Box Turtle Bulletin
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobby“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobbyApril 10th, 2015
So it appears that there is something called Former Ex-Gay Leaders Alliance (FELA) which is comprised of (not surprisingly) former ex-gay leaders. FELA has issued a statement in support of the Obama Administration’s opposition to reparative therapy for minors.
Banning reparative therapy for minors from licensed clinical mental health professionals assures young people can find solace and solidarity in the scientific community, while holding mental health workers accountable. It does not limit them, or their parents, from seeking spiritual advice from clergy. It does however, send a clear message that the practice of sexual orientation change efforts does not work, and should alert and alarm guardians of its potentially dangerous, or even deadly, effects.
As one would never send a patient to a doctor to perform unethical, unnecessary, and outdated medicine, it is time to hold mental health practitioners to similar standards. We welcome President Obama’s statement and stand with him in opposition to reparative therapy for minors, and call on everyone, regardless of political affiliation, to stand with us and put an end, once and for all, to this practice.
Signatories incuded
Brad Allen – Exodus International
Darlene Bogle – Paraklete Ministries
Michael Bussee – Exodus International
Catherine Chapman – Portland Fellowship
Jeremy Marks – Courage UK, Exodus Europe
John Paulk – Love Won Out, Exodus International
Bill Prickett – Coming Back
Tim Rymel – Love in Action
Yvette Cantu Schneider – Exodus International, Family Research Council
John J. Smid – Love In Action, Exodus International
Randy Thomas – Exodus International
Michael D. Watt – Love in Action
Kevin White – Exodus Books
Yesterday Alan Chambers, former President of Exodus International, gave his support to the Administration’s position.
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Paul Douglas
April 10th, 2015
Good for them!
Richard Rush
April 11th, 2015
They are making significant progress toward atoning for their past errors, and while I respect them for that, they are not quite there yet.
Their statement includes, “It does not limit them, or their parents, from seeking spiritual advice from clergy.” The only parents who are likely to send a child to clergy for “spiritual advice” are those who attend anti-gay churches, and that could be as bad or worse than sending a child to a licensed “professional” promoting reparative therapy. Given our society’s wholly unwarranted level of respect and deference granted to religion, the banning of this abusive practice appears highly unlikely anytime soon.
Eric Payne
April 12th, 2015
Publicity whores, all of them.
Whatever happened to the shamed sitting in silence?
SharonB
April 13th, 2015
The world turned upside down!
(In a good way.)
JohnAGJ
April 13th, 2015
I’d rather have them voice support for banning this practice than shame them into silence, Eric. Now if they came out opposing the ban that would be a different matter entirely…
Priya Lynn
April 13th, 2015
I’m with you John.
Eric Payne
April 13th, 2015
Look at what they say — they;re not opposed to parents using the clergy to offer spiritual advice.
So they just don’t want the shrinks getting into a kid’s head, but if it’s God, hey, it’s cool with them.
They’re a bunch of pathetic sphincters who should have the good graces to sit in silence.
Jason
April 13th, 2015
It’s great seeing they’ve redeemed themselves.I commend them all.
Chris
April 13th, 2015
yet another blow to the ex-gay myth hopefully one day it’ll just fade away in the future
Eric in Oakland
April 14th, 2015
“It does not limit them, or their parents, from seeking spiritual advice from clergy.”
Eric and Richard, I don’t understand your objection to the inclusion of this statement. It isn’t advocating anything, but simply stating a fact. The point of including it is to counter the argument that these bans would limit religious freedom, which is untrue.
Eric Payne
April 14th, 2015
Eric in Oakland,
The reason I object? It’s simple — the very idea of reparative therapy began in the Church. Priests, pastors and Rabbis who would spiritually berate gays and lesbians as being unclean sinners damned to hell and to be shunned by all unless they repented and prayed to God to cure them of their unnatural desires.
As was pointed out… if parents believe their child is in need (or if the gay person, child or adult has that belief) of “spiritual counseling,” then they are probably members of a church/congregation who still hold to an “unsure sinner” belief of gays, and the terrorization of that gay person continues.
It’s tantamount to Chambers saying: “Hey, ‘pray-away-the-gay’ didn’t work for me. And I’m certain it doesn’t work at all. But it might work for someone else; it could have been my faith just wasn’t strong enough.”
Priya Lynn
April 14th, 2015
“It does not limit them, or their parents, from seeking spiritual advice from clergy.â€
Eric and Richard, I don’t understand your objection to the inclusion of this statement”.
Because it takes no position on that action, showing neutrality instead of condemning it as the evil it is.
Timothy Kincaid
April 14th, 2015
Eric Payne,
No, the very idea of reparative therapy did not begin in church.
Psychotherapy originated in the secular world and was held with high suspicion by the religious world for a very long time. Regular readers of BTB are very familiar with Jim’s reporting of all sort of historical efforts and implements for “curing” those with such urges. These were secular, not religious, efforts.
And the words you are putting in Alan’s mouth are very different from the words I hear him actually saying.
Eric Payne
April 14th, 2015
And, Timothy, we’re each entitled to our observations concerning the Chambers’ comments. But there’s a reason he provided himself with an “out” in his statement.
As for reparative therapy being wholly secular. While it’s true the Church didn’t create thos therapies, the Church and religious teachings is what provided the developers of modern-day “therapies” with the idea change was possible through… that those therapists changed the route of “change” from prayer and repentance to physical and psychological torture doesn’t matter.
Timothy Kincaid
April 14th, 2015
No, Eric, I don’t think you are correct.
For a very long time, homosexuality was seen by the church as merely behavior. There was nothing to “change” about a person, per se, they simply needed to resist temptation.
The idea that a person was actually uniquely attracted to the same sex – and thus that there was some aspect to them that could be subject to change – was wholly secular. As were the therapies.
Eric Payne
April 14th, 2015
And the same holds true for the secular viewpoint — those who engaged in homosexual activity were making a choice to do so. While that choice may be driven by a psychosis/psychiatric disorder, it is still the behavior they attempt to change.
I repeat myself concerning these “ex- ex-gay” spokespeople: They are addicted to the attention and publicity they’re used to receiving. I firmly believe most of them believe their failure to change is completely their fault — they failed in their faith and, so, God did not relieve them of their “Same Sex Attraction Disorder” (btw: that phrase was coined by religious leaders, not secular psychiatrists). So, while they now believe such change is impossible… for themselves… it might not be for someone else, so they’re not against “spiritual counseling.”
We see this from two different angles from the get-go, Tim. With Chambers, or any other ex-ex-gay who makes public statements that can be viewed as being gay-friendly, or seem to be blatantly gay-positive, you see someone who is attempting to atone for their past transgressions.
I see egotistical narcissists who aren’t getting their fix, and are starving for attention.
They want to make reparations for the harm they caused, and the infliction of pain in which they personally, individually participated? Issue a public apology, fund a scholarship program (anonymously) or open shelters for gay kids discarded by parents (again, anonymously) and just shut up. Give those gay persons who are your contemporaries the chance to forget about you.
Timothy Kincaid
April 14th, 2015
Eric,
You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion about former ex-gays or anyone else.
However, the statements you are making appear to be contradicted by the former ex-gays themselves. None that I know of are saying that “it might work for someone else”.
I think perhaps that you have a different understanding of the term “spiritual counseling” than is commonly used in Christian circles. It seems that you assume that it must include efforts to change orientation. I don’t think that either the former ex-gays nor the others reading at Religion News would have that understanding of the term.
Timothy Kincaid
April 14th, 2015
As for whether they are attention seekers or not, we see differently.
While you want them to disappear, others of us find value in their public opposition to ex-gay efforts and therapy.
But I’m a bit amused that you insist they do a number of things and do them anonymously. For all we know, they may be doing so. Anonymously.
Eric Payne
April 14th, 2015
And if they are, good for them. It’s what they should be doing — penetance and reparation in humbled silence.
Eric Payne
April 14th, 2015
But Timothy, as for whether they’re attention seekers or not…
There’s a big difference between a media person approaching Chambers and asking him for a quote/statement and Chambers approaching a media person/outlet and saying: “I used to be involved in the ex-gay movement (or just relying on name recognition); would you like a comment from me concerning today’s White House statements?”
Certainly, as a news media reporter, you understand that distinction.
ET
April 14th, 2015
In regard to “For a very long time, homosexuality was seen by the church as merely behavior. There was nothing to ‘change’ about a person, per se, they simply needed to resist temptation,” the reality is that for a very long time, the Church has viewed the appetite, inclination and tendency toward homosexual acts as both disordered and different from the behavior of actually engaging in the act. And rather than “there was nothing to change about the person,” the Church has long taught and continues to teach that such inclinations and tendencies are imperfections of the person, and that “the commandment said, ‘You shall not covet,’ in order that, when we find ourselves lying in this diseased state, we might seek the medicine of Grace, and by that commandment know both in what direction our endeavours should aim as we advance in our present mortal condition, and to what a height it is possible to reach in the future immortality. For unless perfection could somewhere be attained, this commandment would never have been given to us.”
Thus, even if perfection (e.g. to be free of disordered tendencies) is ultimately only in “the future immortality”, it nonetheless remains a therapeutic endeavor on earth to “advance in our present mortal condition,” and the “medicine of Grace” and “endeavors” toward perfection (e.g. to be free of disordered tendencies) can certainly be considered forms of “reparative therapy” that long predate Freud. And indeed, “reparative therapy” comes in many different forms, not limited to psychotherapy, including prayer and ministry and just about any religious practice under the sun.
Also, reparative therapy does not require that “a person was actually uniquely attracted to the same sex”, for it’s available for bisexual persons as well, and even for heterosexual persons who have occasional unwanted thoughts.
Timothy Kincaid
April 14th, 2015
Eric,
I understand the above quote to have a different meaning than the one you ascribe to it. Perhaps we have different experiences which yield a different understanding of the particular language of Christianity.
AbnerBh
April 22nd, 2015
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AbnerBh
April 22nd, 2015
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AbnerBh
April 22nd, 2015
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Priya Lynn
April 22nd, 2015
Abner, no one who is completely heterosexual is as obsessed with LGBT people as you. You are obviously a self-loathing gay. Get help and learn to accept yourself as you are – there is nothing wrong with same sex attractions, they are harmless.
Ben in oakland
April 22nd, 2015
Oh, honey, copying and pasting the same stupidity doesn’t maker you smarter…
It makes you stupiderer.
Priya Lynn
April 22nd, 2015
As I recall, Abner was put on moderation for posting such nonsense on previous occasions, he’s now changed his identity so he can post his previously debunked idiocy again.
Richard Rush
April 22nd, 2015
I strongly suspect that AbnerBh (aka Abian, aka Bhattacharya, aka snowisfun, aka funinsnow, aka playinsnow, aka JR Johnson, and aka just plain Abner) is actually Janis Heuberger of Colorado Springs.
Priya Lynn
April 22nd, 2015
What makes you think that Richard?
Abneb
April 22nd, 2015
Again Richard Rush-I’m not Jewish yet you gave me a Jewish name & though I’m not White, I agree with David E. Duke & SOlutrian John H. DeNugent that we need to stop going to wars for Jews such as Iraq (let the Jews fight that out with the Arabs) & Jews control money such as Goldman Sachs.
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Priya Lynn
April 22nd, 2015
You’re projecting Abneb, accusing others of the dishonesty in yourself you don’t want to admit. All the evidence shows that gayness is biological in origin, there is no link to childhood sex abuse.
Priya Lynn
April 22nd, 2015
You’re sick abneb, you need to get help. You’re obsession with stirring up hatred of innocent LGBT people is only keeping you from getting well.
IamNOTJewish
April 22nd, 2015
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Priya Lynn
April 22nd, 2015
We’ve been though this before abner. What determines a person’s sexual orientation is who they are attracted to, not who they have sex with. Child molesters don’t care about the gender of the child they’re molesting, they are attracted to the lack of secondary sexual characteristics, the smooth hairless skin, etc. and so it doesn’t generally matter to them if their victim is a boy or girl, they are attracted to the feminine smoothness regardless. Heterosexual male child molesters mostly molest boys because they are given access to boys rather than girls. Almost all child molesters are in a heterosexual adult relationship.
You are like the people who genitally mutilate young girls, you want to control what others do with their bodies. People have a right to do whatever they want to their bodies, neither you nor the female genital mutliators have a right to control other people’s bodies
iamnotaJewtore
April 22nd, 2015
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Priya Lynn
April 22nd, 2015
Repeating the same lie won’t fool anyone Abner. Everyone knows sexual orientation is determined by who you’re attracted to, not who you have sex with.
All the evidence shows gayness and transgenderims is biological, sexual molestation has nothing to do with it and the vast majority of LGBT people were not molested and the vast majority of people who were molested as children turn out heterosexual.
Priya Lynn
April 22nd, 2015
Get off the internet and get help Abner – you’re sick.
iamnotajew
April 22nd, 2015
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Priya Lynn
April 22nd, 2015
Almost all child molesters are males in heterosexual relationships. Gays and transexuals are far less likely to be child molestors than heteroesexual men.
Your desire to murder people who are harming no one is the ultimate evidence of your pathology – get off the internet and get help.
William Fisher
April 22nd, 2015
OK, IamNOTJewish (or whatever you want to call yourself), using your criteria, if Jerry A. Sandusky is a homosexual paedophile, he is also a heterosexual teleiophile. Even if he called himself gay, he would still be straight by behaviour definition. That pattern is, in fact, quite a common one: a man who is heterosexual where adults are concerned but engages in homosexual sex with children.
A UK Home Office report (Sex Offending Against Children: Understanding The Risk, 1998) notes that the sex of the children targeted by abusers “does not appear to reflect, however, sexual orientation towards adultsâ€, and that “Marshall et al. (1988) found, for example, that even in a group of men who had offended exclusively against boys aged five to 10, two thirds had adult heterosexual preferences.†(p. 18) We are not told what the adult sexual preferences of the remaining third were, or even whether they had any at all, but on the next page the Home Office report also cites a 1991 paper on child molesters by the same research team, which refers to “the FEW [emphasis added] who engaged in homosexual behaviour with adults.â€
My own experience, although it cannot be statistically significant, is in line with this: the two most persistent sexual offenders against young boys whom I have known have both been heterosexual teleiophiles living a “normal†heterosexual “lifestyleâ€, i.e. married to women and with children of their own.
Timothy Kincaid
April 22nd, 2015
Can we PLEASE stop feeding the troll?
His cut and paste nonsense is being deleted which leaves a one-sided argument. There’s no point.
Priya Lynn
April 22nd, 2015
Last time he was here Jim put him on moderation, he hasn’t demonstrated any reason why he should have been taken off moderation.
Jim Burroway
April 22nd, 2015
I have put him on moderation again. I had removed several moderation blocks last year when a number of people were complaining that they were getting moderation messages even though they weren’t supposed to be on moderation.
Eric Payne
April 22nd, 2015
Damn.
The Village Idiot must have been here, wearing his “Kick me. Kick me, hard” sign… and because Comcast been wonky all day, I missed it.
Damn. Damn. Damndamndamn.
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