45 responses

  1. Jim Burroway
    August 25, 2010

    This guy, a former Green Beret, I think, offered to be my bouncer.

    I’m terribly sorry, but I didn’t read the rest of the post. Did he say something important?

  2. Lindoro Almaviva
    August 25, 2010

    I think he says something very important here: “it is about deeds, not words.” So let’s put that to the test, shall we?

    This is a man who says he has no’ problems with gays who, in a moment of indignation, appealed to the perceived homophobia in both the Muslim and Christian world in order to offend people. This man, who says he has no issues with gays didn’t have a problem in using gay people as a tool and as a wedge. This self professed “socially enlightened” man publicly humiliated the gay community with proposing that a good way to keep Muslims from rightfully building their proect in private land was yo have the gays close by because we are the human equivalent of pigs for both Muslim and Jews.

    Just as he said, we should just judge him by his actions…

  3. Emily K
    August 25, 2010

    Today, I listened hard to hear the homophobia, but it appears that GLAAD’s ear may be better fine-tuned than mine.

    Isn’t this the group that protested South Park’s use of the word “faggot,” when most queers either found it amusing or were willing to let it roll of their backs?

    Isn’t this the group that forced Gene Shallot to apologize for treating “Brokeback Mountain” like any other “straight” movie and giving his honest impression of it (which they happened to disagree with and not appreciate)?

    GLAAD becomes more and more obsolete with each passing year.

  4. L. Junius Brutus
    August 25, 2010

    Wow, another post about something related to the Ground Zero Mosque, and yet another vitriol-filled response from Lindoro. In other news, the sun did not fail to come up in the morning today.

    Lindoro: “This is a man who says he has no’ problems with gays who, in a moment of indignation, appealed to the perceived homophobia in both the Muslim and Christian world in order to offend people.”

    Perceived homophobia in the Muslim world? You’ve. Got. To. Be. Kidding. Me. Just today, it was reported that a Palestinian Arab was kidnapped by his Muslim family and held hostage for nearly a day. After that, he fled to Israel – that unfree, rogue, terrorist, worst state ever state of Israel.

    “This self professed “socially enlightened” man publicly humiliated the gay community ”

    I don’t feel humiliated. I was glad that he pointed out that despite the Muslims’ wishes for tolerance, oftentimes, adherents to the Muslim religion are far from tolerant, toward just about everyone. You feel humiliated? Methinks thou art oversensitive.

    “because we are the human equivalent of pigs for both Muslim and Jews.”

    Hmm… if the Muslims and Jews regard as the human equivalent of pigs, then is that Greg Gutfeld’s fault?

    Emily K.: “GLAAD becomes more and more obsolete with each passing year.”

    I agree. Let it focus on combating actual defamation. There’s more of that on this blog than in the entire organizational history of GLAAD.

  5. Emily K
    August 25, 2010

    This is a man who says he has no’ problems with gays who, in a moment of indignation, appealed to the perceived homophobia in both the Muslim and Christian world in order to offend people.

    I couldn’t have put it better, Lindoro. It was an obvious ploy, not unlike the subtle barbs Rush Limbaugh makes to appease his frothy-mouthed anti-gay audience while silently winking tolerance to his “gay friends.”

  6. Lindoro Almaviva
    August 25, 2010

    well, Brutus, if you do not have a problem with being used as the boogie monster for the Muslims, then you do not have room to protest when Focus in the Family, NOM or any other anti-gay group uses the same tactic to ensure that your rights are kept in 1950′s level.

  7. Désirée
    August 25, 2010

    I’m not sure if he is as tolerant of gays as he wants us to think or if he just was trying to offend muslims. I suspect the latter. His marriage stance is basically standard Libertarian in nature (although he equivocates and unnecessarily concedes the word “marriage” to the religious folk) so it isn’t that far afield of mainstream non-religious-right conservatives.

    I find Lindoro’s arguments rather amusing. It’s question begging – *why* would a gay muslim bar offend muslims anyway (or be perceived as offending muslims) if muslims are so tolerant? The proper muslim response should be “yeah whatever.” But since we know that not to be the case, Lindoro’s protests ring hollow.

  8. Duncan
    August 26, 2010

    Brutus, you’re doing the perennial mistake of assuming Islam is a monolithic faith. Muslims in America are probably not more homophobic than Evangelicals.
    For the idea of a “gay bar for Muslims”, I think the best criticism that can be made is on commercial grounds: are there enough gay Muslims in the area to sustain it?
    On the matter of Gutfeld’s stance on marriage, Désirée is correct that he is Libertarian. That the Republican mainstream doesn’t accept it just shows how intellectually broke it is. (He is not “equivocating” – a good case can be made to remove “marriage” from law and leave it to private concerns, religious or not).
    And finally, it “raises the question”, not “begs the question”, which is an archaic term for what is better called “assuming the conclusion”. (But just to add to the confusion, “beggars the question” is synonimous with “raising”…)

  9. Désirée
    August 26, 2010

    He is equivocating as there is no reason to remove the word “marriage” from the public sphere and turn it over to religious groups. Civil marriage exists and no amount of Libertarian wishing it so will change this (and this is coming from a hard Libertarian).

    As for “begging the question” I did use it correctly, that is, I used to say that Lindoro premise assumes that a gay muslim bar is in fact offensive, which is precisely what he is arguing against. Begging the question is hardly “archaic” to anyone who studies logic or philosophy and “raises the question” is in fact an incorrect use of “begging the question” They are not synonymous.

  10. L. Junius Brutus
    August 26, 2010

    Lindoro: “well, Brutus, if you do not have a problem with being used as the boogie monster for the Muslims, then you do not have room to protest when Focus in the Family, NOM or any other anti-gay group uses the same tactic to ensure that your rights are kept in 1950’s level.”

    Wow, your logic is as deficient as it ever was (then again, as you said, your high-minded philosophy is too much for a simpleton like myself). Since when is pointing out the intolerance of one particular group, one group that is very vocal in demanding tolerance form others, equivalent to exploiting anti-gay bigotry to push anti-gay initiatives?

    Duncan: “Brutus, you’re doing the perennial mistake of assuming Islam is a monolithic faith.”

    Strawman. I think you don’t know what you’re talking about, since nothing in what I posted even implies that Islam is a “monolithic faith”. Of course, this is a standard line of attack against critics of Islam, so I guess you opted to use it regardless of whether it was applicable in this instance or not.

    “Muslims in America are probably not more homophobic than Evangelicals.”

    Are you seriously comparing ALL Muslims to the radical fringe of Christianity? It’s ironic that you should do that, because other religious minorities, like Jews or Hindus, are not only less homophobic than evangelicals, they are much less homophobic than the nation at large. But there seems to be something uniquely intolerant about Islam. I think the fact that you compare all Muslims with Christian fundamentalists would prove Gutfeld’s point (and that of other critics of Islam), that Muslims are generally fundamentalists. How funny that politically correct people think that criticism of evangelical Christianity is perfectly fine, but criticism of Islam is “racism” (even though Islam s not a race).

    Moreover, the intolerance that I talked about is not just homophobia. It is true that the Islamic world is uniquely homophobic, something that I did point out. But my point was broader. It is also uniquely intolerant of other religions, free speech, freedom of religion, sexuality in general, and a host of other things. So yeah, it’s about time that tolerance was demanded OF Muslims.

  11. Chris McCoy
    August 26, 2010

    Brutus said:

    But my point was broader. It is also uniquely intolerant of other religions, free speech, freedom of religion, sexuality in general, and a host of other things. So yeah, it’s about time that tolerance was demanded OF Muslims.

    I agree that much of Islam is intolerant. But then, so is much of Christianity, Sikhism, and Hinduism, just to name a few. Islam does not hold a monopoly on intolerance in any of the areas you mention.

    However, to suggest that because Muslims are intolerant, showing intolerance towards Muslims is acceptable, is a typical example of the Tu Quoque fallacy.

    The compassionate response is to show tolerance to the intolerant.

  12. Priya Lynn
    August 26, 2010

    Duncan said “Muslims in America are probably not more homophobic than Evangelicals.”.

    Evangelicals are pretty homophobic.

  13. Timothy Kincaid
    August 26, 2010

    Chris

    The compassionate response is to show tolerance to the intolerant.

    This one made me chuckle. It is Maggie Gallager and NOM’s current favorite tactic to claim that it is us who are intolerant because we do not tolerate their efforts to deny us our rights.

    As I’ve said before, being tolerant does not require one to tolerate intolerance.

    I choose to try and treat all anti-gay religious efforts the same, whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or Animist. No one gets a pass because they are a minority religion.

  14. Lindoro Almaviva
    August 26, 2010

    The only thing I am going to point out is that Islam, as it has been said before, is no different in their homophobia than Christianity. Therefore, there will be Muslims that will not think it twice about wanting to kill a gay man (the same with Christians) just as some will see these reactions and just say Meh…

    So once again, I find it funny how Islam is being seen as this all evil force when Christians are doing just as bad, but somehow they are escaping the same kind of judgment (at least when compared to Islam)

    Since when is pointing out the intolerance of one particular group, one group that is very vocal in demanding tolerance form others, equivalent to exploiting anti-gay bigotry to push anti-gay initiatives?

    There is nothing wrong with pointing them out, but what is wrong is to imply that this is the only thing you will find in that group, thus demonizing them and not finding any redeeming quality in them.

    NOM, Focus in the Family and Fred Phelps (just to name a few) are doing the same thing, and if any of those groups were to open offices near ground Zero nobody would protest.

  15. Timothy Kincaid
    August 26, 2010

    Lindoro,

    Seriously? You think Christians are escaping judgment on this site?

    WOW!!

    And when have we ever, ever, missed an opportunity to criticize NOM, Focus on the Family, or Fred Phelps for their choices or behavior.

  16. Emily K
    August 26, 2010

    Does anybody here even know a Muslim person personally? Does anyone come into contact with one regularly at school, work, etc? Does this person know that you are gay?

    Just curious.

  17. L. Junius Brutus
    August 26, 2010

    Chris McCoy: “I agree that much of Islam is intolerant. But then, so is much of Christianity, Sikhism, and Hinduism, just to name a few. Islam does not hold a monopoly on intolerance in any of the areas you mention.”

    I did not say that Islam holds a monopoly on intolerance, I said that Islam is uniquely intolerant in all those areas I mentioned, in both its bredth and intensity. While Christianity may be intolerant of homosexuality, very few Christian-majority countries criminalize homosexuality, wheras nearly all Muslim-majority states do that, and all the states that impose the death penalty for homosexuality are Islamic states. This same pattern holds true for the other areas: nearly all, if not all, Christian-majority countries give religious minorities equal rights, whereas nearly no Muslim-majority countries do (no, not even Turkey). As I said, uniquely intolerant in both bredth and intensity.

    “However, to suggest that because Muslims are intolerant, showing intolerance towards Muslims is acceptable, is a typical example of the Tu Quoque fallacy.”

    I think his point is that Muslims have absolutely no moral right to demand tolerance, as long as they themselves are so intolerant. Moreover, it depends on how you define “intolerance”. Pointing out the harsh reality about Islam is in no way ‘intolerant’, regardless of whether you like those facts or not.

    Lindoro: “The only thing I am going to point out is that Islam, as it has been said before, is no different in their homophobia than Christianity.”

    Really? I’m pretty sure that gay people are better off in Christian countries than in Islamic countries. Of course, that is a “coincidence” which has to do with everything from astrology to the price of tea in China, but not with the religions of the majority of the people in those countries.

    “There is nothing wrong with pointing them out, but what is wrong is to imply that this is the only thing you will find in that group, thus demonizing them and not finding any redeeming quality in them. ”

    You contradict yourself. About 18 hours before you said this, you were saying that Gutfeld’s proposal was “humiliating” for gays. Now, it’s all of a sudden demonizing Muslims? You still haven’t described exactly how this is supposed to humiliate me.

    “NOM, Focus in the Family and Fred Phelps (just to name a few) are doing the same thing, and if any of those groups were to open offices near ground Zero nobody would protest.”

    I’m sure that if the hijackers were people who carried out their attacks to protest gay marriage in America, everyone would protest NOM opening offices two blocks from Ground Zero, even the politically correct – especially the politically correct. And they would definitely be protesting if the person leading the charge for the project called Massachusetts policies an accomplice to the attack, refused to describe bombers of gay bars as terrorists, and wanted to impose a Christian theocracy on America.

  18. Timothy Kincaid
    August 26, 2010

    Brutus,

    “…very few Christian-majority countries criminalize homosexuality…”

    You are mistaken; you are thinking only of European Countries. Criminalization is pretty common in African Christian-majority countries.

    However, if one were to present a hierarchy of support to viciousness and tie it in some way to religion, it would be something like:

    Non-churched nations
    Lutheran nations
    Catholic nations
    Other Christian nations
    Jewish nations
    Modern Asian nations*
    Orthodox Christian nations
    Asian Christian nations
    Caribbean Christian nations
    Other Asian nations*
    African Christian Nations
    Asian Muslim nations
    African Muslim nations
    Arabic Muslim nations

    I’m sure there are exceptions and I may have a few out of order, but this seems to me to be mostly right.

    * neither Christian nor Muslim

  19. Donnchadh
    August 26, 2010

    Désirée, I apologise for saying you were using “begging the question” wrong. But “raising the question” is a distinct phrase that has nothing to do with it.
    I said the expression is archaic, because it is a transliteration from Latin that is not at all transparent today (and very often used wrong – just google it). Language Log explains here why “Assuming the conclusion” is a better phrase:
    http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2290
    (Yes, I’m talking about lingual points because I’m more comfortable with them than with the acerbic discussion going on around.)
    Brutus: I consider myself politically correct, and I would not protest it.

  20. L. Junius Brutus
    August 26, 2010

    Timothy: “You are mistaken; you are thinking only of European Countries. Criminalization is pretty common in African Christian-majority countries.”

    But it’s not just Europe, it’s the Americas (with a few exceptions), it’s Australia. Everything but Africa (unfortunately). True, “very few” was an understatement. “Few” would probably have been more accurate, because even if we count the African countries, these represent a rather small minority of Christian countries. On the other hand, I think of the 57 members of the OIC, I think that there aren’t even 5 that do not criminalize homosexuality (and OIC-member Suriname doesn’t even have a Muslim majority).

    The African Church seems to be the aberration – in more ways than one. Most African Christians seem to endorse polygamy, something that would have shocked Augustine – another African Christian. Also, witch-hunts and animism run rampant. Children are usually the victims. See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8441813.stm (also includes a marvelous quote from our anti-gay friend James Buturo, Ugandan minister for Ethics and Integrity).

    “However, if one were to present a hierarchy of support to viciousness and tie it in some way to religion, it would be something like:”

    That does seem to be about right.

    Donnchadh: “Brutus: I consider myself politically correct, and I would not protest it.”

    Not protest it, or think that the location is very appropriate? Moreover, would supporters of said project be calling opponents ignoramuses, bigots and racists? I don’t think so.

  21. TJMcFisty
    August 26, 2010

    @Emily: I did work with two Muslims guys (contractors) quite some time ago. Both know I’m gay and had said that they didn’t care–my business/my life, something like that.

    After they stopped working for my agency, I continued to get calls from them to do some side projects so I’m thinking gayness really wasn’t an issue for them. Or, at least, nothing they couldn’t get past in order to have a good working relationship.

    Old employer of mine is an orthodox Jew–she had no issues with my orientation either. Never mentioned, but I don’t think she really cared at all.

    Haven’t done any work with or for any hardline Christians, however, so I have no comparison.

  22. Chris McCoy
    August 26, 2010

    Brutus said:

    I think his point is that Muslims have absolutely no moral right to demand tolerance, as long as they themselves are so intolerant.

    Which is still Tu Quoque.

    This argument can be restated as “I will not show you an ounce of respect you untill you start showing me some respect.” That’s just a stalemate.

    Moreover, it depends on how you define “intolerance”. Pointing out the harsh reality about Islam is in no way ‘intolerant’, regardless of whether you like those facts or not.

    I define tolerance as accepting that people have views that differ from mine.
    I define intolerance as demanding that people accept that only my view point is correct or valid.

    I agree that Islam is subject to criticism, but it is possible to criticize without stooping to the level of intolerance.

  23. Timothy Kincaid
    August 26, 2010

    I agree that Islam is subject to criticism, but it is possible to criticize without stooping to the level of intolerance.

    I agree. I think this is something that those on both sides of contentious issues sometimes forget.

    In choosing to criticize, we should be careful that we are critical of specific wrongs and not of whole classes of people.

    And when viewing criticism, we should recognize that criticism is not an indication of intolerance or bigotry.

  24. Emily K
    August 26, 2010

    TJ,

    Thanks for sharing that perspective.

    Muslims I knew in art school (5-6 years ago) didn’t care I was gay, and also were not staunchly anti-Israel. My pen-pal in Abu Dhabi, a married-with-kids businessman I met on a train in Italy, found out I was gay after knowing me for a while, and insisted “I love you the same as your family loves you, no matter what.” And not once has he said “i love you but hate your sin.” In fact he has expressed worry for me because of misconceptions he has about gay people – that we end up prostitutes or sexually promiscuous, and in dangerous situations as a result. He wants me to be successful and healthy. (vice versa, of course.) He says it is not tradition where he is from for Muslims to put homosexuals to death and to not believe this misconception. So I’ve had the opportunity to explain that me being gay is just me loving other women, that I am open to being married one day, and that I am not dating anybody right now because I’m focused on other things.

  25. Lindoro Almaviva
    August 26, 2010

    You are taking it personally. While this blog is very good at pointing out the hypocrisy on both faiths, you only need to look out of your box to realize that Islam is being criticized for the same intolerance that Christians exhibit; yet the Christians are not being called to the carpet, nor their buildings are being blocked with every innuendo that can be brought up masked as “concern” or “appropriateness” or “[name your own]“.

    It has been pretty obvious that there are people including gay people who are just too willing to use against muslims the same language that is used against us, and even excuse the behavior. And what i find hypocritical about it is that if such behavior/language was directed towards them, would be subject to criticism.

  26. Lindoro Almaviva
    August 26, 2010

    lemme add the quote i intended to respond to, that for some reason didn’t attach:

    And when have we ever, ever, missed an opportunity to criticize NOM, Focus on the Family, or Fred Phelps for their choices or behavior.

  27. Erin
    August 26, 2010

    I have a couple Muslim friends- one who was born in Turkey, and moved here when he was ten. I also met a guy from Egypt a couple summers ago. He came here to work at the Jersey shore during the summer, and went to college in Egypt. He now lives in Canada. Never once have either of these guys said a negative thing about my sexuality, and both of them were well aware of it. They both observe Ramadan, and the Egyptian intends to remain a virgin until he marries because of his faith, so I know they are practicing Muslims. The sad thing is, so many Americans have an image of a turban-wearing terrorist with a gun when they think of Muslims. My Turkish friend has younger sisters I have met. Noone requires them to wear a burka or anything like that, so from my own experience, I can see that there are different sects of Islam, and varying degrees of strictness in adhering to the faith. I find the very suggestion that a Muslim Community Center in lower Manhattan could be considered insensitive or inappropriate to be ridiculous. People like my 2 guy friends could be benefitting from this building, people who don’t intend violence against anyone. It is useless to sit here and bicker about which faith is more intolerant of gays and other faiths. The fact is, it is true for both faiths, that there are decent, caring, tolerant, peaceful people who shouldn’t be punished, mistreated, or deprived of their Constitutional rights because of the poor behavior of others in their faith.

  28. TampaZeke
    August 26, 2010

    Yes Emily K, I DO have close, personal Muslim friends that I see on a regular basis. Once more, and YOU’LL love this, one of them was tried on, and acquitted of, terrorism charges. I am friends with Sami al Arian and his family and YES they know I’m gay and they are VERY supportive. Sami is STILL, almost EIGHT years later, under house arrest outside of Washington DC even though he was acquitted. Even still some of his family, who are still Florida residents, flew back to Tampa in 2008 for one reason and one reason only. To vote AGAINST the anti-gay marriage Amendment 2. Again, they flew back to Florida just to vote against Amendment 2. Additionally, a local Mosque/Islamic Center (probably like the one planned for New York) publicly condemned Amendment 2 and encouraged the Muslim community to vote against it because it was discriminatory.

    This factual information will probably make your head explode since it doesn’t fit your preconceived notions that all Muslims are of one mind and that mind is anti-gay.

    I’m here to tell you that that is not the case.

  29. TampaZeke
    August 26, 2010

    Sorry Emily K, misread your response.

    My sincerest apologies.

    Too bad you can’t put bullets back in a gun. I admit that I have a raw and exposed nerve and am quick on the trigger in these discussion because I have friends that are really being hurt by all of the hateful rhetoric that’s flying around.

    Muslims and gays have a LOT in common in this country. We should have each other’s backs.

    Sorry again.

  30. Emily K
    August 27, 2010

    TampaZeke, apology acce3pted, though I admit I”m extremely puzzled as to what I said could’ve led you down the path to post the first comment. I’ve been one of the few people on this site defending Muslims. Probably the one whose head will explode is Brutus.

    It seems that people here are guilty of the same things anti-gay people are, namely that none of them know any Muslims personally and so they are much more willing to believe media reports that paint them with one broad stroke.

    Just like anti-gay people believe that all gays are against religion (Christianity especially), promiscuous and sex-obsessed, constantly flaunting sex and wearing rainbows all the time, because they see images of Pride and assume we all attend Pride and all attend Pride in the same manner. A false dichotomy is painted, gays vs. religion, or gays vs. conservatives, as if there are no gay Christians or gay conservatives.

    It’s much easier to think of Muslims as an “OTHER” when you don’t know any personally.

  31. Priya Lynn
    August 27, 2010

    Brutus said “I think his point is that Muslims have absolutely no moral right to demand tolerance, as long as they themselves are so intolerant.”

    Chris replied “Which is still Tu Quoque.
    This argument can be restated as “I will not show you an ounce of respect you untill you start showing me some respect.” That’s just a stalemate.”.

    Which would just be a stalement then, not a logical fallacy. Would you say its a logical fallacy if a murderer said to me “you must tolerate my murderous actions” and I said “Your actions are intolerant and don’t deserve to be tolerated.”?

  32. Emily K
    August 27, 2010

    So, Priya, Muslims are now all murderers. Hmm. Interesting strawman.

    Kind of like how Christians can love all sinners – including homosexuals and murderers. Because they are one in the same, you see.

  33. Timothy Kincaid
    August 27, 2010

    Emily,

    Why would you think that “none of them know any Muslims personally” when “people here” seem to be telling you the opposite?

  34. L. Junius Brutus
    August 27, 2010

    TampaZeke: “Muslims and gays have a LOT in common in this country. We should have each other’s backs.”

    In this country (presumably the country where Tampa is located)? Ask Bruce Brawer whether the Muslims in Europe have his back. Or ask New Zealand’s only Muslim MP, who expressed support for stoning gays to death, curiously after voting for a “civil union”-law.

    Emily K.: “I’ve been one of the few people on this site defending Muslims. ”

    And how you have… you even claimed that without Islam, Europe would still be a squalid, backward place.

    “It seems that people here are guilty of the same things anti-gay people are, namely that none of them know any Muslims personally”

    It seems that you are guilty of the same thing people who hate all Muslims are, namely that you generalize. The fact that we hear of Muslims who support terrorism, does not mean that all, or most, Muslims support terrorism. Similarly, the fact that you know a few Muslims who are not homophobic, does not mean that all, or most, Muslims are not homophobic. But unfortunately, resistance to generalization runs only one way with the politically correct.

    “and so they are much more willing to believe media reports that paint them with one broad stroke.”

    Show me the “media reports that paint them with one broad stroke”. Or admit that this was a nonsensical statement. You like to paint people as bigoted and ignorant, even “racist” – even though most critics of Islam probably know more about the religion than you do, and the fact that our opinion of Islam is based on facts and not wishful thinking.

  35. Emily K
    August 27, 2010

    Timothy, I don’t think “none” know Muslims. Just the ones making uninformed statements about them.

    I suspected that those who did know Muslims personally would not be nearly as bigotted or uninformed. Hence the reason I asked “who knows someone who is Muslim.”

    I was correct, those who know them are indeed much better informed and do not paint with broad strokes. TampaZeke in particularly became irate when he thought *I* was doing so. He happened to post some wonderful examples, too.

  36. Emily K
    August 27, 2010

    Calm down, Brutus. Find yourself a nice Roman 16 year old boy to “mentor.”

  37. L. Junius Brutus
    August 27, 2010

    Emily K: “Calm down, Brutus. Find yourself a nice Roman 16 year old boy to “mentor.””

    I think you should calm down, because your anger and hatred is consuming your already limited mind. If my character were as debased as yours, I’d be telling you to get a 9-year old “wife”, because the prophet of the Islam that you so admire did it.

    I’m using logic and arguments – something apparently foreign to you. Quite clearly, you have absolutely no response. Your surrender is accepted.

    Same thing happened in the discussion about the Ground Zero mosque, when you called opponents every name in the book, simply because they disagreed with you on the location of a mosque – ignorant, bigot, racist. Of course, to the arguments you had no response, just like you don’t right now. Quite common with people who have no substance whatsoever.

    This is a new low, even by your very anemic standards. What a sad creature you are. I almost pity you.

  38. Timothy Kincaid
    August 27, 2010

    Emily,

    I suspected that those who did know Muslims personally would not be nearly as bigotted or uninformed. Hence the reason I asked “who knows someone who is Muslim.”

    I was correct, those who know them are indeed much better informed and do not paint with broad strokes.

    You have accused me of being a racist and a bigot. Yet I know several Muslims. Your assumptions and broad generalizations – once again – are false.

    You are a bright young lady, but you have one major flaw. You have a bad habit of assuming that all people of good will must agree with you and that anyone who has a position other than that which you hold must be motivated by animus.

    This blinds you and makes some of the things that you say seem irrational. It tarnishes your credibility.

    Remember the time that you informed me that I was a pale skinned, pale haired, blue-eyed Aryan? Well I thought of you this weekend when someone I was talking to (who happened to be black) said, “Wait… you’re white?”

    I’m not saying that you have to abandon your views. But before you leap to assumptions about others and their experiences or their biases, consider that so far many of your assumptions have turned out to be false.

    You’d do much better to offer your ideas than to attack the imagined motivations behind others’ ideas.

  39. Emily K
    August 27, 2010

    Timothy, since your background is completely Anglo-Saxon (UK; Germany) save for a few outliers here and there, you assumed the Park 51 building “was probably purposefully offensive” without stopping to explain it until Jim pressed you on the issue, and did not comment that you knew any Muslim people until NOW, I stand by the things I’ve said, right or “wrong.”

    But you’re right, people like Molotov know gays and are still hateful. Many anti-gay activists, especially in the ex-gay circle, have gay children. They still work against their own loved ones. So it would be fitting that someone who does “know several Muslims” would also be defensive about their “concerned opposition” to Park 51.

    And I really do not care at all what hue your skin is or how much “credibility” you might think you get from having someone mistake you for a person of color.

    Brutus, unlike you, I am not glorifying anyone’s culture. (Emily is my real name.) I’m calling for tolerance, education, and understanding.

    And since I’m not hearing a *denial*, but rather a stance of “well, i might be bad but THOSE HORRIBLE GUYS ARE WORSE”, I’ll assume that you’re as okay with pederasty as the rest of the Roman society you so revere. Lovely.

  40. Emily K
    August 27, 2010

    And Timothy, it was my original question that prompted people to mention whether or not they personally knew someone who is Muslim:

    Does anybody here even know a Muslim person personally? Does anyone come into contact with one regularly at school, work, etc? Does this person know that you are gay?

    Just curious.

    And you know full well that people who know someone who is gay – a neighbor, relative, friend, co-worker – is more likely to support equality. I was using this as an analogy, hence the reason I posed my question.

    Unless you are saying that this doesn’t matter at all, and the closet is NOT the enemy, so who cares if people stop coming out of it.

  41. Timothy Kincaid
    August 27, 2010

    Emily,

    Okay, it was only advice. If you are compelled to believe whatever stereotypes fit your presumptions, I can’t stop you. If you choose to hurl slurs and accusations rather than address logic, well that is how your argument will be judged.

  42. L. Junius Brutus
    August 27, 2010

    Emily K: “Brutus, unlike you, I am not glorifying anyone’s culture. ”

    You claimed that Islam is responsible for Western civilization, that Europe would be a squalid desert without Islam. On the other hand, you bash Christianity and Greek and Roman culture – the three pillars on which Western civilization is based.

    “I’m calling for tolerance, education, and understanding.”

    You are? Then start with yourself. How about becoming more tolerant, educated and understanding. Instead of being tolerant, you call anyone who disagrees with you ignorant, racist or bigoted. Maggie Gallagher is probably more tolerant and understanding than you are.

    “And since I’m not hearing a *denial*, but rather a stance of “well, i might be bad but THOSE HORRIBLE GUYS ARE WORSE”, I’ll assume that you’re as okay with pederasty as the rest of the Roman society you so revere.”

    I’ve explained this before, but let me just say that it’s a testimony to your ignorance you are that the only thing you (think you) know about Roman culture is “pederasty”. That is was a Greek thing, and really rare in Roman is apparently unknown to you. How “tolerant, educated and understanding” you are.

    But for an explanation, maybe you should go back and read the discussion that ensued in the Ground Zero mosque thread, because I’ve already responded to your attack. You know, the one where you started off calling everyone racists, bigots and ignoramuses, and then suddenly disappeared when you needed to come up with actual arguments, instead of insults (your specialty)?

    I will further note that you still haven’t thought of a response to my post regarding Muslims. I hope that your tolerant, educated and understanding self will be able to come up with a response before 2011.

  43. Emily K
    August 27, 2010

    Timothy, a passive aggressive dismissal does not equal “addressing logic.”

    I don’t know why you create these separate categories in your brain when it comes to what is an insult, what is logic, who is doing things for “probably offensive” reasons, and which religions have the greatest potential to be allied with the gay community (or America.)

    It is much easier to dismiss a cogent statement of facts with cries of “insult,” “slur,” and “accusations” than to participate in discussion, I’ll give you that.

  44. Emily K
    August 27, 2010

    Nah, Brutus, I just got tired of dealing with you so I’ve decided to ignore you. I honestly don’t have anything to prove to you; you’re a tiresome person in many ways, and I don’t at all envy you having to live with yourself. Really you’ll go on ranting and raving about imaginary Muslim enemies surrounding you, threatening your civil rights and freedoms, until the cows come home. You’re already convinced of the “truth,” nothing I’ll say would convince you otherwise and my life is just fine without doing that. Besides, it’s not my job to hold your hand and be your internet tutor. If you want to learn about Muslims, European history, or anything else, you know how to use a library. Or a search engine.

  45. L. Junius Brutus
    August 27, 2010

    Emily K: “It is much easier to dismiss a cogent statement of facts with cries of “insult,” “slur,” and “accusations” than to participate in discussion, I’ll give you that.”

    Yeah. Cogent statements of facts from you like: “bigot”, “racist”, “ignoramus” – which you very tolerantly and understandingly call 82.5% of the American population, because they disagree with you.

    “I just got tired of dealing with you ”

    You mean you got tired of getting your non-logic refuted? Moreover, how very tolerant of you.

    “so I’ve decided to ignore you. ”

    You have? You’re saying this to me with your back turned to me?

    “and I don’t at all envy you having to live with yourself. ”

    You really should. Kicking ass is much more fun than getting your ass kicked.

    “If you want to learn about Muslims, European history, or anything else, you know how to use a library. Or a search engine.”

    LOL! I have forgotten more about history than you know in toto. Methinks the “tolerant, educated and understanding” lady should go out and read a book. Maybe then she would realize that Islam did not build Western civilization. Or that ‘pederasty’ has very little to do with Roman culture. Or that your name comes from a Latin word (Latin being of course the language of the evil Roman Empire). Or that disagreeing with one “Emily K” does not make one a racist, bigot or ignoramus – of course, the alternative to insulting people is staying silent for you, since you have very little in reason or logic.

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