Box Turtle Bulletin
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobby“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobbyMay 30th, 2012
Throughout the Jewish Scriptures and into the Christian testament there is a theme: worship of G-d is conditional. Their god was not worshiped simply because he was powerful and demanded it, but because he deserved to be worshiped.
In the Exodus story (the Hebrew people flee slavery conditions in Egypt by a miraculous parting of the Red Sea which closes on the Pharoah’s army and drowns their pursuers), Moses praises God for delivering them:
I will sing to the Lord,
for he is highly exalted.
Both horse and driver
he has hurled into the sea.The Lord is my strength and my defense;
he has become my salvation.
He is my God, and I will praise him,
my father’s God, and I will exalt him.
In the 145th Psalm, attributed to David, it is God’s wonders and goodness that cause adoration
Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised,
and his greatness is unsearchable.
One generation shall commend your works to another,
and shall declare your mighty acts.
On the glorious splendor of your majesty,
and on your wondrous works, I will meditate.
They shall speak of the might of your awesome deeds,
and I will declare your greatness.
They shall pour forth the fame of your abundant goodness
and shall sing aloud of your righteousness.
The Lord is gracious and merciful,
slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
The Lord is good to all,
and his mercy is over all that he has made.
And closing out the black leather bound book, in the apocryphal Revelation, it is the act of creation that merits praise
Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.
While one might question whether the creation of all things is truly deserving of applause (one of the many problems which I have with apocrypha, especially the vision of John of Patmos), still there is present the notion that God is deserving of praise due to His actions or choices or attributes.
But I’m guessing the notion of God deserving praise totally bypassed Curtis Knapp, pastor of New Hope Baptist Church in Seneca, Kansas. Knapp is more of a “God said it, I believe it, that settles it” kinda guy. And Knapp’s god said that gay people should be executed:
Knapp went on to read from Leviticus 20: “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death.”
“They should be put to death,” Knapp declared. “‘Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them, no?’ — I’m saying the government should. They won’t, but they should.”
“You say, ‘Oh, I can’t believe you, you’re horrible. You’re a backwards neanderthal of a person.’ Is that what you’re calling scripture? Is God a neanderthal, backwards in his morality? Is it His word or not? If it’s His word, he commanded it. It’s His idea, not mine. And I’m not ashamed of it.”
“He said put them to death,” he continued. “Shall the church drag them in? No, I’m not say that. The church has not been given the power of the sort; the government has. But the government ought to [kill them]. You got a better idea? A better idea than God?”
Well, yes. Now that you ask, I do indeed have a better idea than the one proposed by Knapp’s god. Instead of executing people because they are attracted to the same sex, why don’t we become mature enough to question whether God is great, worthy to be praised, holy, or any other trite phrase that Knapp could babble?
Ultimately it comes down to this:
* Either our understanding of sexuality, morality, decency, a functional society, and the way to treat people is severely flawed,
* or Knapp’s theology is severely flawed,
* or that there is a horrific monster named God who delights in torment and is most definitely not worthy of praise.
Regardless of one’s particular beliefs about homosexuality, I think most readers here would agree that Knapp’s theology is not one that reflects the will of God. Some see the Levitical prohibitions as needing consideration of context and culture and do not read Scripture as literal. Others might find that grace abounds and that Christ’s declaration that all Law is subject to the command to treat one’s neighbor the way one wants to be treated would reverse any command to execute gay people. And, of course, others will see Knapp’s theology flawed because it includes the presumption that deities exist.
But there are many many people out there who, as Paul put it, “think like a child” when it comes to Scripture. And if it’s written right there in 21st Century English, then it must be the divine word of God. “Is it His word or not?”
Oddly enough, people like Knapp are not really the problem. They are a small minority and if responded to intelligently, they have little influence. The problem is Christians who do not respond to Knapp and leave his words the only words in the vacuum.
Surely the vast majority of American Christians do not think that the government should execute gays. But if they don’t say so – outside their pulpit and where people can hear them – then this becomes the defacto position of the faith.
All the nice neighborliness in the world, all of the loaning of lawn mowers, all of the “you’re such a nice couple” will not rebut what Knapp says. Unless Christians tell us that they absolutely do NOT agree with Knapp (and loan the lawn mower, of course), then we have no reason to believe otherwise. Yes, actions speak louder than words; but the words have to be said as well.
And when some very lovely Presbyterian invites the lesbian couple next door to join them for Christmas Eve service, they really have no one else to blame if the response is, “Bya-ha-ha-ha! You’ve got to be kidding! No way do I want anything to do with a religion that wants to execute me!”
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Mother Jan+
May 30th, 2012
Timothy, I share your anger at Knapp and his ilk. But putting “Christians” on one side and “lesbians” (or gay men or bi or transgender folk and their allies) on the opposite side is a false dichotomy. There are too many openly LGBT Christians, lay and ordained, who’ve been vocal and visible both in and out of their denominations for many years; surely you’ve heard of Bishop Gene Robinson, among others? I’d hate to see all our efforts dismissed as entirely inadequate because a couple of Biblically-illiterate YouTube preachers are trending on Twitter, or something. Give us a break: We’re dancing as fast as we can.
Elaygee
May 30th, 2012
[tk: Comment removed for being off topic]
Timothy Kincaid
May 30th, 2012
Mother Jan,
Perhaps I incorrectly assume that readers know my basic philosophies. As a Christian myself and an ardent defender of the faith, I tend to see myself as entitled to criticize. And lately my criticism is directed towards my own people: moderate or liberal Christians and others who do not take scripture as the literal transcribed words of God.
I have no complaints about the efforts of those seeking to change their denominations, other than this: stop being so damn internal and quiet. And stop being so charitable to those who claim the mantle of Good News but champion the cause of the Father of Lies.
I don’t complain about the speed of your dancing, but could ya turn up the lights and televise the damn dance, for God’s sake. And yes, I do mean literally for God’s sake … and for the sake of those who will never attend a synod or national convention or presbytery meeting. For those who only hear Knapp and don’t know you.
Mother Jan+
May 30th, 2012
We could have a looooong thread about the failings of national communications departments of mainline denominations, Timothy (I used to work for one: q.e.d.)! That said, which would you click thru first: some raving ‘phobe encouraging his toddler to sing “Ain’t No Homos Going to Heaven” while waving a machete, or a clip of +Gene being his nice self?…Yeah, I wanna see the moral train wreck too. Until Google changes their algorithm, good luck with that. As an old media hand from way back, I hate to say it, but the televised dancing doesn’t convince anybody who isn’t already on board the gospel train. Ultimately it’s the lawn-mower loaning that really changes hearts and minds, and none of us Christians loan enough lawnmowers these days. YMMV, of course. Blessings!
Nick Thiwerspoon
May 30th, 2012
We blame Muslims when one of their extremists says something equally revolting and the moderates don’t speak out against him (it’s always a him!). Why is it not the same with Christians? Silence is assent.
Timothy Kincaid
May 30th, 2012
Gene – and I love him – is boring as hell.
What I want is a video of Pastor Whoever calling out Knapp and saying – with evangelical fervor – that Knapp is going to hell. He’s preaching the words of the Devil and he’s going to burn for it along with all who follow him.
(okay that may not exactly be my theology but I damn well want to hear it anyway).
I want something that isn’t nicey-nice. I want something that calls this guy evil. He is, you know. I want fire and brimstone, waving the bible, pentecostal fervor.
The problem with moderates and liberals is that they are too decent to get all crazy and radical and too kind to slap down the raving loons who do.
Timothy Kincaid
May 30th, 2012
(but yeah, we could use some more lawn mower loaning as well)
Priya Lynn
May 30th, 2012
Pastor Knapp is evil and if there was a hell and a just and loving god he’d most certainly be going there.
Priya Lynn
May 30th, 2012
Actually, I take half of that back. If there was a just and loving god I don’t believe he/she would eternally torture anyone for any reason.
Muscat
May 30th, 2012
“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt…†– Bertrand Russell
Mother Jan+
May 30th, 2012
Hmmm. Well, I could put on my collar and do that, although I’m probably as boring as +Gene, and wouldn’t it be better with an apoplectic overweight white guy instead of a relatively sane, somewhat overweight white Lesbian? I mean, I’ve been posting Romans 2:1-11 (look it up) on those guys’ Facebook pages. And Ezekiel 16:49 (my favorite: did you know Ronald Reagan, both George Bushes and all of the Republican Party are Sodomites? It says so in the Bible!) But lemme think about it. There are production values to consider…and NO SNAKES. You heah?
Hyhybt
May 30th, 2012
I don’t know… it would certainly feel good to hear that, but it also would draw more attention to someone who doesn’t deserve it, for the purpose of spreading a message that most people willing to hear know already.
Also… while it’s certainly not the same as having a real audience, I’ve tried the “we’re not all like that” path in conversation many times. The response has NEVER been “oh, I didn’t realize that, thanks for pointing that out.” Instead it ranges from “of course not, I know that, quit treating me like an idiot” to “if you really meant that, you’d remove Leviticus from the Bible.” (Or, of course, “who cares what somebody who believes in sky pixies says anyway”)
That proves nothing, of course…
tristram
May 30th, 2012
Timothy – check out the billboard pic that JMG posted this afternoon. It might help a bit.
[tk: edited to include link to pic]
Timothy Kincaid
May 30th, 2012
Tristram,
Now that’s what I wanna see a whole lot more of
:)
Palmer
May 30th, 2012
Actually faulting Christians? I am amazed. And no digs at atheist or agnostic gays and/or Democrats! Mostly clear and succinct writing, too. Maybe some of the deserved criticism has finally sunk in.
Christopher
May 30th, 2012
God. Deserves to be praised…
So… what’s he done for you lately?
Timothy Kincaid
May 30th, 2012
Priya Lynn,
I think that a lot more Christians agree with you about hell than you would suspect.
You might find this Pew report interesting reading. I haven’t scrutinized the methods or the samples so I can’t give you a take on its accuracy. (I do find it odd that about 20% of “atheists” believe in God or a universal spirit. But that may be in part due to self-identifying atheists being a small minority of Americans or confusion about the terms.)
Priya Lynn
May 30th, 2012
Timothy, I am aware that significant numbers of christians find the idea of a literal hell inconsistent with a loving and just god and they claim the biblical references to hell are metaphorical. I don’t find the claim that the references are metaphorical to be convincing however.
Timothy Kincaid
May 30th, 2012
I’m not trying to convert you, just sharing info.
Did you check out the report? It has some fascinating findings. This “Christian Nation” doesn’t exactly believe what Tony Perkins thinks that it does.
San Diego Rob
May 30th, 2012
I wonder when he will start calling for the death of all daughters who have had sex before marriage and or first husband.
Priya Lynn
May 30th, 2012
Timothy, I didn’t think you were trying to convert me, I just was saying I already knew that.
Timothy (TRiG)
May 30th, 2012
Or, as Fred Clark reminds us in the second section of this post: All right then, I’ll go to Hell.
It is a moral position.
TRiG.
revchicoucc
May 30th, 2012
Let me see if I understand.
You want some mainline, liberal, progressive Christian pastor like me, who is openly gay and has been working for LGBT diginity and equality for over 30 years, to organize a group for Christians who hate Christians who hate gays.
Because unless we say we hate Christians who hate gays with the same fervant tone of voice, dramatic gestures, and hateful language that the Christians who hate gays use then that proves the Christians who hate Christians who hate gays aren’t really Christian enough.
Well, I’ll have to think about why I would want that much hate in my life or in the life of my church.
In the meantime, I have a meeting tomorrow with our mayor and city manager to discuss the inadequate response of our local police department to recent anti-gay hate crimes. Six other LGBT folks will be there. I organized it and they’ve asked me to lead the conversation because, I don’t know, I’m not hateful enough I guess.
Which local elected official is going to be meeting with Mr. Knapp to discuss his public policy concerns?
JesusIsLord
May 30th, 2012
The scripture Leviticus 20: “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death.â€
Is from the LAW of God. The Law was given by God through Moses.For the knowlege of sin.So in fact,We are not to have a death sentence for these sins in our world.Because then we would have to kill all liers,theives,drunks,fornicators,homo sexuals,and everyone who sins..But the bible clearly says that,The wages of sin is death.But the gift of God is eternal life.Through Jesus Christ.So basicly,all who reject Gods mercy(The gospel of Jesus Christ) Are condenmed and unnder the cure of sin.Which carries the death sentence.But God has offered ALL who will receive it a PARDON for that manditory scentence of death.And offers them eternal life.Which any pardon there is conditions.And the condition to Gods pardon,is that you believe Him. So the bible does not just condemn homosexual sin.It condemns ALL sin!
Priya Lynn
May 30th, 2012
“Jesus”, you can call gayness a sin if you want, but its not in anyway a wrongdoing. Gayness is harmless and thus moral. Your attempted spiritual assault is potentially harmful and is therefore immoral.
Timothy Kincaid
May 30th, 2012
rev chico… maybe not hate… maybe just some righteous indignation.
If we believe that God is righteous, then why do we concede the field to the nutjobs.
Timothy Kincaid
May 30th, 2012
JesusIsLord
You’ve typed a lot of words. But I don’t think you’ve thought about about them much.
I wonder… just what do you think that “the death sentence” you discuss is for those who, say, don’t believe in Jesus?
Could it be eternal torture? Do you think that is a fair sentence for the crime of “not believing in Jesus”? (I’m not asking what God said, I’m asking if you think that is fair.)
If not, then isn’t your Jesus – the one you believe is handing out eternal torture for disbelief – pretty much an asshole?
Dan
May 30th, 2012
JesusIsLord, your interpretation is right on every point except one. The word translated “detestable act” in Leviticus 20:18 (Hebrew toevah) actually means “unclean act.” This word doesn’t refer to a sin or moral wrong. So, homosexuality isn’t a sin. To be completely consistent with the Word of God, you would have to remove homosexuality from the list of sins in your post.
Timothy asks an interesting question, but I’m specifically addressing what the Bible literally says.
StraightGrandmother
May 30th, 2012
“What I want is a video of Pastor Whoever calling out Knapp and saying – with evangelical fervor – that Knapp is going to hell. He’s preaching the words of the Devil and he’s going to burn for it along with all who follow him. ”
My thoughts exactly!!!
KZ
May 30th, 2012
Why do fundamentalists continue to quote passages from Leviticus? There are many other laws that apply to heterosexual behavior, diet, the proper protocol for sacrificing a ram at the altar, and purity when in comes to mildewy clothes. If these other laws a broken the culprit(s) could face the death penalty. But I rarely hear these idiot pastors quote them. It’s bull____.
There has been too much of this kind of talk this month: killing gays, starving them in an electrified fence, getting a four-year-old out on the pulpit to sing “Ain’t No Homos Gonna Make It To Heaven” How do these idiots think we’ll react, that we all will come crawling through the doors of their churches, and beg forgiveness with tears in our eyes?
Lucrece
May 30th, 2012
This is very No True Scotsman. Their interpretation of the Bible is no lesser than the one held by moderate Christians (those who rationalize/justify/apologize for the text in order for it to stay relevant and maintain the warmth and safety of the culture of their ancestors and current community).
The Bible is a scrambled mess of contradictions, an outright schizophrenic collection of thoughts. You can argue anything out of that Bible, and you’ll be no less a Christian. There is no “bad/false Christian”.
Ben in Oakland
May 31st, 2012
Kz-the swear toyour question is here.
The new testaments for me.
The old testament is for you.
God why?
May 31st, 2012
I’ve read your article, in its whole & the comments. God is Supreme but He’s not a Tyrant, his laws exist within nature, I mean they’re Logic. Of course, once the Supreme had laws, that when the Supreme’s Prince came added Grace(in fact, he didn’t remove). Because S.Prince added Grace, there were some changes(pivotal of his mission, but not exaggerative.)He did remove laws that exceeded the race(Israel)among nations of the Earth. I surely think that his Grace did not remove such law, it may have lessen it. Throughout the moderation of time, the philosophies change. My conclusion is, it’s absurdly ridiculous to think of the sort, either of them: Eliminate or Accept one as a christian.
OldBaldGuy
May 31st, 2012
Oh, ARGH!
IMHO and personal experience: effing HELL is the effing problem. Some Christians are just more outspoken about wishing you were there; but even the ones with the toned down rhetoric will still foresee your eternal roast – if not for the crime of being gay, then for the crime of being alive and born human, since according to their pathological theology the default setting for all people is “scum bucket that should be burned.”
Now cue all the gay-friendly Christians who threaten hell to the hell-threateners; and even though in anger I may appreciate the sentiment it frustrates me no end that it makes you sound just as insane as them. Which is why I frequently state to Christians that just because YOU are gay-friendly it does NOT automatically make you my friend.
Sheesh- I am so effing ANGRY at the whole effing lot of you – the one post above that makes any sense to me is revchicoucc’s.
Hell. Hell, hell, effing effing hell. The convenient little dogma that turns a deity into The Ultimate Cosmic Bully and allows you to freely express your contempt for another totally conscience-free.
But what do I know, I’m just the old bald asshole who has lost all perspective, ranting on in a post-Christian, ex-born-again PTSD rage (can’t count the number of times I have been bluntly told to my face that I’m going to hell, or that someone has wished I would get there quickly).
The sooner everyone shuts the hell up about effing hell the sooner we can move the rest of this struggle out of the irrational fundamentalist swamp.
IMHO.
Meadowlark
May 31st, 2012
J.I.L., did you read the comment thread, for heaven’s sake? It’s laughable that you think you need to provide a primer on [one limited version of] Christian theology to the pastors, believers, and even the unbelievers here.
Or I guess it would be laughable if it weren’t so dangerous. Here you are, proving Timothy’s point.
Snowman
May 31st, 2012
In my opinion (an opinion based on lots of study, btw) the whole idea of a literal fire-and-brimstone hell is bullshit someone made up to threaten people with, to ensure conformity and maintain social control. It’s really not in the Bible, the Lake of Fire from Revelation applies only to a specific group of people. (worse, even who that group of people i.e. those who take the “Mark of the Beat” is, is up for debate!) The modern Christian understanding of hell has more to do with Dante’s Inferno than anything that’s in the damn Bible.
I believe in God, but I don’t believe in hell. Jesus talked about hades (the same Underworld that the Greeks and the Romans believed in) and Sheol, which was where the souls of the truly wicked went to cease to exist. The modern idea of hell is comparatively recent…
In the dark ages & middle ages, hell was percieved to be a cold place, for example.
Most of the modern ideas about the devil date from the dark ages also, and the Church stealing lots of ideas from Pagan religions to pervert into a belief about the devil. Horns and a tail, etc. seem to have been taken from the greco-roman god Pan.
I think, honestly, that some people believe more in hell than they do in heaven. Trouble is, all this stuff about hell is bullshit.
Snowman
May 31st, 2012
Oops that’s “Mark of the Beast*” Damn typos.
Priya Lynn
May 31st, 2012
Snowman said “In my opinion (an opinion based on lots of study, btw) the whole idea of a literal fire-and-brimstone hell is bullshit…It’s really not in the Bible”.
*rolls eyes*
Oh please. This is why christians who don’t believe in a literal hell annoy me as much as those that do. The one’s that don’t believe in a literal hell can’t just say so, they’ve got to try and whitewash the bible and pretend it doesn’t say what it obviously does, just like with it condoning slavery.
Timothy Kincaid
May 31st, 2012
Prius Lynn,
There is very little that the bible “obviously does” say. The beliefs about Hell are no more “obviously” laid out in the bible than are the trinity, transubstantiation, or snake handling.
To those who do not accept a literalist reading of the English translations, your insistence on certain points makes you come across as dogmatic as the Christians who do the same.
Priya Lynn
May 31st, 2012
Yes I understand Timothy. For christians uncomfortable with the bigotry, injustice, errors, contradictions, and cruelty the bible ascribes to their god it is necessary that there is very little that the bible “obviously does” say.
If I was a Christian I’d also be ashamed of what the bible obviously says and probably want to deny it with tortured logic, VERY VERY careful reading, ignoring/denying some passages, claiming the common meaning of words doesn’t apply, quote mining, and reading into other passages things that are not there.
Timothy Kincaid
May 31st, 2012
Prius Lynn, believe whatever you like. I’m not going to debate Scripture with the Scripturally illiterate.
Priya Lynn
May 31st, 2012
Also, as far as the trinity and transubstantiation go there aren’t several clear references to them that would allow one to believe they are in the bible as is with the many references to hell.
As far as snake handling goes, that one reference is clear and obvious, “They can handle snakes and drink poison and it won’t harm them”. A pastor in the states recently died taking that one literally. As I said in my previous comment, you’d really have to torture the logic and read very carefully to get something other than the literal meaning out of that one.
And yet Christians have no problem pretty much universally believing in the world being fallen because of Adam and Eve and everyone inheriting their guilt and thus being in need of a savior or the new testament being under grace rather than under “the law” and many old testament laws no longer applying even though nowhere in the bible does it directly say such things.
No, christians have no problem believing the bible says things that it doesn’t specify directly and disbelieving things it does specify directly. The only way one can discern what the bible says to christians is pretty much to ask them what they want to believe it says.
Priya Lynn
May 31st, 2012
Timothy said “Prius Lynn, believe whatever you like. I’m not going to debate Scripture with the Scripturally illiterate.”.
Ah, yes, the appeal to authority logical fallacy – good one.
Timothy Kincaid
May 31st, 2012
No. I’m not appealing to authority.
I just mean that you don’t know enough about Scripture to make it a meaningful conversation. You don’t have the knowledge – nor do you seem to think that you need it. You don’t actually consider points or measure positions. You don’t discuss translation or original intent. You don’t compare apparent contradictions or look for themes.
Instead, like some itinerant backwoods preacher you just say “the Bible says” and “Christians believe” and the rest is assertions and accusations and insinuations.
Rebutting this isn’t worth my time.
Priya Lynn
May 31st, 2012
Whatever you say, boss.
God why?
May 31st, 2012
Rebutting this isn’t worth my time. I start with this phrase to make a focal point of my message. We’re talking about homos-Christians,further on is Off-Topic. Hell & Fallen age are completely Off-Topic.The questions are: Will we eliminate them? Will we accept them as Christians? Will we erase their traces from the church but let them live? Or, Will we come up with a punishment for them? Remember all Off-Topic discussions should have its own article. I, myself, stands for the 4th, come up with a punishment, of course it’s not death or lasting death. Why?, take a look at my first comment. I forgot to mention this before, GOD is singular, it does not have an ‘s.
Priya Lynn
May 31st, 2012
Another power hungry bigot pretending to be a god.
Timothy Kincaid
May 31st, 2012
“God why?”,
Your punctuation and running everything together is so confusing that I can’t understand what you are trying to say.
God why?
June 1st, 2012
I’m trying to say it is wise & the best to punish these people, rather than eliminate or letting them alive. In that way, there won’t be problems.
Désirée
June 1st, 2012
I agree. we should punish and eliminate all the people who want to kill gay people. In this way, there would be no problems. Once all the homo-haters have been removed from polite society, the rest of us can live in peace. How’s that sound to you GW?
God why?
June 1st, 2012
I do agree with this suggestion, we should punish & douse all the homo-haters. Would it appease this sexual antagony? In fact, having a world 2-sided sxl.orientation, each occupying their own world without offenses. Would it create the ”SEXUAL UTOPIA”? What ”Pivotal Subjects” of our society would be banished? We need to think deeper within, larger through the area. Masters of the Earth, we shall come up with a reasonable long lasting solution.
Hyhybt
June 1st, 2012
GW: Sure, because life is so much better when everybody kills everyone they don’t like.
Priya Lynn
June 1st, 2012
I think someone is off their medication.
God why?
June 2nd, 2012
How would the world be with such philosophy? I meant peace not war, an utopia not an hell. Please be reasonable for the next answer.
Hyhybt
June 2nd, 2012
I was being sarcastic by taking your own suggestion to its logical, and too-oft tried, conclusion.
Hyhybt
June 2nd, 2012
Pardon. Not your direct suggestion, but one to which you responded “I do agree with this.”
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