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News and commentary about the anti-gay lobby“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobbyMarch 30th, 2012
So it turns out that the JetBlue flight in which the pilot went batpoop crazy had a bunch of passengers heading to some security convention. It’s no wonder they tackled and held the nutcase until they were on the ground. With my luck, it would be like, ‘This is the flight going to the pride parade in San Francisco’. When I said we should get him, they’d respond, ‘you go get him, girl, and I’ll cheer you on. Look, I brought my pom-poms.’ And that’s when you start looking for the lesbians.
Is that funny? Is it offensive?
It depends on who says it. If it’s a gay comic, then it’s an inside joke – we can mock ourselves because it’s us. If it’s Kathy Griffin, sure, I’d laugh. Truth is, Kathy probably would be on a flight to the gay pride parade traveling with someone who brought pom-poms. If you spend enough time in our community, you become part of it and earn the right to a little self-mockery.
If it were Senator Inhofe, however, I’d be offended.
Basically, it hinges on three things: is there some truth in the joke, is it designed to “laugh with us” or to “laugh about them”, and is it malicious?
Of course, I’m talking about Carson Daly’s joke about the JetBlue flight:
On this particular flight, most of the people were on their way to some sort of security conference in Las Vegas… so it was a bunch of dudes, and well-trained dudes. If that were me…with my luck, it would be like, ‘This is the flight going to the pride parade in San Francisco… I mean, that would be my colleagues. “Uh, we’re headed down to Vegas for the floral convention.”
And everyone came unhinged. What a raging homophobe, claiming that all gay men are frightened weaklings. What a jerk, and in This Day and Age. How very dare he?
But I’m just not all that upset. Mostly, because Carson Daly actually isn’t a raging homophobe with a history of anti-gay animus. Less than a year ago, he was talking up the show he hosts, The Voice, as being gay-friendly, unlike it’s better known alternative. And his response to the brouhaha is telling.
Running Daly’s comment through my matix, here’s what I find: it is true (like it or not) that – in general – a plane full of security officers and a plane full of gay men are likely to have different responses to a crazy pilot. Also, based on comments before and since, I don’t think that the joke was malicious.
But the third criteria is tougher. Clearly, Daly hasn’t earned the right to mock the gay community. He’s not an out gay man, he doesn’t primarily socialize in the community, his hasn’t made a point of advocating for our community. He isn’t “us”. So Daly doesn’t get to make jokes based on gay stereotypes.
Rightly, GLAAD called him on it; stereotypes can be damaging if they go unchallenged. And the best response was from the mother of Mark Bingham, the gay man generally credited for leading the passengers to bring down Flight 93 on 9/11/01, thereby by saving either the White House or the Capitol Building. In fact, it may be Bingham’s example that has led to passengers being proactive recently in mid-air incidents.
Daly immediately apologized. And met with GLAAD. And apologized again. And I accept his apology and fine, it’s over.
And if you look more closely at his comments, and you take into consideration his age, occupation, and that he was raised in Santa Monica, there’s a pretty good chance that Daly thought that he was talking about “us” when he said that he’d probably be on the gay plane not the security plane. So I’ll cut him a little slack.
But not everyone agrees. Currently 63% of Huffpost Gay Voices respondents to the poll question “Is an apology a sufficient enough response when someone makes an anti-LGBT joke or remark?” are saying “no.”
And it got me thinking about why. Why is it that a thoughtless joke made by someone who supports our community and our rights requires some great public lamentation and self flagellation? Why the fury and the denunciations?
And I think I may have an inkling. We don’t know how to respond to “yes”.
For decades we have come before politicians and religious leaders and corporate leaders and Aunt Thelma and expressed our grievances and made our demands only to have reluctant, at best, response. We’ve been smilingly told that while they hear us, they do have to consider the views of others. And that they’ll form a committee to carefully look at the issue and issue some unidentifiable response in some unspecified future and they are so glad we brought this to their attention, there’s the door.
We don’t know how to respond to “Oh, dude, yeah I can see that was offensive but I wasn’t trying to dis you, man, and I’m really sorry.” That’s still new to us.
But the good news is that we had better learn.
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andrew
March 30th, 2012
This is a fantastic blog piece — awesome great yay.
I have a story I love to tell – “How I came out to my Conservative Fox-news-watching highschool friend’s college fraternity brothers”….
In fact, my friend “mentioned it” to them (without asking me first), and told me after the fact… right before we all arrived together for a long weekend of skiing and drinking. Redneck fratboys, alcohol, and the skinny, insecure gay dude: recipe for disaster, right?
All weekend, no one said anything about it. Topic: scrupulously avoided. Drunken 22 year old guys, we all uncharacteristically behaved like our mother was in the next room.
Halfway through the weekend, my highschool friend cracked a perfectly timed (hilarious) zinger aimed right at the unspoken issue of my sexual identity. His buddies all stopped breathing. Tension filled the room. Like a scene from a Tarantino movie before everyone starts firing.
Then I laughed.
It was funny. His comic timing was perfect. And he’s practically my brother (he’s “us”).
The point of the story? My laughing at myself — while also being very in touch with who I am and not apologizing for it — was like a magic charm. The tension was lifted – as was the taboo. I got a lot of honest questions that weekend around the whole gay thing, but never felt disrespected. It was charmingly weird.
These guys did not then and still may not really understand why a guy would end up gay, but they know that they know a gay guy, and he’s “cool”. He laughs at the same jokes, he’s funny, and he’s not like the stereotypes they were raised to loathe or perceive as weak. I get to be one of them, and, reciprocally, they get to be one of “us” – at least in the right settings. It taught me a valuable lesson about acceptance, and about self-confidence. And about how to be an ambassador when it’s necessary.
How much poorer the last 20 years would have been if I’d simply taken offence and had a brittle reaction. A lot less skiing, a lot less drinking, and a lot less cards. And a hell of a missed opportunity for the ongoing development of a young man just coming to grips with his sexuality.
Learning to laugh at ourselves while retaining our dignity is hard, but it is absolutely the ticket to acceptance, respect, and comraderie.
MattNYC
March 30th, 2012
OK, I actually think it’s funny too, and I consider him gay-friendly (wasn’t HE the Vee-Jay who has done solo porn?)
That said, I can’t help but recall Mark Bingham on Flight 93–one of the passengers who attempted to wrest control from the hijackers. Had he at least made reference to that, it would have been a perfect joke.
Muscat
March 30th, 2012
Sounds about right.
Russ Manley
March 30th, 2012
A couple of thoughts here. First, I agree very much with your final point: as a community, we need to learn to accept sincere apologies with good grace – and then just move the hell on.
But about his joke: as you pointed out, he’s not one of us, and no matter how gay-friendly he is he doesn’t get a pass for perpetuating the same sorry stereotype that has gone on for ages. Supposing Rick Santorum had been caught on an open mike telling the same joke to some buddies of his – how would you feel then? I think Daly’s telling of it gives the true homophobes a license to do the same thing – “well if he said it, why can’t I?” they would wail.
The answer of course is the same reason why, oh let’s say Eddie Murphy or another black comedian can tell a joke with the word “nigger” in it – but you and I and no other white person can. It’s just real simple, ya know?
And – suppose Daly’s joke had hinged on a different group – “just my luck, I was on a plane with all the Miss America pageant contestants. . . ” or “heading for the Korean Math Geeks convention . . .” – how would you feel about that?
It’s also worth remembering for ourselves and for the straights that it wasn’t the straight-acting gays who started the Stonewall riots – it was the nelly-looking drag queens who said, Oh hell no, and fought the police like wildcats. You can’t tell by looking who’s fierce and who’s not. And the whole point of all the movements for equality is not to pre-judge someone by their looks or biology and assumed abilities or lack of them, isn’t it?
So no, let’s not have any more Archie Bunker stereotyping, even from our straight allies. And really, it wouldn’t even have worked as an “in-joke” if told by a gay comedian, would it now?
But I’m fine with his apology. Lesson learned, turn the page and move on. We have bigger fish to fry.
Ryan
March 30th, 2012
MattNYC, you’re thinking of Simon Rex. I mean, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Ahem. As for the post topic, I agree that there’s been a collective over-reaction lately, no doubt brought about by years of not reacting at all. We all remember the homophobic attacks in every other 80’s comedy that nobody blinked at. Now, a movie character says “electric cars are gay” and it’s a huge scandal. I remember when was in high school in the early 90’s and a Repub politician referred to Barney Frank as “Barney Fag”, and there was barely a scandal. Now, Daly makes a stale, lame joke about gay sissies and we act like he’s some kind of hateful zealot. He apologized, Mark Bingam’s mom made the perfect response; let’s move forward. There has to be a balance where we condemn bigots like Bryan Fisher or Rick Santorum and we roll our eyes at clueless bad jokes from people like Daly.
Dante
March 30th, 2012
“That said, I can’t help but recall Mark Bingham on Flight 93–one of the passengers who attempted to wrest control from the hijackers. ” MattNYC
See, that is probably part of why Carson’s “joke” rankles so much.
The heroism of Mark Bingham was largely ignored by the mainsteam press, as is too often the case when any gay man does something heroic, self-sacrificing.
So Carson’s “joke” is just another reminder of how invisible the truth of our lives really is to far too many people.
Lucrece
March 31st, 2012
Tempest in a tea pot is all I can say about this.
Of all the offensive things to say, this is only rankling. Tired, obnoxious, but ultimately not the one I would be calling heads for. No one’s making noise about Hip hop figures with far greater cultural reach, or people like Chuck Norris, or the fact that someone as virulently anti-gay like Santorum has gained so much traction as a U.S. candidate.
Tom in Lazybrook
March 31st, 2012
I agree with this one. Barring evidence of any any animus or prior behavior…I’m willing to accept this.
I think Daly was guilty of nothing more than ignorance (e.g., simply not knowing the viewpoint of a community to which he is not a member). He apologized, learned his lesson.
David Waite
March 31st, 2012
Timothy, this column and Andrew’s response are a perfect reminder of why BTB is part of my home page, and why I read BTB every day. What you wrote was so exactly what I’ve been thinking about this incident, it’s empowering. It is comforting to know others see such things in the same way as oneself.
I’ve also been lucky enough to be in Andrew’s situation more than once in my life, reacted the way he did, and saw afterward what a positive effect my sense of humor (or proportion) had on others. Helpless laughter when others expected me to be offended has defused several incidents in my life.
It can’t be faked either. Unless it is a genuine reaction (sincerely accepting a real apology or chuckling at oneself) it only makes other people more uncomfortable rather than less. That is what is so special about what each of you wrote; both of you kept it real. Thanks.
Jay Jonson
March 31st, 2012
Good analysis of the kerfuffle. As a blog at glbtq.com said, the offensive comments provided a good opportunity for Mark Bingham’s mother to provide a “teachable moment.” Daly’s comments were not made out of malice, but they were ignorant. I found the comments of his female assistant more offensive because more gleeful and probably more sincere.
CPT_Doom
March 31st, 2012
“… it is true (like it or not) that – in general – a plane full of security officers and a plane full of gay men are likely to have different responses to a crazy pilot.”
This may be the most homophobic thing ever written on this blog, and quite frankly, I am offended. What justification could you have for such obvious stereotyping? Why wouldn’t a group of gay men act in their own best interest in the case of a crazed pilot, and what evidence do you have that the men on the actual Jet Blue flight in question were all straight?
Never mind Mark Bingham or the drag queens who fought back at Stonewall (and other moments in gay history). What about Oliver “Bill” Sipple, who stopped an assassination attempt on President Ford? Or what about the lesbian couple who saved 40 children during the horrific Norway massacre last year? I am sure there are many other instances of gay men and lesbians acting heroically, so how is either Daly’s joke or your support of its premise warranted?
And let’s add that Daly didn’t simply insult gay men, he did so in a high lilting voice, singing out “handle it,” as the response of a typical gay man (who wouldn’t want to break his nails – a comment made by his sidekick with which Daly agreed). Whether he’s “gay friendly” or not, he trafficked in the worst anti-gay stereotypes during his “joke,” and his apology misses the point entirely.
What Daly should have said was that he was going to reflect on the inner stereotypes we all hold – growing up as we do in a culture that demeans femininity and the men who seem the most feminine – to understand why he went where he did. It’s something we all have to do when we grapple with the issues of equality, and that is what we should be expecting of Daly or anyone else who insults our community.
Priya Lynn
March 31st, 2012
My reaction was similar to Timothy’s, I didn’t think this was a big deal. Having said that some of you have made good points about stereotyping but he has apologized so I hope the gay community will just drop it instead of pushing to burn him at the stake.
———————————–
Andrew, great story.
DL
March 31st, 2012
I think there were two subtle but very important differences from the way that an LGBT person or an honorary member of the gay-male community (like Kathy Griffin or Margaret Cho) would have told that joke, compared to the way Carson Daly did: First, it would have been specifically about the nelliest of the nelly, and, second, there would have been some sort of in-reference to signal that the person telling the joke was “one of us”. By steering towards from the first one by going to the tired stereotype of flower arranging Carson completely failed at the second, and getting the second one right would have made people a lot more willing to overlook the first one. Kathy or Margaret would have made the joke about being on their way to pride, too, or brought up some of the tougher gay subcultures as a contrast (drag queens, leather, etc.)
Reed
March 31st, 2012
Carson who?
Maurice Lacunza
March 31st, 2012
Carson who…that’s funny!
Andrew: great story you shared. I felt like I was there. That was a life changing moment and humor was the vehicle. I am so glad that it turned out that way. And, I hope that you maybe got a little lucky with one or two of those frat boys!
And finally: My written response the day it happened was: I think he was funny. And, I THOUGHT I READ YEARS AGO THAT CARSON WAS GAY. What? No one is able to confirm that? Help a brother out please.
Ryan
March 31st, 2012
No, Maurice. He’s not gay. As for funny, to each their own I guess, but the premise that gays are pathetic sissies who couldnt defend themselves in a fight is pretty offensive and illogical to most thinking people, not to mention a “joke” that’s been around since the silent film era.
Neil
March 31st, 2012
I feel a little sorry for Daly here. he ventured some facile attempt at humour more tired and effete than the stereotype he employed. It’s like watching David Brent from The Office gleefully putting his foot in his mouth and then seeing him squirm as the reality of his social embarrassment slowly sinks in.
Unlike Brent, however, Daly didn’t dig himself a bigger hole with ever more pathetic rationalisations. He’s probably sorry for three reasons, the offence caused, the damage to his reputation and having displayed witless inanity in a failed attempt at humour. Yes, I think we can move on.
Ryan
March 31st, 2012
Awesome analogy, Neil. This is a total David Brent situation.
grantdale
April 1st, 2012
We don’t know how to respond to “Oh, dude, yeah I can see that was offensive but I wasn’t trying to dis you, man, and I’m really sorry.”
“Thank-you. I appreciate that.”
Problem solved. Champagne for everyone!
It’s a fine line, but the underlying motivation does count for something. Those words could be said by Maggie Gallagher, and currently are being said on another matter, but are nothing close to being an apology; and shouldn’t be accepted as such. She’s only sorry for herself.
I enjoy a good stereotype in humour, but that’s what it’s got to be — humour, and not a dog whistle. Motivation. Meh, a lame joke that backfired. I don’t see it as malevolent.
And, actually, there’s nothing wrong with being a sissy. Or sissys WITH pom-poms for that matter. Sometimes humour does help spread that message, one of accepting inclusiveness even at the risk of using a stereotype. Life is too important to take seriously, as has been said.
Of course, note, thankfully, Daly does recognise just how close to snapping into aggression teh les-beans are. Just a simple misunderstanding away from a full-on brawl and bar-stools and pool cues flying everywhere. As We all know. So he’s not completely out of touch with the community.
/rolls eyes, shakes pom-poms.
Désirée
April 2nd, 2012
Having not followed the latest news cycle, I have no idea what the issue with the JetBlue flight was or the context of Carson Daly’s quote, which is presented here as if a) we all know about the JetBlue flight and b) we all have already heard the joke. Why are there no links in the post to fill in the gaps? Isn’t that one of the main benefits of blogs – to link to the relevant articles? You don’t need to give the uninformed all the background, but a link or 2 to the original news story helps.
Timothy Kincaid
April 2nd, 2012
Sorry Desiree,
You are right. I should have provided sources and i do usually do so I’m sure our international readers had no idea either.
I tried to select a good article right now but as it is one of those stories that hit the news cycle hard and persisted for days that I couldn’t really find the definitive article at this point. But google “JetBlue Pilot”and you’ll get a pretty good selection.
Priya Lynn
April 2nd, 2012
Desiree on a Jet Blue flight to Las Vegas the pilot started ranting to the co-pilot about religion and how Las Vegas was full of sin and then said “We are not going to Las vegas, we have to take a leap of faith”. The co-pilot tricked the pilot into leaving the cockpit to use the rear bathroom. The co-pilot then locked the cabin and changed the security codes. The Captain tried to get in, screaming and banging on the door, ranting about how the plane was going down and there was a bomb. The co-pilot got on the intercom and asked the passengers to subdue the pilot. A bunch of security personnel were on the plane and did so.
andrew
April 3rd, 2012
Wow. Thanks for the kind words folks. It was a big moment for me, too, which is probably why it’s so vivid. That straight friend – the one I was most afraid to come out to of all my friends – will probably be the one I ask to be my best man when California gets Prop 8 overturned and my partner and I can tie the knot.
For the record, Maurice, not all frat boys are worth the trouble. My first bf was a fraternity president (totally out, as well), and a total tool. And these guys on the ski trip? Well, as we like to tell straight boys, just because you’re a guy doesn’t mean I’m attracted to your ass. You have no idea how true that was in this case.
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