Box Turtle Bulletin
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News and commentary about the anti-gay lobbyJuly 2nd, 2012
I returned last night from Minneapolis/St. Paul just in time to avoid the predicted 100 degree temperatures for today. Yes, I came home to Tucson where it regularly tops 100 degrees on a cool day during the summer, but we have that proverbial dry heat which makes 105 in the shade a pleasant day. The Twin Cities’ 40% humidity is not exactly Gulf Coast-caliber, but it was enough to wipe out this poor soul who has lost the ability to cope with anything north of 15%.
I came back from the Exodus conference with new friends, new insights, and new experiences. Just ask former vice president Randy Thomas about green smoothies sometime. Made from spinach.
Lots of spinach.
I want to thank Exodus president Alan Chambers for encouraging me to attend the conference, and for everyone who offered a warm welcome and honored me with the privilege of getting to know them better. I also want to thank the person who, without knowing anything about me, asked if he could pray over me in the auditorium on Friday (or maybe it was Saturday? The days tend to run together). I didn’t catch his name, but I thought it was a very generous gesture and I really appreciate it.
I have a ton of material to go through. Putting it all together in a cogent series of posts will take a while. Please bear with me as I ask for your patience. I expect that the first post will probably show up about a week from now. I hope the wait will be worth it.
But I will go head and share one anecdote. For background, I grew up Catholic and I was a rather devout one. Evangelical culture, for the most part, was something I saw on television. I wouldn’t say I experienced culture shock at Exodus — I mean, they’re Christians, not aliens. But I was caught off guard once or twice during the worship portions of the program, with the hands raised and the bodies swaying — these weren’t the kinds of things one would ordinarily expect to see at St. Mary of the Annunciation. And so on the very first night of the conference, when the president of Northwestern College gave his welcoming remarks and offered a prayer, he didn’t even get through the first sentence of his prayer when a hand shot up in front of me. My first thought: “Dude! This is not the time to be asking questions!”
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Lindoro Almaviva
July 2nd, 2012
I can tell you didn’t grow up with Charismatic aunta and uncles, otherwise it eould have not shocked you one bit.
tim
July 2nd, 2012
[insert rant here]
I live in Minneapolis and frequently take trips to Phoenix and Vegas. The whole “dry heat” argument is complete bullshit. Hot is hot. Regardless of “humidity” (i put that in quotes because most in the southwest have no idea what humidity really is – especially those from Tucson).
[end rant]
Vira
July 2nd, 2012
“I also want to thank the person who, without knowing anything about me, asked if he could pray over me in the auditorium on Friday (or maybe it was Saturday? The days tend to run together). I didn’t catch his name, but I thought it was a very generous gesture and I really appreciate it.”
Yeah, this is an easy gesture to confuse. It’s not so much ‘generous’, as ‘aggressively passive-aggressive’. We’re gonna do this thing ‘for’ (to?) you, whether you want it or not, to prove how right and righteous we are. Coercive prayer of this type is sort of the precursor to ‘reparative therapy’, and the two concepts come from the same dark place.
“For background, I grew up Catholic and I was a rather devout one. Evangelical culture, for the most part, was something I saw on television.”
This explains your interpretation.
TampaZeke
July 2nd, 2012
Hear, hear Vira!
Timothy (TRiG)
July 2nd, 2012
I’ve never had someone offer to “pray over me”. I’d find it quite disconcerting. And rude. And, perhaps because I spend quite a bit of my online time with Pagans, I’d be somewhat troubled by the ethics of it. Neo-Pagans spend a lot of time thinking carefully about the ethics of their spellcasting. Christians generally don’t. (And yes, invoking a deity to perform an action is spellcasting, by definition.)
TRiG.
Randy
July 2nd, 2012
“… dude this isn’t a time for questions.” HA! that’s awesome. I am also glad you discerned the person who prayed for you had honest intent. Some people can get weird with that kind of stuff like others mentioned but many times, in my experience at the Exodus conference, they are usually genuinely only wanting to be a blessing.
I also think it is fantastic you were there and able to witness Brenna Kate forcing me to drink her green hippie smoothie concoction thing. Didn’t it look awful? It wasn’t that bad tasting though.
I have already started posting basic posts about the general observations I had throughout the conference but the more thoughtful ones will come a little later. I will also have more videos in the next week or so (including the green smoothie party.)
Jim, there is something to be said about meeting someone face to face to bring a deeper and more authentic context to the relationship (such as it is.) I didn’t ever *not* like you but just sort of saw you as yet another one in the the crowd of gay blogs looking for a reason to criticize Exodus. <–not necessarily a bad thing … I simply didn't invest in following your writings (unless something really snagged my attention) as a result.
Now, you could totally bash Exodus, the conference, me, whenever you do actually blog about your experience. I don't know you that well BUT you seem like an honest soul … who likes to laugh at green smoothie parties ::: grin :::
And that goes a long way in my book.
BTW, BTB is now on my RSS reader list. I look forward to seeing what you have to say in general and about the conference. I may not agree of course but now that I have met you I feel more invested in hearing what you have to say.
Kenny
July 2nd, 2012
Hey…wished I could have met you while you were there. My wife and I (and our 2 year old daughter were there).
would have been great to have a sit down talk with you. Looking forward in reading what you have processed with all the info you took in.
Peace,
kenny
Jim Burroway
July 2nd, 2012
Wow people!
Lindoro Almaviva:
The operative phrase was “caught off-guard once or twice.” Never shocked. Don’t worry. They were people, not green-headed monsters.
Tim:
When I left Tucson, the temperature was 105 and normal. Not much complaining around here. When I arrived in Minneapolis on Wednesday, the temperature was 95, the weather service issued a heat alert, and Minnesotans were complaining. I grew up along the Ohio River (high humidity,) lived for 15 years in Dallas (medium humidity) and 12 years in Tucson (low humidity). Believe me, I’ve lived through it all.
Vera:
There was no confusion. The guy was trying to be nice. You weren’t there, so I’ll explain what happened. We talked briefly before he offered to pray, he asked first, I gave him permission, and his prayer was general to what he thought would be a help for me. It was obvious from this prayer that he didn’t know who I was, and it had nothing to do with “reparative therapy,” or anything of the sort.
And if you think that, as a Catholic, I can’t spot coercive prayer or passive-aggression, then you have obviously never met a nun or a Catholic grandmother. Just saying’.
Timothy (TRiG):
I don’t find offers of prayer rude at all. It’s the way people express concern in ways they can understand. That it had little to do with my experience has no effect on me one way or another. My decision to allow him to pray over me — I could easily have refused — was my way of recognizing his offer for what it was. He interpreted my sitting down through a worship service as a sign that I was feeling down and he wanted to encourage me and help me feel better. (In truth, I was just exhausted; the conference, like all conferences, keeps to a pretty fast-paced schedule.) I was touched by his concern and grateful.
I look at it this way. Sometimes someone gives you a present that you’ve always wanted. In those cases it comes quite naturally to say thank you. Other times someone gives you a present that you have no idea what you’re going to do with. You might even be inclined to map out if there’s enough room to stow it in the back shelf of the guest room closet. But even then, you say thank you. I can’t say that this guy’s present fell in either category, but either way I appreciated his concern.
(As for spell-casting, I would only fear spells if I actually believed in them. I don’t, and so it doesn’t make a hill of beans to me if someone thinks carefully about the ethics of spellcasting or not. Or whether they go through with the spell or not. To me, it’s like thinking about the ethics of crossword-puzzling.)
Randy.
We’ve had our differences I think, but I’ve also thought that you were (are) a very creative and funny person. Funny people always score extra points in my book. I meant it when I said you reminded me of my friend Kip. He’s funny too, but in a different funny way. I’m glad to have met you. I don’t intend to “bash” Exodus. I never did. I praised Exodus where Exodus took positive steps. And In some of the upcoming posts I will again. In some I won’t. And in some, whether I praise or bash will likely be in the eye of the beholder. Sort of like some of the comments this uncontroversial (or so I thought) post has already generated.
And by the way, I don’t know what green smoothies are supposed to do, but I’m still gay. Just thought I’d pass that on… ;-)
Kenny,
Processing is the right word. There was a lot to take in. Sorry we missed each other. I probably should have worn a funny hat or something.
JesterKatz
July 2nd, 2012
@ TRiG
I believe it’s because they put in so much trust (faith?) in God, that they believe their God will do what’s right; he is God after all. Though they seem to hope God will do what their wants are. Quite a coincidence….
Randy
July 2nd, 2012
Well, drat! I guess green smoothie therapy didn’t work. You know, while I don’t self-identify as gay … the green smoothie didn’t make me any “straight”er either. Thanks for telling me about Kip and for the encouragement as well.
Vira
July 3rd, 2012
@ JB: A couple of thoughts: 1) Maybe it’s a quibble, but I don’t think you can assert that there was no confusion if the gentleman didn’t know who you were.
2) While you’re correct that I wasn’t present for this particular instance, I’ve lived a lifetime of this kind of ‘niceness’, and I understand both the character of it, and the underlying mentality that motivates it. It’s not “nice”, no matter how sweetly the person doing the praying smiles and calls you ‘Brother’ or ‘Hon’.
And do you suppose that would’ve been the end of it, if you’d had the resolve to tell the gentleman “No, I’d just as soon you didn’t.” Quite understandably, being a guest, you did not respond this way. But I have had Christians tell me that they would pray for me, even after I’ve explicitly asked them not to. It’s the same kind of mentality that motivates Mormons to baptize Jews posthumously, and not altogether unlike that of a rapist.
That said, I’m glad you weren’t offended by it, or made to feel unwelcome, and that you yourself were gracious enough to be graciously received. You are doubtless a better man than I am.
Vic Mansfield
July 3rd, 2012
I continue to be amazed at your openness, desire for balance, fairness, and grace. Attending an Exodus conference?
I look forward to reading your reflections.
Kaleo
July 3rd, 2012
As a bible school graduate, former evangelical missionary and survivor of ex-gay therapy, it is sometimes hard to look back at those days with objectivity. There is so much passion wrapped up in life’s experiences.
Walking through JB’s attendance at the conference brings up a few of those things I miss about that culture . . . but much more so solidifies the reasons I left. Living life as a healthy man who no longer feels conflicted about being gay is one of the greatest gifts I’ve allowed myself to accept. Teaching myself to love those who preach against that wholeness has been a much longer journey, but that too is slowly happening.
JB -thanks for sharing your experiences. It is appreciated.
Richard Rush
July 3rd, 2012
If I ask someone NOT to pray over me, would it have the unintended consequence of conveying to them that I believe prayers somehow amount to more than a hill of beans? If I say, “okay, thank you,” doesn’t that convey the same thing? Maybe the best answer is, “okay, whatever.”
Steve
July 3rd, 2012
“I’ll pray for you” is NOT friendly. It’s Christianese for “Fuck you”
Jim Burroway
July 3rd, 2012
I’ll pray for you Steve.
Richard Rush
July 3rd, 2012
Randy said, “I didn’t ever *not* like you but just sort of saw you as yet another one in the the crowd of gay blogs looking for a reason to criticize Exodus.”
Just to clarify: Until very recently, the only looking that has ever been required was for a reason NOT to criticize Exodus. And the jury is still out on the “recently” part.
iDavid
July 3rd, 2012
I think it’s important to recognize that any group no matter it’s size, can have extreme effects with a common goal. As with any group, one must discern if the goal is of merit. Everyone is good at their base, but far too often that energy gets transfered towards something confused and conflicted.
Getting closer to Christ is a noble intent and many can rally around one another with much affection. When it gets turned towards negative consequences, it is quite a different story.
It is IMO, highly unwise to turn against nature in Christ’s name, it is a grand slap to the face of Christ himself when such misperceptions flourish. As a man of Christ, righting the wrongs is what he preached. Unfortunately this is not happening, and in fact is quite the opposite.
Does Christ still live the sinner who confuses the masses? Of course. But it is also our job to do his work in righting wrongs, not celebrating them.
God and Jesus are two entirely separate ideologies. Though they may meet on some issues, this is not one of them.
But as has been said many times, hate the sin not the sinner
iDavid
July 3rd, 2012
…and for that, you are a great example Jim. I would very much like to hear how you separate the “wheat from the chaff” in your upcoming posts. Glad you had a good time Jim. Thx for your covering of this conference.
Timothy Kincaid
July 3rd, 2012
Jim, welcome to the culture of my religious heritage.
But if a little hand raising was surprising, you’re no where near ready for speaking in tongues, dancing in the aisles, or being slain in the spirit.
:)
Jim Burroway
July 3rd, 2012
Are you kidding? THAT would have been something to write about! ;)
Steve
July 3rd, 2012
>”But as has been said many times, hate the sin not the sinner”
And as has been said many times, that phrase is complete nonsense and not any way better than “hate the sinner”. In fact, there is no difference between the two, since being gay is not behavior. It’s just a way for Christians to feel better about their bigotry and hatred, while changing nothing. When you hate an integral part of someone’s self, you may as well be honest and admit that you hate the person.
Priya Lynn
July 3rd, 2012
Richard said “If I ask someone NOT to pray over me, would it have the unintended consequence of conveying to them that I believe prayers somehow amount to more than a hill of beans? If I say, “okay, thank you,†doesn’t that convey the same thing?”.
That’s exactly how I feel about it.
Richard said “Maybe the best answer is, “okay, whatever.â€.
Yes, something along that lines, but I need something that conveys more indifference. Maybe if I just ignore them.
Timothy said “But if a little hand raising was surprising, you’re no where near ready for speaking in tongues, dancing in the aisles, or being slain in the spirit.”.
I experienced all that in the basement of the Catholic church at “prayer meetings” my parents dragged me to.
Sonia
July 3rd, 2012
If I had only realized you were in the same room with me in the “Millenials” workshop, I would have been so delighted to meet you in person! Over the years I’ve been reading your blog as time permits because I appreciate your thoughtful and fair-minded approach. In that workshop I was seated at back to the right, and was the “scientist” who thanked the speaker for the insights she had shared. I very much look forward to meeting you in the future!
iDavid
July 3rd, 2012
@Steve
Please let me clarify in this case how I meant “hate the sin not the sinner”. Homosexuality is a natural aspect of the human race as are it’s behaviors, and therefore is not a sin, as sin is always connected to some aspect of fear mongering. The fear Exodus espouses is fear of it’s own sexual nature. That is the sin as it is encased in fear. So when I say “hate the sin, not the sinner” in this case, I am saying, “hate the sin” of fear and hate towards one’s sexuality, and “love the sinner” while he figures it out.
So I hate the sin that Exodus promotes – the sin of hatred and fear of their own sexual nature – but love them, the sinner, as they go through recognizing their errors and return their natural homo/bi sexuality to the light of Christ mindedness of grace and acceptance, healing their conflicted thoughts.
I feel that then and only then will they exit sexual conflict and experience peace in thought word and deed, and no longer feel the need to group together in the name of Christ to change the unchangeable, a thing Christ would himself would never do.
Does that make sense?
Jim Burroway
July 3rd, 2012
Hi Sonia,
That workshop was pretty good, I thought, one of the few where I think there could be genuine common ground. I got to know Katie afterward and she and her family are really great people.
The thought occurs to me that I should have been live-tweeting where I was going — “Going to Millenials workshop,” “Going to coffee shop,” etc. It would have been a good opportinity for people to find me if they wanted to. I never really thought of that.
I doubt that I’ll go again next year, but I’ll keep that in mind in the future.
Bose in St. Peter MN
July 3rd, 2012
I really appreciate you investing yourself in this, Jim, and look forward to hearing your observations.
I had congenial conversations with Randy, Alan, and even Regina Griggs at Love Won Out near DC in 2006. It was good connecting with them after assorted online interactions with them spanning back to 1999 or so.
Forging ongoing personal connections with ex-gay leaning folks has often been a challenging thing, in my experience. There have been friendly exchanges in which it seemed attempts were being made to hear and respect my life and perspectives. There were also times when worthwhile conversations flipped to me feeling shut out. In particular, me not being a recognized as a Christian by them has seemed to limit conversations. Or, friendly personal discussion was followed shortly by public writing that wrote off openly gay folks as a threat or the enemy.
So, besides hearing more about how Exodus members are interacting with each other, I’m interested to hear if/how conversations within Exodus may be changing when it comes to respecting LGBT and LGBT-affirming folks.
Dale
July 3rd, 2012
“I also want to thank the person who, without knowing anything about me, asked if he could pray over me” How utterly repulsive, that person might have well asked “May I have your permission to inflict my hate based mythology on you?” Its only a step up from what happens anyway.
Michael Bussee
July 3rd, 2012
Looking forward to your posts, Jim.
Michael Bussee
July 3rd, 2012
The recent “changes” at Exodus have me asking “What if”?
What if Exodus was really ONLY about “helping people to live above their temptations” and “acting in accordance with their faith”? What if they stayed OUT of anti-gay politics and OUT of countries where homosexuality is a crime?
What if they stopped telling false narratives about “cause” and “cure”? What if they stopped blaming parents? What if they truly have abandoned NARTH and “reparative therapy”? What if they are finally being really CLEAR with everyone that “99.9%” do not change their sexual orientation?
What if they stopped promoting mixed-orientation marriages? If they acknowledged that people CAN indeed be LGBT, Christian and happy? What if they stopped opposing equal civil rights for LGBT people?
What if they truly morph into a benevolent network of support groups for conservative Christians who think that acting on their “SSA” is “sin”? What if this IS the direction Exodus is heading?
Katie
July 3rd, 2012
Hey Jim, again it was a great pleasure getting to spend some time with you at the conference and getting to share in the green smoothie experience. Conversations with you are among my conference highlights, I appreciate your open-minded spirit and the opportunity to see each other as people, and enjoy the time, differences and all. I look forward to reading your up-coming blog posts and to keeping in touch.
… Ps, I know I didn’t ask your permission, but I pray for you, not to be manipulative or to cast spells ( although God knows I’d be thrilled to get a letter from Hogwarts), but because I think you are a valuable person and deserve good things, and who better to ask than God if I believe that he’s, you know, God? Hope you don’t mind ;>
Anthony Venn-Brown
July 3rd, 2012
Love your work Jim. We sometimes forget that people in that camp are human beings like us. Misguided, well intentioned human beings….but not evil or aliens as is sometimes depicted. My sense…..and of course I am not alone in this perception is that Alan and Exodus are on a journey. Some of dare to believe that eventually sanity will prevail and the same sex orientation will not be seen as something broken, dusfunctional or evil. There are lots of indicators it is moving that way. How long it will take none of us know. Wish we had a crystal ball. Charismatic/evangelical worship ain’t too bad…..hehe.
Yuri
July 3rd, 2012
Hasn’t Randy Thomas married a woman yet?
I’m shocked.
Mike Airhart
July 3rd, 2012
Changes in rhetoric at Exodus conferences, even if sincere, have little meaning when Exodus local ministries remain free from accountability, and free to abuse and molest youths.
If change has occurred, then why is it that sexual abuse, involuntary detention, and calls for criminalization continue to be exposed by gay rights groups, and not by Exodus’ non-existent Internal Affairs department?
Those of us who have tried to build bridges with Exodus in the past, only to be betrayed by highly abusive leaders, are eager for positive change.
But the conference’s own Twitter feed indicated that Exodus continues to pour out poisonous and pro-suicidal rhetoric which is rooted in talk of “sexual brokenness,” the false identity of being not-same-sex-attracted (when one is), and repudiation of anyone who practices sexual honesty.
Jack
July 5th, 2012
I saw over at TWO that Wayne Besen is really ticked off about your conversations with Exodus folks. Please don’t let yourself be bullied. While I’ve certainly had a lot of anger at Exodus, I don’t think bitterness without end is going to move us forward.
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