Box Turtle Bulletin

Box Turtle BulletinNews, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric
“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
This article can be found at:
Latest Posts

Catholics and Evangelical Hispanics: better no immigration reform than allow gay couples to stay together

Timothy Kincaid

September 14th, 2010

Because the US Government does not recognize same sex couples, there are many indignities suffered. Taxes are higher, there’s a special “gay tax” on health insurance, and there are over 1,000 laws that effect same-sex couples differently than opposite-sex couples. But the cruelest by far is when the federal government breaks up of long-term, committed, married same-sex couples and kicks one of the spouses out of the country.

Yet some of those who are advocating for immigration reform support this position. They so strongly wish to forcibly separate same-sex couples that they would rather give up one of their most important agenda items than allow for multi-national gay couples to be treated like heterosexuals. (WaPo)

“It introduces a new controversial element to the issue which will divide the faith community and further jeopardize chances for a fair and bipartisan compromise,” said Kevin Appleby of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, which last year said the inclusion of gay couples in a House bill aimed at reuniting families made it “impossible” for the group to support the measure. “Immigration is hard enough without adding same-sex marriage to the mix.”

The National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, a 16-million-strong group of evangelical Latinos that could play a key political role in an immigration overhaul, is similarly opposed to including provisions for gay and lesbian families. The president of the organization, the Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, said that including such a measure would prove to be the “death knell” for comprehensive change.

I have difficulty fathoming a moral code that includes deliberate and blatant cruelty. Surely these Catholics and Hispanic evangelicals are just so caught up in “fighting the homosexual agenda” that they have never asked themselves how they really want specific same-sex couples to be treated. Surely they do not actually wish for John Beddingfield and Erwin de Leon, a couple discussed in the article, to be forced to live apart.

Some day they will look back and be ashamed.

But in the meantime, there is a possibility for hope. The Obama Administration has not yet filed an appeal to Gill v. Office of Personnel Management or Massachusetts v. United States Department of Health and Human Services, the joint cases that found certain provisions of the Defense of Marriage Act to be in violation of the US Constitution. The filing deadline is October 11, and neither the Justice Department nor the White House have stated whether an appeal would be filed.

Should the Administration opt not to appeal, then married same-sex couples in at least the State of Massachusetts would have the ability to apply for citizenship consideration in the same manner as opposite sex couples. It would be – for many – a great hardship to relocate to Massachusetts, but for some desperate couples it could be a temporary solution.

Comments

POST COMMENT | COMMENT RSS 2.0

Lindoro Almaviva
September 14th, 2010 | LINK


Some day they will look back and be ashamed.

It will take them probably the same amount of time it took them to admit that Copernicus was right, that Galileo was right, that Martin Luther had some very good points, that what was done to the indigenous people in the Americas was cruel, that the Inquisition was a shameful act, that the Holocaust was not brought up by the Jews killing Jesus, that having the mass in the vernacular is a good idea, and that there are priests out there who were abusing children and the church made the situation worse by moving those pedophiles from parish to parish.

Mark my words…

Half a Citizen
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

It would be nice not to have to find someone of the opposite sex to marry so that you can be with the actual person you love. It really is horrible to be forced into the choice of either moving away from the States, or comitting visa fraud. (If we could have married each other in the first place, it wouldn’t have been fraud! But for lack of a penis, we had to break the law. Way to go, USA.)

I am just thankful we knew someone trustworthy and willing to take that step with us. Others are not so lucky.

Timothy Kincaid
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

Half,

The irony is that your totally bogus marriage is considered a “real marriage” while the one that is meaningful, committed and true is the one that they call “artificial”.

Keppler
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

Fine. Let’s give them what they want. Let’s work to scuttle immigration reform.

Mark F.
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

Reality check: there is going to be no comprehensive immigration reform in this Congress or the next regardless of whether or not there are pro-gay provisions in it.

TampaZeke
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

According to Joe My God, they’re taking back their apology to Galileo.

http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2010/09/galileo-was-wrong.html

Richard Rush
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

Some words deserve to be repeated:

Timothy said to Half a Citizen,

The irony is that your totally bogus marriage is considered a “real marriage” while the one that is meaningful, committed and true is the one that they call “artificial”.

To carry that thought a step further, it could apply to the many homosexuals throughout history (including recently) who felt compelled to marry an opposite-sex person in order to be socially acceptable. And it certainly almost always involved deception of an unsuspecting person (or one in denial). My partner and I personally know plenty of these people – mostly those who left their dysfunctional marriages, plus some still in them.

And our pathetic opponents still promote these “marriages” as the correct path to a better society.

DN
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

Hey Timothy, a slight correction to your answer to Half… A couple found to have obtained a green card as a result of a sham marriage faces a fine of up to $250,000 and 5 years in prison.

http://www.lawyers.com/ask_a_lawyer/q_and_a_archive/view_archive/index.php?QID=08-SEP-03&site=537

I was lucky and have a job that is so specialized that only a few dozen Americans do it, and was able to get an employment-based green card. But I shouldn’t have to. The guy down the hall at work is from the same country, same city for Pete’s sake, as me, and he didn’t have to suffer the anguish and waiting that I did.

DN
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

grrr…. *shouldn’t have had to…

RWG
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

“I have difficulty fathoming a moral code that includes deliberate and blatant cruelty.”

Why so? They actually want to put us into concentration camps prior to elimination by firing squad or death by starvation. Why is it so difficult to believe they oppose treating us like actual human beings, much less citizens deserving of equal rights?

I should also point out, that the issue is not new, as Mr. Appleby pretends. A bill to correct this discriminatory policy has been introduced in every Congress since 1999.

These so-called Christians have no moral code. They are not moral people.

The Obama administration will appeal the Gil decision, you can bet your house on it.

MJC
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

Nauseating.

“Do unto others….’

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Paul J Stwin
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

Plenty of marriages are not intimate marriages . I have no problem with a Gay or Lesbian mixed marriage. Get the most benefits you can and keep em coming. There is no rule/law that requires you have have sexual relations to legitimize a marriage. That would be an invasion of privacy and difficult to prove.

Patrick
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

“Surely they do not actually wish for John Beddingfield and Erwin de Leon, a couple discussed in the article, to be forced to live apart.”

I don’t think you understand many evangelicals very well. Yes, many would love to force gay lovers to live apart because then they would no longer be “sinning” and would have a chance at “salvation”.

Remember, many wish for Sodomy laws to still be on the books. Sodomy laws and forcing gay partners to live apart are two sides of the same coin.

Alex
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

Call their bluff: If no parity for gay families, then the lgbt actively campaign against immigration reform. Immigration laws are easy to kill, the script write itself. “At least the queers are real Americans” is easy to sell. So yeah, bring it

Everett
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

I say let immigration reform die if some of the “Christian” groups backing it are afraid of including same-sex couples within the legislation. And for the record, I SUPPORT immigration reform since the immigration system hasn’t been reformed since Reagan was in office. However, I’d rather the reform not happen for now rather than let these so-called Christians win the day on this issue and the gay and lesbian folks are once again left out of another major reform, just as GLBT folks were left out of the Senate Health Care bill that became law without as much of a peep from the so-called liberal news media (including the NYTimes).

pepa
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

Maybe this serve as a lesson to all of us not to trust the pro-illegal immigrant leadership.

We do realize that the majority of immigrants (illegal or legal) are OPPOSED to gay marriage and even some have parroted the notion that gays want to indoctrinate kids into homosexuality on Spanish television.

Has HRC apologized for marching with homophobes in Phoenix over the SB 1070 law? Nope, they would rather support a movement that is lead by homophobes than the actual movement it is supposed to represent.

Lynn David
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

Surely these Catholics and Hispanic evangelicals are just so caught up in “fighting the homosexual agenda” that they have never asked themselves how they really want specific same-sex couples to be treated. Surely they do not actually wish for John Beddingfield and Erwin de Leon, a couple discussed in the article, to be forced to live apart.

Timothy, it is very simple. When in your moral code gay sex is to be avoided at all costs, then not only do you abstain yourself but you cannot support anything at all, government bills, school GLSEN groups, etc., which in any way shape or form might be supportive of “the evil that is homogenic sex” (as one Catholic bishop once put it). To support such a bill is then also considered sinful (and many a Catholic bishop and pope said just that).

SDMC
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

What is this jargon about “they”, who is “they” anyway? “They” want to put us in concentration camps? I have never ever heard anything like that?

How many of you on this page can honestly-truthfully state that “they” wanted to put “you” in a concentration camp?

Higher taxes? Uhm excuse me, but turbo tax doesn’t ask for your sexual desires when figuring your taxes.

Wait until you have heart problems or cancer, you won’t even be able to purchase health insurance and it’s not based on who you want to sleep with.

The statements here are full of drama and emotional sensationalism.

Timothy, this is nothing more than the emotional drama you witnessed as a boy sitting on a church pew! I can tell you are the son of a preacher, you jump, leap,roll on the ground and shake your fist trying to force your wants and views on other’s all the while demanding that the world bow to you.

Wow, the very controling spirit you hated is the very spirit that lives on in you! Take a personal inventory check young man.

Mark E
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

Great idea.. start sham marriages with all the ‘undesirables’, bring them here and unleash them on the catholic and fundie latinos! Lets fill the country with hetero undesirables!

pepa
September 14th, 2010 | LINK

“How many of you on this page can honestly-truthfully state that “they” wanted to put “you” in a concentration camp?”

Well it has happened before. But “they” were the big liberals, namely FDR, and “you” were actually Japanese Americans during WWII.

This is one hypocrisy liberals hate to admit.

Franck
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

I’ve read that article on WaPo and made the incredible mistake of reading the comments. Two days later, I’m still recovering from that short incursion in the land of pure hate.

Needless to say, I’m one of the most forgiving people I know, but the Catholic Church keeps digging itself deeper in my esteem, if that was possible. As for Evangelical Hispanics, things like this being my first introduction to them, I can’t say my esteem for them has ever been above “low”.

I’m perfectly willing to be selfish on this issue. If you won’t change the laws that has locked me out of your country and far from my love for over three years, then let the project burn.

Born in the USA
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

Let’s help kill immigration reform unless it includes fill equality. The LGBT community should acitively campaign against bringing more homophobic third-world church fodder into our country. Teach both Obama and the Catholics a lesson.

DN
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

Alex, you bring up a very good point. Something I try to remind people of is that in the vast majority of bi-national couples living in America, 50% of the relationship is an American citizen!

It’s a lot easier to oppose immigration rights for non-Americans than it is to oppose Americans.

SDMC
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

I have not seen one article from a worthy source or one piece of legislation to suggest putting “gay” people in “concentration camps.” To compare yourselves to the tragedies of WWII is irresponsible. Millions of Jewish Men, Women and Children were murdered in concentration camps.

As for the Japanese contratration camps, I lived fifteen miles from one of them. Met the producer and many surviors who came back years later to film a movie of it. REALTY CHECK! YOU ARE NOT THE SAME AS THOSE WHO YOU DISHONOR!

Hate crimes are committed everyday in this world against innocent people of all walks of life. Many of you commenting on this page hold yourselves above all other’s. Other’s who just live their lives.

Franck
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

SDMC, check your history books better. Gays were put into concentration camps, too. The only difference? After the camps were “liberated”, while the other inmates were freed, gays were mostly just sent to other prisons.

Many of you commenting on this page hold yourselves above all others.

No. I aim to hold myself at the same level as all others and actively oppose those who want me to remain inferior to them, like these people are currently doing.

In this case, if they don’t want us to have access to the same basic rights they’re asking for, then I would vote to give them equal lack of access to these rights. Equality, that’s the key here.

Emily K
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

a man who puts “gay” in quotes. Wonder if he spells out the word homosexual as “homoSEXual.”

Emily K
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

As a Jewish queer woman, I take offense at the idea that I’m dishonoring my own people by acknowledging the fact that gays were put into camps, largely under the guise of “anti-social undesirables.” Had i lived in the third reich in the 30′s and 40′s, I’d have been twice convicted of being a detriment to the “Aryan race.”

darkmoonman
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

“How many of you on this page can honestly-truthfully state that ‘they’ wanted to put ‘you’ in a concentration camp?”

I can. I’ve the “pleasure” of a local GOP politician telling me, in all seriousness, that he wanted to confine gays in camps. Technically, he didn’t say “you” since he didn’t know I was gay – I was just a common joe to him.

Jim Burroway
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

“How many of you on this page can honestly-truthfully state that ‘they’ wanted to put ‘you’ in a concentration camp?”

Do you mean like this guy?

Priya Lynn
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

Lindoro said “It will take them probably the same amount of time it took them to admit that Copernicus was right, that Galileo was right, that Martin Luther had some very good points…”.

Right, like when he advocated pursecuting Jews and said “Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but – more frequently than not – struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God”.

AJD
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

“I have difficulty fathoming a moral code that includes deliberate and blatant cruelty.”

I don’t. Remember that for most of time that Christianity has been around, we have been burned at the stake, publicly tortured and more.

The unfortunate reality is that the deliberate and blatant cruelty of which you speak is far more consistent with the history of Christianity than churches and individual Christians that support us are.

For all their talk of “love” and “compassion,” these people are incapable of human feeling, as far as we’re concerned; they’re not sociopaths, but they belong to a sociopathic institution that makes them behave in sociopathic ways and rejoice when they know they’ve hurt us. Their notion of “love” is the same as the kind that an abusive father feels after beating his kids to a pulp to make them behave.

DN
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

William F Buckley, who was by no means a fringe voice on the right, advocated for tatooing IV drug users and gays. Furthermore, he stood by that statement many years after he made it.

And while I by *no* means take Lyndon Larouche seriously, he did campaign for quarntining California gays.

TampaZeke
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

Yet Gay, Inc. was telling us that we should boycott Arizona over their treatment of illegal immigrants.

We seem to give a lot of support to other oppressed minorities that we don’t get reciprocated.

TampaZeke
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

SDMC, the OVERWHELMING majority of Jews don’t share your opinion that gay people demean Jews by pointing out our persecution. You clearly aren’t Jewish so what gives you impression that you speak for the majority of Jewish people who clearly disagree with you?

The only people who ever come out with this bullshit are non-Jewish anti-gay fundamentalist Christians. Your opinion of gay people more resembles that of the Nazis than it does of the persecuted Jews. You might want to think about that and figure out why that is.

Timothy Kincaid
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

Higher taxes? Uhm excuse me, but turbo tax doesn’t ask for your sexual desires when figuring your taxes.

Many same-sex couples who are legally married in the eight states in which same sex marriage is recognized pay higher federal income tax than their heterosexual counterparts.

The statements here are full of drama and emotional sensationalism.

Timothy, this is nothing more than the emotional drama you witnessed as a boy sitting on a church pew! I can tell you are the son of a preacher, you jump, leap,roll on the ground and shake your fist trying to force your wants and views on other’s all the while demanding that the world bow to you.

Wow, the very controling spirit you hated is the very spirit that lives on in you! Take a personal inventory check young man.

Well someone is engaging in emotional drama, but it isn’t me. I’m not much into jumping, rolling on the ground, or demanding that the world bow to me. I’ll leave that to you.

I’m more into demanding that Constitutional protections of “all” and “any person” be correctly applied to include gay people.

David
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

Me thinks SMDC projects too much.

SDMC
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

Gay vs “Gay” vs Homosexual vs whatever?

Jim, how would you like to be referenced? Do you know?

Concentration camp:

Sorry, just can’t make the connection with some wild imagination and with what did happen. Millions of people taken from their homes, put on trains to concentration camps and gas-ed to death just doesn’t compute to the claims you are making. There are daily injustices happening all over the world to people of all walks of life.

How common is it to win a civil rights case? Not very? A handful of major victories since 1964. Civil rights are violated everyday and most get by with it.

Taxes are based on your adjusted gross income, your deductions etc. I don’t believe the Federal IRS and States are targeting same sex people or gays or whatever you want to be called? Jim weight in on this one??

My income taxes aren’t based on my sexuality,I pay taxes based on my income and my deductions, it’s an income thing-come up with the deductions or get a job that pays less.

My health insurance isn’t based on my sexuality. Took out a policy last week-not one question about my sexuality.

Preacher Timothy,

I have read many of your articles/sermons and often times you write about or post comments referencing your pentecostal back ground, your pentecostal preacher father and your childhood memories of those years; the speaking in tongues, casting out demons, etc. I simple made a point to tell you what I see coming from you based on your writings. Which isn’t much different from the emotional pentecostal memories you often share with your readers.

It is obvious, the skills you learned then, you still use today. You write about how you can use Jesus and Christianity to further your cause. How you can get more members and supporters to assist you with the cause. More rallies, more political agenda’s, more moral values, more ethics, more justice, more rights, the best buzz words, more blah, blah.

You sound just like a pentecostal preacher who uses force, emotion and manipulation to build a congregation. “Do what we say or God will strike you dead.” “Go along with our agenda or fire and brim stone will fall on you”.

Your articles bash politicians and threatening their careers when they don’t share your very thoughts and beliefs. You do the same to minister’s, targeting any domination.

The message is: How can we force the world to conform to us? How your going to force your desires and opinions on everyone and if they don’t accept it you verbally abuse and slander them. You ostracize them and belittle them. How is your current method any different from the method used in your pentecostal back ground? Do you not seek to control other’s and ostracize and belittle those who resist just like the pentecostal church? Both appear from the same cloth.

Oh, that word you profess “Christian” what does that really mean? Is your christian message salvation or your sexuality?

Greg
September 15th, 2010 | LINK

Wow. SDMC is stupid.

I’d say more, but the troll doesn’t deserve more.

Timothy Kincaid
September 16th, 2010 | LINK

SDMC

Actually, other than one commentary in December 2008 and one comment made to a thread in March 2008, I don’t believe I’ve ever mentioned my father or what his faith consisted of. Certainly not “many” or “often times.”

So I very much doubt that you are a regular reader of this site. Rather, I suspect that you are an angry anti-gay activist whom I’ve encountered somewhere else (I have a guess where) who now wishes to come here anonymously to make insults.

Further evidence is your complete ignorance about the health care insurance issue. Those who read here know that gay couples are taxed on their employee provided health insurance while heterosexual couples are not.

SDMC
September 16th, 2010 | LINK

These posts are for Timothy Kincaid. I don’t expect most of you will get it. Your oblivious to this. It’s about the war being waged in the heaven-lies for his soul.

He not only has a Pentecostal preacher father whom he bashes, he had a gorgeous pentecostal praying mother and has two Pentecostal brother preachers.

Timothy knows who Yeshua, Adonai, El Shaddai, Elohim and Shofet are, he knows who the I am that I am is. He knows the truth, the way and the life.

Will he share it with you? No, probably not, I suspect he’ll be in the pig pen for a while longer.

There’s a story in the Bible about Timothy, Yeshua told it like this:

“A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. 13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. 14 But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. 15 Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.”’
20 “And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring[a] out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.
25 “Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.’
28 “But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him. 29 So he answered and said to his father, ‘Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. 30 But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’
31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

Timothy, Adonai has a robe, a ring and a great feast planned for you upon your return.

Shalom

Priya Lynn
September 16th, 2010 | LINK

SDMC said “I don’t believe the Federal IRS and States are targeting same sex people or gays or whatever you want to be called?”.

You’re a liar. Married same sex couples don’t get the same tax breaks that married heterosexual couples do. You can’t possibly be unaware of this, but telling the truth interferes with your anti-gay BS so you lie about it.

As to the rest of your spittle-flecked rant – yawn.

Timothy Kincaid
September 16th, 2010 | LINK

And that, folks, is what passes for evangelism by the frothing ranting sanctimonious self-righteous branch of Christianity.

sigh

Born in the USA
September 17th, 2010 | LINK

Tim- Why did you let some religious moron hijack this thread? Teh point is that we have to organize politically AGAINST immigration reform if it does not include full equality. Immigration bills are easy to kill, and the Tea Party would love gay support on this.

Somebody get the message to the Catholics and Hispanic Evangelicals: This queer is ready to call my Senators and make sure they never vote for reform. I’m ready to ask my family to call their senators too, they’re in the South and they prefer their gay American son to some third-world homophobe coming here and getting on welfare. And there’s millions of Americans like me, you know actual citizens who actually can vote even tho we’re queer.

Leave A Comment

All comments reflect the opinions of commenters only. They are not necessarily those of anyone associated with Box Turtle Bulletin. Comments are subject to our Comments Policy.

(Required)
(Required, never shared)

PLEASE NOTE: All comments are subject to our Comments Policy.