenuously anti-capitalism as the bible. It’s always fun to see conservatives be against socialism, which is pretty clearly what the bible is all about.

Priya Lynn
June 14th, 2010 | LINK

John said ” Being gay doesn’t make one a liberal any more than becoming a Christian makes on a conservative.”.

True, but gays are much more likely to be liberal than not and Christians are much more likely to be conservative than not.

Truthteller said “Where are the praises on the Democrats and all the good work they try to do for the GLBT community?”
John replied “Are you asking Jim & Timothy to act as sycophants for the DNC?”.

How hypocritical – you have no problem with Timothy praising the Republican party, but when Truthteller asks where is the praise for the Democratic party (which has done far more for gays) you disingenously claim that would somehow be sychophantic. If its sychophantic to praise the Democrat party its much more sychophantic to praise the Republican party.

Timothy Kincaid
June 14th, 2010 | LINK

Samuel,

You completely misunderstand and mistate the whole mission of Log Cabin and GOProud. Both organizations have said repeatedly that the gay lifestyle is only a miniscule priority in their lives and that many many other things take precedence…

Unfortunately, this went unchallenged and repeated as though it were true. It is not.

Log Cabin’s stated mission is:

The mission of the Log Cabin Republicans is to work within the Republican Party to advocate equal rights for all Americans, including gays and lesbians. Log Cabin’s mission derives from our firm belief in the principles of limited government, individual liberty, individual responsibility, free markets and a strong national defense. We emphasize that these principles and the moral values on which they stand are consistent with the pursuit of equal treatment under the law for gay and lesbian Americans.

John
June 14th, 2010 | LINK

Tommy: “Claiming the bible is socially liberal is mostly true. Claiming the bible is economically liberal is certainty. I don’t think a book has been written that is as strenuously anti-capitalism as the bible. It’s always fun to see conservatives be against socialism, which is pretty clearly what the bible is all about.

It’s also fun to see liberals claim that the Bible advocates government-mandated socialism. Certainly a crude for of socialism is seen in Acts, which quickly feel apart after the Apostolic Era and long before Constantine, but notice the missing component? Government compulsion. Hey you want to champion volunteer socialism? Be my guest I have no qualms about that.

John
June 14th, 2010 | LINK

Tommy: “Claiming the bible is socially liberal is mostly true. Claiming the bible is economically liberal is certainty. I don’t think a book has been written that is as strenuously anti-capitalism as the bible. It’s always fun to see conservatives be against socialism, which is pretty clearly what the bible is all about.

It’s also fun to see liberals claim that the Bible advocates government-mandated socialism. Certainly a crude for of socialism is seen in Acts, which quickly feel apart after the Apostolic Era and long before Constantine, but notice the missing component? Government compulsion. Hey you want to champion volunteer socialism? Be my guest I have no qualms about that. As for social liberalism, feel free to have fun witht he social cons all you like but this claim of course depends upon what you have in mind now doesn’t it?

rlk
June 14th, 2010 | LINK

It is very simple. Black and white as far as I am concerned. You can be a conservative, say on fiscal matters, military, global warming if you like, education, heathcare and so forth. Nothing wrong with that. We all have are views on these subjects. However, these subjects are irrelevant and nonissues over the premise that republicans and their psuedo-religious zeolots don’t want you to exist as a Gay human being for whatever perverted reasons they have. That IS the most important thing to base your decision to not support any of these republican cowards and anti-Christ religous facists. If Log Cabin republicans want respect then they must challenge and attack these bigots in the tradition of ACT UP. Being polite and asking to be heard is bullshit! Don’t give any them respect as they don’t give you any. When will the Gay Community learn that these bigots and ignorant religious crackpots are not “funny” but major threats to Gay people. Do you want a Uganda here? Because I am sure the republican right-wing will be more than happy to oblige. We need to hit back – fists and all already!! Look how we are allowin DADT to watered down to nothing. What are we doing about it?!

Truthteller
June 14th, 2010 | LINK

@ John

“Of course it’s not, the social cons have been having quite the fun which Goldwater lamented about upon their rise in his day. That run will not last forever however and the GOP will rediscover its roots eventually, vindicating Goldwater’s opposition to the social cons.”

You are delusional!

You cling to your idea of what the GOP conservatism of the past was and project it into the future in order to deny the reality of what IS.

The rest of your post is the same. You deny, twist, mock, ridicule and attack in order to deflect attention away from the fact that you have no facts to rebut what I have said or to buttress your position.

Speaking for others and what they would do and then denying you spoke for them by saying they will correct you if you’re wrong, in order to deny speaking for them is…delusional.

Again, where is your proof? Do you have a links? data? You have posted none.

Best of luck.

John
June 15th, 2010 | LINK

You are delusional! You cling to your idea of what the GOP conservatism of the past was and project it into the future in order to deny the reality of what IS.

And you are a partisan nutjob. I never said that the GOP was supportive of gay rights in the past or the present. Some individual Republicans are, including a sizeable majority of GOP voters favoring repeal of DADT, yet clearly the party machine isn’t. Hence one of the reasons why I am not a Republican. The ideals toward personal liberty which Goldwater came to believe included gays is something the GOP in the future will rediscover and champion or will fade away into political irrelevancy. This isn’t without precedence in American politics and not at all “delusional”. Recall the transformation of the Democrat Party, the party of slavery and segregation, over the past few decades. Amusingly enough both parties have swapped positions as standing for states rights/small government or strong central government.

Btw, I thought you said that you were done posting on this?

Priya Lynn
June 15th, 2010 | LINK

John, you defended BTB praising Republicans and then stated that if they praised the more gay supportive Democrats that that would be sychophantic. Given the positions you’ve taken here your claim not to be a Republican partisan don’t hold any water.

John
June 15th, 2010 | LINK

John, you defended BTB praising Republicans and then stated that if they praised the more gay supportive Democrats that that would be sychophantic. Given the positions you’ve taken here your claim not to be a Republican partisan don’t hold any water.

Nope, not what I said at all. I said that both Jim & Timothy have priased Democrats when they believed it was warranted and criticized them for the same reason. Ditto with the Republicans. Yet that’s not what was demanded as Timothy was taken to task for apparently straying over some arbitrary line by offering even the small praise for some Republicans in this post. Some commentors went nuts accusing BRB of being a “stealth GOP site” which is positively ridiculous. Now as far as me being a “Republican partisan”, I make no secret of favoring the GOP over the DNC on many issues except for gay rights but carry no torch for the party. Hence why I vote for the best person I’m stuck with choosing on the ballot regardless of party affliation and a couple of times when none of the choices are palatable have either skipped the election or wrote in other names. Now if the GOP were ever to jettison the social cons, actually BE the party of small government it claims to be and was less trigger-happy on the international stage than yes, I would indeed join that party. I don’t expect all of this to happen for quite awhile but perhaps someday when I’m very old and gray…

Priya Lynn
June 15th, 2010 | LINK

John said “Nope, not what I said at all.”. Yes John, that is exactly what you said:

Truth teller said “Where are the praises on the Democrats and all the good work they try to do for the GLBT community?” and you replied “Are you asking Jim & Timothy to act as sycophants for the DNC?”

Your subsequent statement that BTB has praised Democrats doesn’t change the fact that you said it would be sychophantic if when Truthteller suggested they do so.

John said “Now as far as me being a “Republican partisan”, I make no secret of favoring the GOP over the DNC on many issues except for gay rights but carry no torch for the party.”.

You contradicted yourself in the same sentence. When you favour the GOP over the DNC you most certainly are carrying a torch for the GOP. If anyone is a partisan nutjob its you.

truthteller
June 15th, 2010 | LINK

@John
This is what you posted:
“Btw, I thought you said that you were done posting on this?”

And this is what I actually said:
“I stand by my previous post and unless you have something of your own to contribute I will no longer waste my time responding to you.”

This is a perfect illustration of the way you distort others posts to support your straw man arguments.

“And you are a partisan nutjob.”
Nice, except my posts have been directed at you and your illogical distortions, not at defending or supporting any party, since I belong to no party, and that would be kinda essential in order to be a partisan.

truthteller
June 15th, 2010 | LINK

@ Priya Lynn

Nicely done!

John
June 15th, 2010 | LINK

Priya: “Your subsequent statement that BTB has praised Democrats doesn’t change the fact that you said it would be sychophantic if when Truthteller suggested they do so.

Yet when my full reply is read in conjunction with truthteller’s full comments only an idiot or a partisan nutjob would come to such a conclusion as this.

You contradicted yourself in the same sentence. When you favour the GOP over the DNC you most certainly are carrying a torch for the GOP. If anyone is a partisan nutjob its you.

Give me break. Are you that desperate to sling mud?

John
June 15th, 2010 | LINK

@ Priya Lynn

Nicely done!

Peas in a pod. Ok, it’s been fun…

Priya Lynn
June 15th, 2010 | LINK

John, your partisan statements speak for themselves. No one’s going to buy your claim that you don’t carry a torch for the GOP – you obviously do.

truthteller
June 15th, 2010 | LINK

John writes on his last post:

“…only an idiot or a partisan nutjob would come to such a conclusion as this.”

and

“Give me break. Are you that desperate to sling mud?”

This is awesome!

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