Box Turtle Bulletin

Box Turtle BulletinNews, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric
“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
This article can be found at:
Latest Posts

Statistics and Pastor Tom

Timothy Kincaid

November 17th, 2011

UPDATE BELOW – IT’S EVEN BETTER THAN I COULD WISH FOR

Here’s a statistic you didn’t know:

Pastor Tom Vineyard of Windsor Hill Baptist Church in Oklahoma City consumes in excess of 423 pies a day, meaning that 52% of all pies baked in Oklahoma City are eaten by Vineyard.

A New York judge told me so.

Actually, I have no idea whether Vineyard even likes pie (though I can guess). All of the above statistics are bogus numbers I made up on the spot.

However, I’m willing to bet that they are more accurate than the bogus numbers that Vineyard made up when he went to speak before the Oklahoma City Council in opposition to an ordinance to ban anti-gay discrimination in employment.

Pastor Tom Vineyard of Windsor Hills Baptist Church cited a New York judge in saying more than half of murders in large cities are committed by gay people.

Well, Vineyard didn’t exactly cite the “New York judge” (mental accent courtesy of Pace Picante Sauce), he just claims him as a source. And, in fact, he can’t recall exactly which New York judge actually told him this fascinating statistic (I guess he knows a lot of them). So far, though, no New York judge has stepped forward to claim authorship.

Oh, but pastor Vineyard didn’t stop there. He also informed the council:

“Many homosexuals openly admit that they are pedophiles because they cannot actually reproduce. They resort to recruiting children. … Folks, you’re making a decision that will bring down God’s judgment on your city if you vote in favor of this.”

Ya see, recruiting is a higher priority than actual attraction. So that’s why gays are pedophiles. To keep the numbers up. Because if homosexuals weren’t all barren, then Jerry Sandusky wouldn’t diddle the kiddies. Logical, huh? Where’s my pie?

Now while such obvious nonsense and blatant stupidity would result in hysterical laughter if stated in a group of, oh say, New York judges, the good people of Oklahoma City who showed up to defend anti-gay discrimination in their city seemed to find nothing peculiar about Vineyard’s creative “statistics”.

Vineyard received the longest standing ovation of the day after his remarks.

Because sometimes, when all you know about someone is that you don’t like them, you’ll believe anything you hear. Jews kill Christian babies – and praise God that’s just awful. And The Blacks are all on welfare; isn’t it so sad? And did you hear that the Nazis were all homosexual? Oh yes, and many openly admit it!!

Fortunately not everyone is quite so inclined to believe anything negative about gay people – no matter how truly stupid – that they think they once heard from a New York judge. Scott Hamilton, pastor of Church of the Open Arms in Oklahoma City and executive director of Cimarron Alliance, provided a little faith-based context:

“To couch in Christian terms these so-called statistics, I’ll call them what they are. They are lies.”

Well, I’m sure Pastor Tom is embarrassed now that the town is laughing at him. And they are. But I very much doubt that he’s learned any lesson. Folks like Pastor Tom move right on from whatever bizarre heap of churchpoop he’s shoveling out to “well God says”. It doesn’t matter much to the Pastor Toms if what they said is actually true, because praisegodjesusisthewaythetruthandthelife so Pastor Tom doesn’t have to bother himself with facts. Or with even trying to avoid downright lies.

And one last statistic. Pastor Tom Vineyard of Windsor Hill Baptist Church in Oklahoma City is more than 50% a self-satisfied, blow-hard, arrogant, self-righteous idiot. And I don’t even need a New York judge to tell me so.

UPDATE

A new statistic: Pastor Tom Vineyard is 12% more of a raging loon that previously believed.

Here is Pastor Tom in his own words (but with no pie in sight)

[A little side note about Pastor Tom’s comments about Jesus. You can read them in Luke 17. There isn’t even a sideways hint that maybe possibly Sodom was destroyed cuz of Teh Ghey. In fact, as recorded in that passage Jesus was suggesting that it was indistinguishable from any other day at any other place: “People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.” And while there were Sodomites as far as the eye could see, they don’t seem to have been of the homoSEXual variety.]

Ya know, Pastor Tom sounds authoritative, doesn’t he. Just one problem… Pastor Tom is more full of CP (churchpoop) than he is of pie. David Badash of the New Civil Rights Movement compiles some work from Stephanie Zvan with Pastor Tom’s letter and calls CP on all of the mess.

Comments

POST COMMENT | COMMENT RSS 2.0

Tony P
November 17th, 2011 | LINK

And what’s more, if you really study Christianity you learn that it’s mostly just made up. As in ALL of it.

Sir Andrew
November 17th, 2011 | LINK

And now, just for fun, go to his church’s website. They are no longer accepting email for the good Pastor Dummy. One can only imagine what that mail has looked like in the days following his public display of pure idiocy.

Darina
November 17th, 2011 | LINK

Why isn’t that girl in the right end of the photo wearing blue? :)

The pastor is such a parody… but alas, there are always people to take somebody like him seriously.

Steve
November 17th, 2011 | LINK

Here is the likely source:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2011/11/16/a-good-lie-for-jesus-is-immortal

Turns out that judge served in the 50s! And he was a “moral” crusader

Gregory Peterson
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

I had tracked down the quote and the Judge’s name at the Free Republic website, a reliable source for highly unreliable information. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1502263/posts

Here is a book by Chief Magistrate Murtugh. http://www.scribd.com/doc/30449172/Cast-the-First-Stone

Ryan
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

The pedophile stuff is an obvious lie that “stacks the deck” by declaring anyone who molests a boy a homosexual, despite the fact that most are married, and thus don’t count as part of the “2-3″ percent. The murderer stuff is I think a completely brand new stereotype that makes no sense at all. But the STD stats…any chance that they’re accurate?

Stephen
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

I got an email off to him. Must have beaten the ban.

Timothy Kincaid
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

Ryan,

No. They are not true.

I didn’t track down each of them, but an easy one stands out.

He claims that the majority of gay people have intestinal parasites. Do the gay people you know have intestinal parasites?

justme
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

“Actually, I have no idea whether Vineyard even likes pie (though I can guess).” Fat-bashing? Seriously?

Gee, I can’t imagine why gay men have so much trouble being taken seriously when even self-apopointed spokesmen behave in public like 13 year old mean girls.

So you don’t love anyone who’s fat, apparently. I do. And, trust me, you are not better than them, and, I’m guessing, not more attractive than them for not being fat.

It’s always the gay men who have absolutely nothing else going for them physically other than not being fat that put down fat people. In fact, I’ve just found a YouTube video of you to see who this perfect specimen is. It speaks for itself.

Not so much fun now, is it?

The moral of this story is don’t be a bully. It shows the entire world your insecurities, it detracts from the subject at hand, and it’s ugly as hell.

Jim Hlavac
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

That’s funny, seems 100% of us gay men denounce pedophilia in no uncertain terms and deny heatedly that we are pedophiles, and strangely, 100% seem to claim we knew we were gay when we were kids and had no one to talk to about it — and that 100% of us were not recruited or molested into this “lifestyle.” Maybe the good pastor should have asked us.

Meanwhile, I love how other of our detractors are quite insistent that we Choose to be gay, and still others that we were made gay by something our dads or moms did or did not do — perhaps this Vineyard fellow should talk to Rick Santorum and Peter Sprigg — it would a most humorous discussion to see the three of them battle out exactly why we are gay. For the three of them hold such completely opposite reasons that it boggles the mind.

For to be all at once made gay in toddler times, been recruited in teenage years, and choose to be gay in young adulthood is quite a feat for any man. Or perhaps they’ll agree that it takes the three things together, who knows anymore.

JFE
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

Out of all of these comments above, I have to agree with justme. I though this post was going to show just how the pastor was wrong, in that he failed to give sources, used biased and outdated sources, used unbelievingly misleading “statistics,” and did not care to understand his fellow man.

Instead, it seems this post is a bunch of name-calling. A follow-up please?

Regan DuCasse
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

In my professional life, and continued study of criminal analysis, I find people like Pastor Tim not only stunningly stupid, but bordering criminally responsible themselves.

There has to be a discussion on the danger of slander and libel of an entire minority group. That the traditionally maligned minorities have historically and traditionally suffered similar slander that’s led to wholesale menace to their lives.
Any law enforcement professional can look on such statements and rightfully caution Pastor Tim on HIS behavior and lack of ethics.
You all can tell ME, why people like this guy will ignore what I have to say, what professional expertise and experience I have to bring to the discussion.
Why does he have to go off like this without actually CONSULTING someone from a law enforcement agency or sex crimes counselor without concern as to the CONSEQUENCES of what his misinformation might do?

Bearing false witness has NO exceptions just because it’s a minority you consider beneath you. Jews suffered the results of this tactic, blacks, gays and lesbians. Myth and misinformation about the sexual proclivities of these minorities are all on historical record. In VERY RECENT history, and what this pastor DOESN’T know is a disgrace.
Using his position as a pastor requires that he be truthful, accurate and ethical in his reporting.

Ministers, teachers, politicians and persons in law enforcement are required to be more informed, accountable, fairer and certainly morally ethical in not just what we talk about but WHO we talk about.
Otherwise, the line is crossed and we leave the public very vulnerable and endanger the innocent, rather than protect them.
Such pillars of the community cannot incite the mob, any more than LEAD one. They are most in the position to keep mobs FROM forming and doing something really dangerous.

He’s a disgrace, this man. He’s dangerous and a liability. People in law enforcement know better. But it’s disconcerting and unfair that someone like HIM, thinks he can circumvent the truth, and use fear to challenge what someone like ME would know.
There is EARNING trust, and then there is ABUSING it.
The real shame of it, is that certain members of the public think what this man is saying, won’t come back to bite them eventually.

Timothy Kincaid
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

justme,

I’m not a self-appointed spokesman for anything. But, just to be certain, in case I appointed myself without noticing, I hereby revoke my appointment.

Better?

And by the way, why are you putting down people who are “ugly as hell”. Are you a looksist? We ugly as hell people have feelings too, you know.

Seriously, though, a college friend of mine is no longer with us. His heart and other organs simply could not sustain his weight. So I’m not too sympathetic to a defense of obesity.

But that’s not really the issue in the case of Pastor Tom. Sure, he’s heavy. But poking fun at “fat people” isn’t my point here.

What I see here is a form of hypocrisy.

Pastor Tom is quick to deny necessities to others – for heaven sake he’s there testifying for why gay people should not have employment protection (or really even exist) in Oklahoma City. It goes without saying that any pleasure that gay people might find would send Pastor Tom into a tizzy. But it seems evident that Pastor Tom finds no need to deny himself of the pleasure of eating.

And Pastor Tom was there ranting and railing about the imaginary “medical conditions of homosexuals”. But Pastor Tom seems to find no concern in the health hazards of obesity.

There is a reason that the phrase “fat and complacent” exists. It reflects an attitude of gluttony and self-interest. And throughout history, excessive weight was often perceived as selfishly consuming more than was necessary while others went without.

I don’t think that in our society a little extra weight suggests greed or gluttony. But I took a look at the ministers at Pastor Tom’s church and they all seem to share his fondness for pie. I did not, however see any mention of food for the needy.

In contrast, the Church of the Open Arms – the UCC church that was there to support the ordinance – runs a food pantry.

When i talked about pie in the above commentary, it was shorthand for this whole idea. “Where’s my pie?” speaks to Tom’s attitudes and priorities and perspectives and demands.

I agree that mocking something like a little extra weight is pretty shallow. But sometimes, sometimes, it has a deeper meaning.

Timothy Kincaid
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

Regan,

Ministers, teachers, politicians and persons in law enforcement are required to be more informed, accountable, fairer and certainly morally ethical in not just what we talk about but WHO we talk about.

Yes. Exactly.

In ministry, it’s called a “calling” and the idea behind that phrase is that ministry to others requires that you put yourself last, that you take on others’ burdens, that you see people through God’s eyes not your own prejudices, that you fight for justice and mercy in the lives of those around you and that all of this is such an imposition on the minister that surely no one would do it if God himself had not “called” the minister to do so. For those who take it seriously, it is a very heavy burden. It nearly destroyed my brother.

Sadly there are too many Pastor Tom’s who think that pastoring is about power and privilege and imposing your will on others. I guess they are “preachers” and not ministers.

Priya Lynn
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

Timothy said “And by the way, why are you putting down people who are “ugly as hell”. Are you a looksist? We ugly as hell people have feelings too, you know.”.

Now, that’s not fair, he wasn’t referring to your appearance being “ugly as hell”, but rather your making fun of a fat person.

Timothy Kincaid
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

parody, comedy, irony, humor

words that come before “seriously, though” generally are not to be taken seriously

Richard Rush
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

Timothy,

Pastor Tom Vineyard of Windsor Hill Baptist Church in Oklahoma City consumes in excess of 423 pies a day, meaning that 52% of all pies baked in Oklahoma City are eaten by Vineyard.

I think you’re exaggerating. I’m guessing that, while he buys all those pies, he only eats 23 of them each day. He smashes the other 400 and throws them in a dumpster. You know, he’s just like most gay people – while some of us would like a marriage, our real goal is to destroy it for everyone else. How did Grapehead miss that little Magic Fact in his itemized list of our evils?

NoxiousNan
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

“Fat and complacent” is an ignorant cliche, as was your rant at Justme. There is a reason these phrases exist as well:

Black people are good dancers.
Hippies never bathe.

The death of a friend is your excuse to be unsympathetic to those that might share the same risks? Empathy fail.

Terry
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

I see some choose to ignore the message and climb aboard the self-righteous train…Who knows maybe the next time they choke on their words others will refuse to give them the Heimlich maneuver for fear of a sexual harassment charge. Death by PC, what a story.

Priya Lynn
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

“words that come before “seriously, though” generally are not to be taken seriously”

You made several statements before “seriously though” and some of them were obviously not serious but it was not clear that you weren’t being serious when you suggested Justme’s “ugly as hell” comment referred to your looks. That was an unfair characterization of his comment even if some of what you were saying was a joke.

Andrew
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

I got the joke, Tim. Don’t worry. At least you are a frequent author on a popular website, as opposed to being a mostly anonymous commentator!

Also, Oklahoma (my insane state) is one of the fattest in the Union.

@Terry, :)

Timothy Kincaid
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

okie dokie

If y’all want to be offended, by all means be so. It’s Friday and I just can’t get worked up enough to really care if I’m a big bad evil (and apparently ugly) person for noting Pastor Tom’s weight.

You could see the bigger point about demanding self-denial in others while engaging in gluttony. You could recognize that obesity is actually a problem in the country and that ignoring it isn’t going to reduce stroke, hypertension, heart failure, diabetes or a zillion other health problems that are going to plague the nation’s Huge Middle class.

Or you can be angry and defensive.

As I said, it’s Friday. Go for what makes you happy. And if you’d rather be angry and defensive, then you certainly should be angry and defensive.

(Priya Lynn, unless I really think that I am “ugly as hell”, my comments kinda had to be ironic. And, for the record, I don’t think that at all. Actually, I’m only ugly as heck.)

(Andrew and Terry, thanks :)

Priya Lynn
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

Yes, I assumed you were being ironic when you said you were “ugly as hell”.
That’s why I didn’t think it was clear you weren’t accusing Justme of being hypocritical for criticizing youre making fun of Pastor Tom’s weight.

For the record I take no position on mocking people’s looks, I can see where people think that is in appropriate but I’ve done it myself so I’m not criticizing your comments.

Theo
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

Well, what happened here is that the pastor went to one of the “fact sheets” circulating on the internet, which purport to gather all of these statistics from various sources and offer them in one place. He didn’t invent each of these false statistics. He went to a single source and then simply repeated whatever he found there – false stats about crime, false assertions about molestation and stats – some false, some misleading and some outdated – about STDs. A number of these fact sheets don’t even rely on Paul Cameron anymore. They consist of carefully selected quotes, often from people that no one has ever heard of who were speaking decades ago – maybe Michael Swift’s satirical essay from 1987 or something from “After the Ball” – and some STD stats from non-representative studies from 1970s and go from there. Apparently, Christian love does not entail doing any actual work to determine whether any of these stats are accurate.

This goes on time after time. You saw it in Traverse City and in Manhattan, KS and in Kalamazoo, MI. It will keep on happening until our side gets smart and turns this deceit into an issue. Make their dishonesty the issue and it will stop.

Ben In Oakland
November 18th, 2011 | LINK

Theo, i couldn’t agree more

We refuse to talk about bigotry, children, and religious prejudice in the public sphere, and every time “those” people use those potent weapons.

No one calls them on it. instead, we get these weak-tea, everybody make nice kumbaya campaigns that don’t work.

jutta
November 19th, 2011 | LINK

I’m somehow more shocked about the sloppy reporting in NewsOK / The Oklahoman – “The State’s Most Trusted News” than about Tom Vineyard. Vineyard at least mentioned the (purported) source of his quote, the newspaper didn’t. He quoted Murtagh as saying that ‘homosexuals account for half of the murders in large cities’ (i.e. victims or perpetrators) – NewsOK cites this as “murders … commited by gay people”.

Priya Lynn
November 19th, 2011 | LINK

Jutta said “He quoted Murtagh as saying that ‘homosexuals account for half of the murders in large cities’ (i.e. victims or perpetrators) – NewsOK cites this as “murders … commited by gay people”.”.

It never occurred to me that he was saying gays were either victims or perpetrators, I assumed he meant gays were always the murderers.

Marauder
November 19th, 2011 | LINK

You know, I can deal with people’s religious beliefs because people can believe anything they want, no matter how crazy it sounds. If someone tells me they believe God is a cantaloupe or it’s a sin to wear shoes indoors, they can go ahead and believe that and I won’t try to convince them otherwise. But when they act as though they’re dealing in provable FACT when instead they’re just LYING, that’s when I get mad.

The whole “many homosexuals” thing is misleading in that, even if it were true, you can say that “many fill-in-the-blank” think or do such-and-such for any group of substantial size. You could say “Many New Yorkers cheat on their wives” and it would be “true” in that it would be possible to count a number of people in NY who cheat on their wives. But does that say anything about the entire population, or if being a New Yorker has any real connection to cheating on your wife? Heck no.

Ryan
November 19th, 2011 | LINK

jutta, given the context of this “holy” man’s speech, I think it’s safe to say he wasn’t intending to paint gay people as victims of murder.

jutta
November 26th, 2011 | LINK

@Ryan and Priya Linn:
Tom Vineyard probably meant 50% murderers, but I am not so sure about judge Murtagh. In the 1950s and early 60s most of the news items about gay men were about them being victims of violence or extortion. So it may well be that the judge was confronted with a disproportionate number of murdered gays.

Leave A Comment

All comments reflect the opinions of commenters only. They are not necessarily those of anyone associated with Box Turtle Bulletin. Comments are subject to our Comments Policy.

(Required)
(Required, never shared)

PLEASE NOTE: All comments are subject to our Comments Policy.