28 responses

  1. Regan DuCasse
    October 5, 2010

    The stigmatization of contraception/non procreative sex is prevalent in the anti gay equality argument.

    Whether the partners are op sex or same sex, the veil of privacy is allowed to come down between op sex partners. It doesn’t seem that those determined to discriminate against gay couples and unmarried couples, let their imaginations invade op sex bedrooms. Nor civil laws. In more fundamentally religious communities, the proscriptions for sex are ASSUMED to adhered to, as well as narrowly defined.
    But only policing and enforcement is in the interests of the same, against gay couples.

    The prejudice against contraception, or non procreative couples…or especially against women, annoys the hell out of me.

    You’d think that it’s a mandate to make babies for…who exactly?
    You’d think that thousands of children hadn’t been abandoned by the very parents so deified by the religious right in this political discussion.

    You’d think we had a severely underpopulated planet, and that their concern is the proliferation of humanity, when in reality, it’s ALWAYS been about increasing one’s OWN tribe and family.
    Because killing anyone who WASN’T in the tribe or family, is a tradition too.

    And you’d think, that given the reality of an overcrowded, polluted planet, those who don’t contribute to that, or the masses of children living in poverty, would be given far more respect for that.

    Yes, this whole issue has been a bitch to discuss rationally with our opposition.
    All they’ve demonstrated is that while they live and share this little planet, they don’t want to. Although they are physically here, their minds left the planet a long time ago.

  2. Regan DuCasse
    October 5, 2010

    I remember one of my clever friends asking me about attraction to someone transgendered.
    I’m in that category of thoroughly heterosexual, with no ss attraction or experience.
    But I told my friend, in all honesty, the person would have to have completed transition.

    However, I think all of us are conditioned to rely too much on superficial aspects of attraction. What we SEE at first is one thing, but being more attracted to, and falling in love with more of the whole person, past appearance is so very important.

    So a pre op transwoman, could well be VERY attractive to a man that doesn’t identify as gay. They love who they are with, just as a unique person. And would utilize more flexibility in themselves if they took their relationship to such a physically intimate level.
    Which is up to THEM, and nobody else.

    But there are people who fetish just about anything. But that would still be on a level of less depth.

    What is truly important here, and something I firmly believe in: is to let individuals be adults and find their own levels regarding gender and orientation.

    We also know of asexual people. That aren’t attracted SEX, or are no longer interested, but still want to have companionship and a significant other to be with for all the reasons those marriage vows are so wonderful.
    Sometimes with their SS. This is apparently true also that there is SS attraction among the asexual.

    That road to love ain’t smooth in the best of times. It’s exceptionally cruel to deliberately throw rocks on that path to trip on, based on such narrow definitions about which adults should be attracted to other adults.

  3. abel
    October 5, 2010

    I’m an older gay man and I regularly have sex with seven other older men, all but one of whom are married and all of whom consider themselves straight, not bisexual. Yet I see some of them on a weekly basis. More than half of them have said they have more sex with me than with their wives. In some of the cases, it’s one way service, of course, but in others, it’s reciprocal. Yet if you counted the eight of us, only one (me) would identify as gay. They aren’t attracted to me, of course, they’re attracted by sex. Well, life’s full of compromise, isn’t it?

  4. Priya Lynn
    October 5, 2010

    Regan said “You’d think that it’s a mandate to make babies for…who exactly?”.

    I was surprised by this pervasive attitude as well. When I was with my wife prior to transition a constant question was “When are you going to have children?”. When we responded “We’re not going to have children.” most people acted angry and/or offended. I asked one of my sisters, who was one of these people, “What difference does it make to you?”, she responded that she felt our choice was in essence criticizing her choice to have children. I can see now that most people want other couples to have children to validate their own choices and feel threatened when other couples choose to be childless because that forces them to consider that having children might not automatically be the most fullfilling choice.

  5. EZam
    October 5, 2010

    In several cultures around the world, some men have sex with other men (the latter usually assuming “female” roles), yet neither identify as homosexual or Bisexual.

  6. krakatoa
    October 5, 2010

    In case you had any doubts, the chief cause of AIDS in the U.S. is men having sex with men. The Centers for Disease Control has released tragic new statistics: “Gay and bisexual men … men who have sex with men [or MSM] of all races continue to be the risk group most severely affected by HIV,” the report states. “Additionally, this is the only risk group in the U.S. in which the annual number of new HIV infections is increasing.”

    The statistics revealed the following:

    * MSM account for nearly half of the more than one million people living with HIV in the US (48 percent, or an estimated 532,000 total persons);

    * MSM account for more than half of all new HIV infections in the U.S. each year (53 percent, or an estimated 28,700 infections);

    * While the CDC estimates that MSM account for just 4 percent of the U.S. male population aged 13 and older, the rate of new HIV diagnoses among MSM in the U.S. is more than 44 times that of other men;

    * MSM are the only risk group in the U.S. in which new HIV infections are increasing. While new infections have declined among both heterosexuals and injection drug users, the annual number of new HIV infections among MSM has been steadily increasing since the early 1990s.

    The fact is, men having sex with men is bad for their health. The prevalence of AIDS is just one indicator. You gotta wonder why TEC bishops are blind, deaf and dumb and that the “gospel” of inclusion can be a death sentence for men having sex with men. Same–sex commitment is largely a myth.

  7. johnathan
    October 5, 2010

    From this article: …”a man who lays back, closes his eyes, and says, ‘hey, a blowj*b is a blowj*b.’”

    What percentage of males in the study fall into this specific category? That is, how many men would identify as “straight,” yet engage in that one-way service (as abel notes above)? Is this addressed in the study? If not, it certainly needs to be.

  8. Regan DuCasse
    October 5, 2010

    krakatoa,
    You’re not helping and you’re WAY off. The chief CAUSE of AIDS, is not men having sex with men.
    The chief cause of the spread of AIDS, is unprotected sex, and promiscuity.
    The higher risk groups are msm, but also black hetero WOMEN are a similar demographic as gay men.

    And it’s no coincidence they are a higher risk group from other factors. Marginalized minorities aren’t as likely to have access to education and medical insurance or care. And, with good reason, haven’t built trust with the medical establishment as other groups have.
    Another rising at risk group since the late 90′s has been the elderly.

    This demographic, like gay men, don’t have the spectre of pregnancy to restrict their activity or number of partners.
    The sort of sexual freedom at the advent of contraception like birth control pills, created another set of risks of disease.

    So MSM are NOT the ONLY risk group in which infection is rising.
    Although heterosexuals are a decreasing risk group, BLACK heterosexuals are not.

    What do you know, another devalued minority besides gay people having similar health issues for similar reasons.
    If you’re going to say something, say it right, or don’t bother.
    Misinformation and stigma is why AIDS became the horrendous pandemic it did to begin with.

  9. Other Fred in the UK
    October 5, 2010

    @ krakatoa,

    Same–sex commitment is largely a myth.

    Since, in your post, you appear keen on evidence, do you have evidence for this.

  10. Priya Lynn
    October 6, 2010

    Krakatoa said “The fact is, men having sex with men is bad for their health.”.

    That’s a lie. Two men in a monogamous relationship has no more health risks then a man and a woman in a monogamous relationship. Men having sex with multiple partners is what is bad for health.

  11. Priya Lynn
    October 6, 2010

    I should rephrase that last sentence. People having sex with multiple partners is what is bad for health, not men alone.

  12. Brian
    October 6, 2010

    Wow, I’ve always wanted to be mythic–thanks, Krakatoa! My partner-now-LEGAL-husband and I have been in a monogamous relationship for 28 years. In fact, our personal circle of gay friends are mostly long-term relationships that have well outlasted the statistical norm for straight couples.

    Saying things or even typing them into the ether don’t make them fact on either end of this silly argument. This is why studies like this one help clarify things.

    Krakatoa, have you ever talked to actual gay people? You’d be surprised how many of us are long-term committed.

    And… I assume you are as repulsed by straight divorce? Are you actively fighting to make divorce illegal?

  13. Timothy Kincaid
    October 6, 2010

    Krakatoa also posts here using the name Box Frog and Dan Farrell

  14. Priya Lynn
    October 6, 2010

    Brian, Krakatoa/Box Frog/Dan Farrell doesn’t know anything about gay people, he just makes up lies to suit his hate campaign.

  15. Susara
    October 6, 2010

    Abel, am I correct in assuming that the wives of these men you are having sex with are not happily consenting to what’s going on? And you talk about this casually in the framework of an academic discussion on ss identification as if there’s nothing to it?

  16. Jason D
    October 6, 2010

    I too am surprised to find out that I’m a myth. Here I thought the last 4.5 years of living, loving, laughing with my partner were part of reality. I wonder, since we don’t exist, if we still have to pay our taxes and rent?

  17. The Engineer
    October 7, 2010

    “And there is probably not a significant percentage of the population who regularly are anal sex recipients yet who lack any same-sex attraction.”

    That was a pretty big statement, are you faimiliar with the concept of ‘pegging’? Having your wife penetrate you does not correllate with feeling same-sex attraction.

  18. Priya Lynn
    October 7, 2010

    Engineer said “Having your wife penetrate you does not correllate with feeling same-sex attraction.”.

    I think it does.

  19. Emily K
    October 7, 2010

    Engineer said “Having your wife penetrate you does not correllate with feeling same-sex attraction.”.

    I think it does.

    No, it doesn’t. As long as it’s a woman performing a sex act, and that is the gender the man finds attractive, it’s not a marker for same-sex attraction. Just like if a prisoner lies back and thinks of a girl when another man services him, the type of sex act does not equate with sexual orientation. This is as ridiculous as saying a lesbian who enjoys strap-ons or dildos is secretly straight or bisexual. Or a straight woman who enjoys digital sex performed by a man is secretly attracted to other women.

    Or is everyone here settling for the stereotype that buttsecks = gayness?

  20. Emily K
    October 7, 2010

    krakatoa/box frog/dan farrell,

    tell me how lesbians are breeding grounds for disease, death, and promiscuity. Otherwise, you are saying in omission that you find gay men icky but no problem with lesbians. (and probably get turned on by them, if you’re not gay yourself.)

    Hm? One statistic, please?

  21. Priya Lynn
    October 7, 2010

    Emily, I am attracted to women but when I was married to a woman I had her penetrate me and it was because I was desiring men at the time. Just as a prisoner may lie back and think of a girl when another man services him a husband may think of a man while his wife penetrates him. Anyone who enjoys being penetrated by a penis analogue can also be turned on by being penetrated by a penis. Its possible that a heterosexual man may receive fellatio from another man while thinking of a woman but that’s because the act is the same whether its a woman or not. When a man is penetrated by a woman or a lesbian by a dildo, that’s similating penetration by a penis, something a woman isn’t naturally equipped to do. When one is enjoying an act that is representative of men its a pretty tough argument to say they aren’t sexually aroused by men or at least one aspect of men.

  22. Emily K
    October 7, 2010

    Well gee, Priya, I guess your single personal experience is enough to judge the sexualities of everybody else in the world.

    And here I thought people engaged in sexual acts that stimulated certain erogenous zones with their partners because they enjoyed the physical sensations, not because they thought their partners were “lacking” in some sense.

    And since when does genitalia alone determine sexual orientation? After all, your most important sexual organ is the one between your ears. There’s a difference between becoming aroused by a sexual act or situation and embodying a type of sexual orientation.

  23. Richard Rush
    October 7, 2010

    Hey, krakatoa, my partner and I have been happily and healthfully promoting the myth of same-sex commitment for 29 years.

    And, by-the-way, krakatoa is an appropriate name-choice. You really are similar to a volcano, which is similar to a giant pimple that sometimes pops and oozes pus.

  24. Timothy Kincaid
    October 7, 2010

    Engineer,

    “And there is probably not a significant percentage of the population who regularly are anal sex recipients yet who lack any same-sex attraction.”

    That was a pretty big statement, are you faimiliar with the concept of ‘pegging’? Having your wife penetrate you does not correllate with feeling same-sex attraction.

    The study was of “received penis in anus.” Unless their wives had grown penises, I don’t think they were measuring pegging.

  25. Emily K
    October 7, 2010

    If the study is about “received penis in anus,” and that specific act ONLY, then I’d say it might correlate. I’ll take Timothy’s noted example a bit further – What does it say about a man who is only sexually attracted to MTF transgender persons who look female but are still male in their genitalia? Are these people gay? bisexual? Closeted?? In denial??? Maybe they’re just human.

  26. Eastsidejim
    October 7, 2010

    The morality of extra-martial sex aside… The number of married men who regularly enjoy sex with another man, and don’t identify as “LGBT” is an indicator of how these studies can be skewed to the “straight” side of the statistics. As Tim mentioned in the article, it is difficult to measure who is LGBT because of the individualistic definition / nature of sexual orientation. The only sure measure is what sex the men are having (as in repeatedly not the once at age 13). There was a study in 2006 that showed nearly 10% of straight identified men ONLY have sex with men and 70% of “straight” identified men having sex with men are married. Article cite below….

    _____________

    Nearly 10% of Self-Proclaimed ‘Straight’ Men Only Have Sex With Men
    By Daniel J. DeNoon
    WebMD Health News
    Reviewed by Louise Chang, MD

    Sept. 18, 2006 —

    Nearly one in 10 men who say they’re straight have sex only with other men, a New York City survey finds.

    And 70% of those straight-identified men having sex with men are married……

    http://www.webmd.com/sex/news/20060918/many-straight-men-have-gay-sex

  27. RobNYNY1957
    October 8, 2010

    Another intersting thing in the man-on-man sex acts performed in the last year (gave oral, received oral, inserted penis in anus, received penis in anus). They all initially peak in the early 20′s, and then generally decline through the 30′s. That is what you would expect from gay men as they settle down and their sex drives slow. But then in the 40′s and 50′s thosee numbers start to rise again and reach very high numbers again in the 50′s. I speculate that this is the result of nominally hetero men who begin to experiment with man-on-man sex in early middle age. It certainly matches my straight male friends in those age groups. I’m surprised this trend hasn’t received more comment.

  28. Jnyca
    January 25, 2011

    These studies are so inconclusive in my opinion. Any gay guy can tell you they have had a decent amount of sexual contact with men who would never consider themselves “gay”.

    Most people just aren’t about advertising this sort of information in a public sphere that so clearly demonizes gays.

    And at the end of the day, a mouth is a mouth….who cares? Look at prison….with no other option those guys sure seem fine screwing other guys, and a lot of them definitely don’t consider themselves gay.

    Also, a lot of cultures don’t consider themselves gay if they are the top (or the penetrator) … figure that out…. it’s completely irrational but that’s the thought process.

    Most people try it once no matter what they say, and the truth is…. there is obviously a LOT MORE homosexual sex happening than anyone wants to claim.

    Either way, whether there is a larger number or smaller number, it is still pathetic how badly our country treats gays. End of story.

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