34 responses

  1. Heather
    February 25, 2008

    The LDS church has recently posted their reply to this at http://www.newsroom.lds.org
    As a gay mormon I am grateful for this man and women for standing up for what he believes in.

  2. notreligiousbutmw
    February 26, 2008

    I see something wrong with men having sex with men & women having sex with women, whatever the causes. I also see something wrong with sex change maimings. True Mormons share my views & I’m not even religious.

    As it’s about the Mormon Church, Peter & Mary Danzig can’t pick & choose which parts to follow. If they disagree with the Mormon Church, then they must do as they did-leave the church or be excommunicated. Church doctrine is specific in what it says about homosexuality. I don’t know all of the facts other than what has been posted in the press & it has been my observation that they often present 1/2 truths & I wouldn’t be surprised if what has been written about this is 1/2 true.

    @least Peter Danzig didn’t lose his job, unlike Rolf Szabo fired by Kodak in 2002 after 23 years, because Rolf Szabo politely sent an email where he said that he did not want to hear about homosexuality during work hours or Robert Smith a state employee in Maryland, fired in 2006 by then Gov. Ehrlich because Mr. Smith gave his opinions that homosexual behaviors are bad outside work hours on a cable TV show, which gay groups didn’t tolerate.

    Peter & Mary Danzig were rebuked by the LDS, but their livelihoods weren’t taken from them. 1 reason I changed my neutrality on homosexuality & am now against is because it’s the homosexual groups that consistently try to push their views on others & then punish those who differ. I hate it when people push their faiths on me & I also hate it when homosexuals push their views on me, which many do. I empathize with Rolf Szabo & Robert Smith, because those 2 men lost their livelihoods because they see something wrong with homosexual behaviors & didn’t want homosexuals pushing their views on them.

    I don’t sympathize with Peter & Mary Danzig, because I think they asked the Mormon church to change their position & they know or should know what Church teaching is on it. If they had written in support of a pro-choice person & were excommunicated, it wouldn’t have been newsworthy. I’m pro-choice on abortion & while I would debate pro-lifers, I’m not going to ask Catholics, Mormons & Muslims to change their abortion positions. But whatever the entirety of this story is, my ? is why do you care about what the Mormon Church thinks & why should you care about how the Danzigs were treated by the Mormon Church ?

  3. TJ McFisty
    February 26, 2008

    So here we are, people have been fired (lost their livelihoods) for being gay and fired (lost their livelihoods) for speaking out against it. Hmmmph, just when you thought we couldn’t be consistent.

    Just curious what the greater offense here is? Stating who you are as a person and getting fired for it or stating opinions about others’ lives you don’t live and getting fired for it? I say neither is 100% justifiable, but at the crux of the matter, what’s more offensive and deserving of rebuke?

  4. liberal
    February 27, 2008

    notreligiousbutmw wrote, I see something wrong with men having sex with men & women having sex with women, whatever the causes.

    Thanks for publicly admitting you’re a bigot.

    As it’s about the Mormon Church, Peter & Mary Danzig can’t pick & choose which parts to follow. If they disagree with the Mormon Church, then they must do as they did-leave the church or be excommunicated. Church doctrine is specific in what it says about homosexuality.

    But they didn’t commit homosexual acts—they challenged the church in a public forum.

    Sure, the Church is entitled to have the attitude that they can expel (via excommunication or threat thereof) anyone who merely expresses a disagreeable opinion. And the rest of us are entitled to thus view the Church as a repressive, authoritarian organization.

  5. liberal
    February 27, 2008

    notreligiousbutmw wrote, @least Peter Danzig didn’t lose his job, unlike Rolf Szabo fired by Kodak in 2002 after 23 years, because Rolf Szabo politely sent an email where he said that he did not want to hear about homosexuality during work hours…

    It wasn’t polite. He said it was “disgusting and offensive,” and furthermore he “reply all”ed, which meant all gay employees on the list received it.

    Don’t like the fact that he was fired? Tough. Employment law in the US offers very few speech protections, largely due to right-wing political forces backed by (among others, of course) the Mormon Church and almost certainly a majority of its adherents.

    …Robert Smith a state employee in Maryland, fired in 2006 by then Gov. Ehrlich because Mr. Smith gave his opinions that homosexual behaviors are bad outside work hours on a cable TV show, which gay groups didn’t tolerate.

    Why should they tolerate the presence of a bigot in a high state office? Would it be OK, for example, if he had said “Mormons are crazed cult followers” instead?

  6. liberal
    February 27, 2008

    notreligiousbutmw wrote, I’m pro-choice on abortion & while I would debate pro-lifers, I’m not going to ask Catholics, Mormons & Muslims to change their abortion positions.

    That’s a silly position to take. If the position of religious groups and their adherents on abortion and other issues of public policy didn’t affect the rest of us (through their political impact), this might be a reasonable stance. But they do have an impact, so it’s an unreasonable stance.

    But whatever the entirety of this story is, my ? is why do you care about what the Mormon Church thinks & why should you care about how the Danzigs were treated by the Mormon Church ?

    Because the Church is supporting bigotry, both in its own acts, and in the public policies being pushed directly or indirectly (through its adherents). Which affects the rest of us.

  7. Emily K
    February 27, 2008

    Liberal, just ignore that guy, he’s trolled a couple times before. He knows what he is and so does everyone else. there’s no need to confront and acknowledge him.

  8. Priya Lynn
    February 27, 2008

    I on the other hand appreciate Liberal addressing the falshoods of notreligiousbutmw. Why leave the stage to allow bigotry to go unchallenged.

  9. notreligiousbutmw
    February 27, 2008

    Your thoughts are noted. Personally, I don’t care if you call me a bigot & a homophobe. Sex change maimings are the saddest thing to come out in medicine & I don’t base my beliefs on any religious thinking.

    What happened to Rolf Szabo IMO is sexual harassment. Forcing employees to listen to the view that homosexual activities are OK, w/o opposing views is sexual harassment. Rolf Szabo should have sued Kodak for it. It’s no different than if Kodak had a coming out for swingers. Yes, the workplace is filled with people who engage in different sexual behaviors & most people incl. Rolf Szabo didn’t care, until homosexuals began pushing their views on him. Rolf Szabo finds certain sexual behaviors disgusting & if people are telling him about it, he has a right to say what he thinks. If Mormons or members of other faiths start using the workplace to push their religious views, then yes, people should have a right to give their dissenting views.

    With Robert Smith, if he wanted to slam Mormons outside work hours, then that’s his 1st Amendment right. As long as Robert Smith treats other employees fairly which he did & didn’t discuss it during work hours, then he should keep his job. I’ve worked with people who think poorly of my ethnicity, but provided that they don’t discuss it during work (though I don’t usu care)& treat me fairly, then I really don’t care if they think poorly of my ethnic group, because I realize that not every1 will like my group. China & Japan have a turbulent history & you can be sure that many Chinese workers hate the Japanese & vice versa, but as long as they treat eachother fairly during work, then that’s what matters.

    As this is about Mormons, it’s not the Mormons who usu. are pushing their views in the workplace. Most Mormons aren’t having work & school sessions where they tell employees & pupils that Mormonism is the right religion & that if you think Mormonism is a cult, you’ll be fired or be expelled from school. It’s homosexual groups who push the view that their sexual behaviors are OK & then don’t tolerate views of those who see something wrong with it. Transexuals also do the same thing. More employees & students must say “enough is enough” & start giving their dissenting views, even if homosexuals hate the opinions, because they raised the discussion 1st.

    If Peter & Mary Danzig hate the opinions of the LDS, then they should do as they did, leave the church or find a religion which agrees with their views.

  10. Jason D
    February 28, 2008

    “Rolf Szabo finds certain sexual behaviors disgusting & if people are telling him about it, he has a right to say what he thinks.”

    Tell him about it? Please produce the photos and or letter where he was told about “certain sexual behaviors” he finds disgusting.

    Get your facts straight, if someone mentions they are gay, that is not the same as telling someone an x-rated story about what they did with their genitals on friday night.

    If you, or other people, can’t help but think of specific sexual activities when someone mentions they are gay — that’s your issue, not mine, and no it doesn’t count as sexual harrassment.

    Homosexuality is not a behavior, it’s an orientation. When someone tells you they are gay, straight, or bi, that gives you an idea of what kind of PERSON they are likely to be romantically and or sexually involved with. It does NOT, however, tell you what specific activities they will enjoy.

  11. notreligiousbutmw
    February 28, 2008

    Jason D, your answer about Rolf Szabo is 1/2 true rerun, just as the article about Peter & Mary Danzig. To start with, even if attractions don’t change, it’s best to change behaviors to either straight nomrmal sex or celibacy, so your point about orientation’s a moot. OK, the Mormon church & the non-Mormons such as myself who agree with them are telling homosexuals to “pretend” by engaging in either straight normal sex or celibacy, but yes, that’s what I believe is in the best interests. I also agree with the Mormon church in that whether homosexuality is the result of genes & biology are sideissues. Obesity is also the result of genes.

    Also work & schools are not the place to discuss homosexuality, gun control, abortion etc. nor even ID who is straight, gay or had an abortion. With Rolf Szabo, the claim that it’s just telling people that 1 is gay or a swinger is a euphemism. It’s really about pushing in the workplace & schools that same sex behaviors are OK & then censoring those who dissent, which is what makes it sexual harassment. With schools, I side with the suspended youths both Mormon & non-Mormon who carried signs which read “sodomy is a sin”, though they broke Federal law of separation of church & state.

    If homosexual groups want to discuss homosexuality, then they can do it outside work hours. But if homosexuals are going to speak in public schools about it, then it’s only just that people who see something wrong with homosexuality talk about the harms of homosexual behaviors, even if homosexuals hate it.

    On abortion, I disagree with the Mormon church simply because if it could be predicted that an unborn baby would be handicapped, be a homosexual or have GID, then I believe abortions are justified. I also believing in aborting future mass murderers if it could be predicted. Yes, handicapped people can do productive things, but if I didn’t have hands or feet, then I wouldn’t want to be born, but if women want to give birth & take care of a baby who is handicapped for the rest of their lives, then I’ll support their right to do so.

    Not to discuss repair therapy, but it has been my observation that those who favor it are usu. religious incl. Mormons. If scientists discover the pill or vaccine to cure homosexuality & Gender Dysphoria (GID), then the world is a better place without sex change mutilations & without homosexuality. What’s ironic is that the same people who oppose finding cures for homosexuality & GID are silent on cloning. Though indirectly related to repair therapy, tennis legend Martina Navratilova protested experiments to make gay sheep straight on the grounds it’s animal cruelty, yet Martina Navratilova has been silent on cloning, nor has Martina Navratilova protested sex change mutilations, which were 1st done on animals, incl. the dangerous hormones. If Martina Navratilova truly cares about animals, then she’ll speak against sex change mutilations or maimings.

    Mormons do debate other topics such as the death penalty. While the Mormonism calls for the death penalty in some cases, it does not require it & in fact, there are Mormons who have asked the church to change it’s position on this to life in prison. The Catholic Church used to favor the death penalty but changed & has been against it for many years.
    The death penalty is a debatable topic in the Mormon & Catholic churches. If Peter & Mary Danzig had wanted to debate the Mormon church on this topic, then they wouldn’t have been excommunicated. Topics such as homosexuality are not debatable in the Mormon & Catholic churches, because doctrine says specificially that certain behaviors are wrong.

  12. Blood Donor
    February 28, 2008

    While I am trusting the website to be accurate in publishing the text of the memo, I would say that if this is truly the content, the memo did not “discuss” homosexuality or sex in any way. The memo addressed how to treat others with respect, consideration, and common courtesy.

    “Text of Kodak Memo, re: “Coming Out Day”
    Today, Oct. 11, is the Human Rights Campaign’s 15th annual National Coming Out Day for people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered. If one of your employees elects to “come out” at work, there are several things you can do to help that person feel comfortable in sharing his/her orientation in the workplace:

    Be supportive of the individual who wishes to share this information.
    Acknowledge his/her courage to publicly share this personal information.
    Respect the individual’s privacy. Understand how broadly he/she wishes the information to be shared.
    Acknowledge your level of awareness of this topic, and share your personal willingness to understand.
    What can supervisors do in the work environment to support their gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered employees who wish to be “out” to their supervisor or co-workers?

    Be sensitive to the employee’s language in defining their personal orientation.
    Support the employee in displaying appropriate personal photos in the work setting.
    Recognize and respect that not all (gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered) employees find it OK to be out at work. They should not be questioned or harassed about their sexual orientation.
    Act quickly and responsibly if any anti-gay humor or negative comments are made in the workplace.

    Keep in mind that such behaviors violate Kodak’s Values as well as Kodak’s Equal Opportunity Employment Policy, which all supervisors are responsible for maintaining in their areas. Specific examples are cited in your “Call to Action” training materials. Reported violations of this policy are to be thoroughly investigated. If verified, disciplinary action is to be taken. “

  13. Priya Lynn
    February 28, 2008

    Notreligious said ” Sex change maimings are the saddest thing to come out in medicine”.

    The people getting sex changes are overwhelmingly happy with them. This is a happy thing, that it makes you sad is irrelevant.

    Forcing employees to listen to the view that homosexual activities are OK, w/o opposing views is sexual harassment.

    Nonsense. Gay employees are forced to hear all the time that heterosexual activities are normal and there is no opposing view presented. In neither case is this harrassement

    It’s homosexual groups who push the view that their sexual behaviors are OK & then don’t tolerate views of those who see something wrong with it. Transexuals also do the same thing. More employees & students must say “enough is enough” & start giving their dissenting views, even if homosexuals hate the opinions, because they raised the discussion 1st.

    By your logic workplaces should tolerate the views that blacks are inferior and have no souls because currently they push the view that they are okay and don’t tolerate views of those who see something wrong with blacks.

    I’ve worked with people who think poorly of my ethnicity, but provided that they don’t discuss it during work (though I don’t usu care)& treat me fairly, then I really don’t care

    That’s quite a double standard you’ve got there – no one should denigrate your ethnicity at work, but people should be free to denigrate gays at work.

    , even if attractions don’t change, it’s best to change behaviors to either straight nomrmal sex or celibacy

    That’s completely wrong. Its stressful and depressing to pretend to be something your not and it is a recipe for disaster to get into a straight marriage when your gay – its totally unfair to the spouse and any children that may be born. Far better to build a happy romantic life with someone you’re attracted to than to live a lie just to please bigots.

    Also work & schools are not the place to discuss homosexuality, gun control, abortion etc. nor even ID who is straight, gay

    Straight people make their orientation known all the time by talking about their spouses, who they find attractive, hugging or greating with terms of endearment that special someone. Straight people never hide their orientation and there’s no reason why gay people should have to either.

    If homosexual groups want to discuss homosexuality, then they can do it outside work hours.

    Discussions of heterosexuality aren’t banned from the workplace, neither should discussions of gayness.

    On abortion, I disagree with the Mormon church simply because if it could be predicted that an unborn baby would be handicapped, be a homosexual or have GID, then I believe abortions are justified

    Being gay or transexual isn’t a handicap, the only handicap we have is the one people like you place on us by trying to deny us equal rights and respect. The problem is people like you, not being gay or transexual.

    If scientists discover the pill or vaccine to cure homosexuality & Gender Dysphoria (GID), then the world is a better place without sex change mutilations & without homosexuality.

    Gays and transexuals are just as productive and happy as straights and non-transexuals. Changing that wouldn’t make the world a better place any more than making all people white would make the world a better place.

  14. Timothy Kincaid
    February 28, 2008

    Perhaps we should remember that trolls are like stray cats. If you feed them they will stay and breed more to feed.

    Perhaps it’s best not to feed the trolls. Eventually they will tire of having others ignore their ramblings and will shuffle off to somewhere that their inchoherent thoughts will be disputed as though they had merit.

  15. Jason D
    February 28, 2008

    “But if homosexuals are going to speak in public schools about it, then it’s only just that people who see something wrong with homosexuality talk about the harms of homosexual behaviors”

    Simply put, there are no harms of homosexual behaviors.

    To be fair, honest, and accurate — the dangers of homosexuality are the same as heterosexuality: they all depend on the specific activity, cleanliness and health status of the partners involved. ALL sexual activity beyond chastity carries with it certain risks.

  16. notreligiousbutmw
    February 28, 2008

    Everything you wrote repeats what I’ve heard before. Even some homosexuals are against sex change mutilations, though the #s are few. Tammy Bruce who is a lesbian talk hostess has decried sex change mutilations, saying that a man who wants to become a woman has no clue what it means. It doesn’t take an expert to understand that surgical maimings + the hormone shots harm the body & to say otherwise is rubbish. John Biven of Family Taxpayers Network who is not religious has talked about the harms of sex change mutilations & that they must be abolished. It’s sad medicine & the same as whitening a Black person, because they have ethnic dysphoria. Also, homosexuals are not comparable to Blacks. Blacks are a group based on ethnicity, the former activity.

    I expect homosexuals & transexuals to hate what I write. None of you have written anything that I haven’t heard before. I realize that this topic has been overkilled & I know that forums such as this 1 or the mainstream press rehash what posters write here. Michael Glatze who was the editor of a gay magazine used to rehash the same things, but in 2007, he changed his views on homosexuality & says that homosexual behaviors are harmful, which he based on his own personal experiences. There has been speculation that he became a Mormon. Glatze has said that he is Christian, but whatever his religion, Michael Glatze deserves credit for speaking honestly.

  17. Priya Lynn
    February 28, 2008

    Notreligious, gays are defined by same sex attraction, not activity. One can be a virgin and be gay just as one can be a heterosexual and a virgin. Being gay (or heterosexual) is a core part of a person just like being black is.

    It is irrelevant what Tammy Bruce or you think about sex changes. The people getting them are overwhelmingly happy with the results, that’s a good thing, and that’s all that matters. You don’t like sex changes then don’t have one, its not for you to dictate to others what they should do with their bodies.

  18. notreligiousbutmw
    March 1, 2008

    Your thoughts are all noted, but you’re repeating what I’ve heard before. Suicide rates are higher among those who’ve had sex change maimings, so Priya’s comments are rubbish. As to attractions, I’ve already addressed this.

    It would be nice if you could have Mormons give their side of the story here, rather than repeat the same things. Why don’t you for a change have views of Mormons & others who see something wrong with sex change mutilations & homosexuality expressed here? Why don’t you have John Biven of Family Taxpayers Network who is a non-religious person that sees something wrong with homosexuality & lesbianism give his views? If you care about dialogue, then let’s have honest dialogue.

  19. Timothy Kincaid
    March 1, 2008

    notreligiousbutmw,

    Please refer to our Comments Policy.

    commenters may be moderated or banned for persisting in any of following behavior:

    Unsubstantiated claims, for example, claims which are not backed by direct quotes, links, or bibliographic references from independent sources

    We do not allow claims such as “suicide rates are higher…” without a source for the claim.

  20. notreligiousbutmw
    March 1, 2008

    OK, Dr. Richard P. Fitzgibbons & Dr. N.E. Whitehead of New Zealand have the claims to back it up. John Biven of FTN also has information.

  21. Timothy Kincaid
    March 1, 2008

    Simply listing a couple of NARTH’s members and saying that they “have the claims to back it up” is not adequate support.

    Either provide a link to a study or a news report in the future or else do not make claims on this site.

  22. Priya Lynn
    March 1, 2008

    Unlike Notreligious I have links to back up my statements that those who have sexual reassingment surgery are overwhelmingly satisfied with the procedure:

    http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2003/05/06/does-sexual-reassignment-surgery-work/

    The most comprehensive study of post-SRS outcomes is “Sex Reassignment. Thirty Years of International Follow-up Studies” by Friedemann Pf’fflin and Astrid Junge (1992 in German, English translation 1998). Pf’fflin and Junge used data from over 70 studies, in total considering the outcomes of over 2000 patients from 13 countries. They found that outcomes – measured in terms of “subjective satisfaction; mental stability; socioeconomic functioning; and partnership and sexual experience” – of SRS are generally positive. Overall, 71% of male-to-female (MTF) and 90% of female-to-male (FTM) operations had positive results. When they limited their sample only to more recent patients (who benefited from improvements in techniques and procedures over the decades), the results were positive for 87% of MTFs and 97% for FTMs.

    That study is now over 10 years old and two more recent studies have shown 100% satisfaction rates:

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/p005571hmv827611/
    Jamil Rehman, Simcha Lazer, Alexandru E. Benet, Leah C. Schaefer and Arnold Melman
    Abstract From 1980 to July 1997 sixty-one male-to-femalegender transformation surgeries were performed at ouruniversity center by one author (A.M.). Data werecollected from patients who had surgery up to 1994 (n = 47) to obtain a minimum follow-up of 3years; 28 patients were contacted. A mail questionnairewas supplemented by personal interviews with 11 patientsand telephone interviews with remaining patients to obtain and clarify additional information.Physical and functional results of surgery were judgedto be good, with few patients requiring additionalcorrective surgery. General satisfaction was expressed over the quality of cosmetic (normal appearinggenitalia) and functional (ability to perceive orgasm)results. Follow-up showed satisfied who believed theyhad normal appearing genitalia and the ability to experience orgasm. Most patients were ableto return to their jobs and live a more satisfactorysocial and personal life. One significant outcome wasthe importance of proper preparation of patients for surgeryand especially the need foradditional postoperative psychotherapy. None of thepatients regretted having had surgery. However, somewere, to a degree, disappointed because of difficultiesexperienced postoperativelyin adjusting satisfactorilyaswomen both in their relationships with men and in livingtheir lives generally as women. Findings of this studymake a strong case for making a change in the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care to include aperiod of postoperative psychotherapy.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/g40k461746677054/
    Anne A. Lawrence
    Abstract This study examined factors associated with satisfaction or regret following sex reassignment surgery (SRS) in 232 male-to-female transsexuals operated on between 1994 and 2000 by one surgeon using a consistent technique. Participants, all of whom were at least 1-year postoperative, completed a written questionnaire concerning their experiences and attitudes. Participants reported overwhelmingly that they were happy with their SRS results and that SRS had greatly improved the quality of their lives. None reported outright regret and only a few expressed even occasional regret. Dissatisfaction was most strongly associated with unsatisfactory physical and functional results of surgery. Most indicators of transsexual typology, such as age at surgery, previous marriage or parenthood, and sexual orientation, were not significantly associated with subjective outcomes. Compliance with minimum eligibility requirements for SRS specified by the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association was not associated with more favorable subjective outcomes. The physical results of SRS may be more important than preoperative factors such as transsexual typology or compliance with established treatment regimens in predicting postoperative satisfaction or regret.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/p4347n067550n604/

    Abstract The dearth of information regarding orgasm in postoperative transsexuals prompted the authors to study its prevalence. The sample consisted of 14 male-to-female (M—F) and 9 female-to-male (F—M) postoperative transsexuals. The relationship of orgasm to sexual and general satisfaction was explored via a specially designed questionnaire. Orgastic capacity declined in the M—F group and increased in the (F—M) group. Despite the decrease in orgasm in the M—F group, satisfaction with sex and general satisfaction with the results of surgery were high in both groups. General satisfaction of 86% replicates other studies. Frequency of sex increased by 75% in the M—F group and by 100% in the F—M group. A phalloplasty does not appear to be a critical factor in orgasm or in sexual satisfaction. The general conclusion is reached that it is possible to change one’s body image and sexual identity and be sexually satisfied despite inadequate sexual functioning.

  23. werdna
    March 1, 2008

    Oh for Pete’s sake, the man’s name is John Biver, not Biven. Once was bad enough, but three times? If you’re just going to parrot anti-gay boilerplate, notreligiousbutmw, at least get the people’s names right!

  24. notreligiousbutmw
    March 1, 2008

    Yes, Richard P. Fitzgibbons is a NARTH member, but he treats Gender Dysphoria (GID). Dr. NE Whitehead is not a NARTH member, but has contributed articles to NARTH & he has a PHD. John Biver of Family Taxpayers Network has no affiliation with NARTH. You’re going to discard almost everything Dr. NE Whitehead, Dr. Richard P. Fitzgibbons or experts who share their views say. It doesn’t take an expert to understand that it involves mutilating surgeries & hormones. For women, it involves masetectomy of healthy breasts. I see something wrong with this.

    The same people who support sex changes on the grounds of let people do what they want to their bodies oppose repair therapy to cure homosexuality & GID. You only support scientific freedom when it agrees with you. Yes, the Mormon church & those with religious views are the major supporters of r.t. But even with religious biases, if Mormons or others who do repair therapy can discover the cures, then it’s commendable. Since this is about Mormons, who are you or the Danzigs to say that their views are wrong & yours are right? I used to be neutral on the topic of homosexuality, but I changed my views after talking to Muslims & Mormons, + visiting sites of those who are against homosexuality. Groups like PFLAG frequently protest NARTH & in schools they push for 1 sided views. Mormons are willing to have dialogues with those who differ. While Mormon missionaries have frequently stopped me @ airports or come to my house to discuss Mormonism with the hope of converting me, I have found them to be nice & respectful.

    If you want to know the main reason I changed my views on homosexuality, it’s because of my own personal bad experiences with homosexuals. I’ve found many though not all to push their views on me. They consistently lecture about the virtues of homosexuality & they don’t tolerate views of those who see something wrong with same sex behaviors. I don’t like people pushing their beliefs on me. That’s why I side with high school youths who don’t listen to what homosexual speakers say in schools & speak their own mind. They must be commended for not letting others tell them what to think. If you want a dialogue, then have an open discussion. @least the Mormons are willing to have dialogue with those who differ.

  25. Priya Lynn
    March 2, 2008

    Once again Notreligious, its irrelevant what you think about sex changes, the people who get them are overwhelmingly happy with them and that is all that matters.

    For that matter we don’t care why you changed your views on gayness, you are unimportant. That you based your disapproval of gayness not on any rational reason, but on the fact that some gays told you their views shows you have no valid reasons for your hate, you’d hate gayness regardless of how harmless it may be or how much it benefits the people who are that way.

  26. notreligiousbutmw
    March 3, 2008

    Many Blacks feel insulted when Priya Lynn compares them to Blacks, because of reasons already given. Blacks also have said that sex change mutilations are the same as whitening Blacks or darkening Whites because of Ethnic Dysphoria. With Gender Dysphoria (GID), when repair therapists do discover the vaccine or pill to cure GID, psychologists will advocate this cure & we’ll hear about how science has been sadly wasted mutilating patients & have no doubt that many people who suffer from GID will take the the cure. The same with homosexuality & lesbianism. Incidentally, I also believe in abolishing sterilization surgeries because the pill is safe enough for birth control.

    It’s been my observation that the homosexuals & lesbians who seek repair therapy, do so because they’re not happy about who they are. Yes, some are pressued by family & religous ministers, but the majority do so because they want to be straight. People such as Timothy Kincaid don’t think it should even be an option. I commend the Mormons, the Spaniards who protested in Spain against gay marriages & the highschool students who don’t listen to what PFLAG says in public schools but speak their mind. Even some homosexuals & lesbians such as Tammy Bruce have spoken against PFLAG using schools to push their views on youths. Does PFLAG really think that they’re telling the pupils anything that they haven’t already heard ? I commend the pupils who anger PFLAG.

    Tammy Bruce is 1 of the few lesbians who is honestly discussing homosexuality & she changed her views from what she believed as a talkshow hostess on KFI from 1994-98. Now I haven’t always agreed with Tammy Bruce, such as I differ with her on the death penalty (I don’t believe in most cases the death penalty should be used, perhaps Tammy Bruce feels the same way) & I don’t agree with Tammy Bruce on the Iraq intervention-yes Saddam Hussein’s an evil man, but we should not have gone into Iraq nor stayed very long. But I commend Tammy Bruce for reevaluating & criticizing PFLAG & GLSEN. Tammy Bruce is 1 of the exceptions who has said that it’s not hating homosexuals to be against same sex behaviors.

  27. Jim Burroway
    March 3, 2008

    nonreligious.

    I will have to ask you to refrain from calling gender reassignment surgery as “sex change mutilations.” The proper term is gender reassignment surgery. The term you are using is not only incorrect, but deeply offensive. You also seem to be confusing homosexuality with GID. The two have little to nothing to do with each other. I suggest you educate yourself further by actually talking and dialoguing with people, rather than engaging in monologues which are clearly ill-informed albiet passionately held.

    If you cannot be civil, you will be placed on moderation.

  28. cowboy
    March 3, 2008

    I’m going to be sorry. I know I should follow Timothy Kincaid’s admonition and not feed trolls but I have to toss a few crumbs of enlightenment to those who might be swayed by the likes of notreligiousbutmw.

    He/she speaks as if he/she has the ultimate insight into Mormonism. Does notreligious comprehend there might be people here who are Mormon? The arrogance.

    Notreligiousbutmw speaking about gays typed: I don’t like people pushing their beliefs on me.

    Apparently he hasn’t lived in Utah. Every day is a struggle for gays to fight for respect in their communities here in Utah. I suggest notreligiousbutmw read the last two 40 days of news relating to Utah legislature and their proposals in dealing with gay issues. If you want, I’ll supply the references to some rather beefier quotes from my representatives at the Capitol but let’s just say “fear-mongering” is just the tip of the problem we have in Utah.

    And let’s not try to pull a switcheroo on us…trying to make the oppressors become the oppressed. Living as a gay person in Utah is pure hell. The discussion of any mention of even the word: “homosexual” is taboo! Utah was and still is a major battlefield in the war on gay-straight alliances clubs. How dare you suggest Mormons are being open and honest in their dealings with gays.

    Notreligousbutmw typed: @least the Mormons are willing to have dialogue with those who differ.

    Oh really? Why then was it in the news that the newly elected Prophet T.S. Monson will not even acknowledge a rather benign association of ex-gay (recovering) Mormons called Affirmation? (I’ll have you search the Salt Lake Tribune archives for the article.) Have they made any outreach to their once favored Carol Lynn Pearson after she wrote about her gay husband? (You’ll have to read Ms. Pearson’s books about that.) Better yet, why not attend a performance of “Facing East”. Get back to me about Mormons willing to have a dialogue with those who differ after you see this play.

    I just hope these crumbs are not too bitter to swallow.

  29. Timothy Kincaid
    March 3, 2008

    notreligiousbutmw

    People such as Timothy Kincaid don’t think it should even be an option.

    You have been admonished not to make claims that cannot be substantiated. The above claim is absolutely untrue.

  30. notreligiousbutmw
    March 3, 2008

    OK, Tim Kincaid, if I’m wrong, then clarify your position. I had been of the impression that you don’t think it should be an option.

    I don’t want to go endlessly about sex changes, but I will say that if you care about ending animal cruelty, then you’ll favor abolishing sex changes, because they were 1st done on animals. You know what I wrote about Martina Navratilova.

  31. notreligiousbutmw
    March 3, 2008

    Cowboy, addressing your points about Mormons, I base it on personal experiences. Yes, Mormon missionaries do believe in converting even other Christians (I’m not Christian) to their faiths. Mormon missionaries travel to other nations. As to Mormons trying to enact laws which criminalize abortion & different sexual activities, I’m not going to stop them. If they want to go through the legislative process to make them crimes, then I support their right to do so as American citizens. I’m pro-choice on abortion for reasons already given, but I support pro-lifers right to legislate against abortion, though I’ll oppose them, because I understand that abortion is a personal topic for them.

    Mormons have a right to legislate against behaviors that they see as bad. Incidentally, I have been to Utah-Zion Natl. Park & Bryce Canyon. If you want to know why I have so much time writing on websites, it’s because I’m chronically unemployed. I once wanted to be a history teacher, but I’ve been fired so many times because jobs get boring & people accuse me of being puerile. Mormons often speak different languages such as Chinese, Korean, Japanese. Many Mormon missionaries go to Spain, Korea, & other nations.

    The critiques that I’ve been reading about Mormons happen because you don’t like the views that Mormons espouse, but I share their views on some topics. Incidentally though the Holocaust wasn’t raised on this forum, I would have no problem if schools allowed the views of those who were in the Einsatzgruppen (if there are any still alive) speak. I write this because the Einsatzgruppen are also Holocaust witnesses, only that they committed it. Why did they shoot & kill Jews-men, women & children in the ditches? If we’re going to have all eyewitness accounts of the Holocaust, then it should also incl. the views of those who did the killings. I know my comments about the Holocaust may anger some people but if you want to know why it happened then even the accounts of the killers have to be heard.

  32. notreligiousbutmw
    March 3, 2008

    FINAL THOUGHTS. This is my last post on this topic because anything more I say will repeat what has been said before. 1st to Jim Burroway & Timothy Kincaid, I wasn’t born in 1998, yet you & the others write as if you’re raising something new which hasn’t been talked about. I recognize that you find my comments offensive. I expect you to be offended, but bringing up opposing views which you hate is how dialogues are created. I don’t write for my benefit, I write here with the hope that more people who share my views can take my lead & give their views here or other sites similar to yours to force you to dialogue.

    Cowboy, the Truth is that what GLSEN, GSA & the other groups you imply really aren’t interested in open discussion. Tammy Bruce said that groups like GLSEN have no place on school campuses because dialogue isn’t what they want, but rather proselytize. Tammy Bruce is 1 of the few lesbians & exceptions in the mainstream media who deserves credit for warning adults about the agendas of groups such as GLSEN & to not be fooled by their euphemisms.

    Honestly, there are few in the press, incl. Fox News who honestly discuss this. On Fox News, Bill O’Reilly, Martha McCallum & the guests usu. repeat your views, often times with 1 sided views though sometimes opposing views are given. Even Sean Hannity usu. takes an easy approach to these topics. When differing views such as that of Sandy Rios & Patrick J. Buchanan are given on Fox News, it’s almost always involves balancing by some1 who shares your view. The only other journalist I can think of in the mainstream press who is fair on the topic of homosexuality is Laura Ingraham who incidentally has a gay brother.

    I don’t watch much TV or the press anymore because politics & sensationalism often trumps facts. Another eg. of press 1/2 truths is the OJ Simpson case. Now I thought that there were reasonable doubts, but I’m not saying that he was innocent. If OJ Simpson did it, then it most likely was 2nd Degree murder caused by provocation, because I don’t think it was planned. Ordinary people can commit murder if given the circumstances, but the prosecutors didn’t prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. But whether or not he did it, Bill O’Reilly repeats the same 1/2 truths about the trial, such as that OJ Simpson was acquitted because of the race card, which is rubbish. Bill O’Reilly usu. doesn’t have guests who saw the entire trial & have reasonable doubts, but rather the same guests who repeat the same things, because he implies that he doesn’t want honest discussion.

    I’m sorry for going into unrelated topics, but my point remains that I try to avoid watching the press coverage, because they seem to be more interested in advancing agendas, than the truth. Though I oppose U.S. intervention in Iraq because it didn’t help American interests, I also get tired of reading the biased coverage of this, which is why I avoid what most reporters write about it.

    The topic of homosexuality, the discussions of Mormonism are topics which I now try to avoid the mainstream press coverage. The Mormon Church did issue statements pointing out the wrong conclusions given by the Salt Lake Tribune surrounding the Danzigs. But the fact remains that the 1st thing the mainstream press does is present 1/2 true accounts of the Danzig case because on certain topics, the mainstream press usu. doesn’t care about the facts.

  33. Jason D
    March 3, 2008

    “With Gender Dysphoria (GID), when repair therapists do discover the vaccine or pill to cure GID, psychologists will advocate this cure & we’ll hear about how science has been sadly wasted mutilating patients”

    1) There can’t be a vaccine, since a vaccine is weakened or dead form of an organism. No parasite, virus, bacteria or other organism is involved in homosexuality, lesbianism, or transsexuals.

    2) A pill is also a wasted notion as these three phenomenon have been ruled to not be pathogens. Additionally if any of these phenomenons were simple enough to cure with a pill, it would’ve been done so. Every day we find more wrinkles about the complexity of human sexuality.

    “& have no doubt that many people who suffer from GID will take the the cure. The same with homosexuality & lesbianism.”

    For there to be a cure, there has to be a disease. I am not diseased. I am not suffering because I refuse to let anyone tell me there’s something wrong with me because I share a deep and beautiful bond with another man. He has brought nothing but joy to my life, and there is no science that can prove otherwise. There is no spirituality that can convince me that love is wrong between two consenting adults.
    Long ago it was discovered that the “suffering” homosexuals endured was at the hands of an uncaring, unfriendly, and often violent society.
    But as you can see, that has been changing, and so too has the mental health of gays in America, to the point where nobody bothers doing studies on how well we are because all of the data has been convergent. We’re fine, thanks.

    With no disease, no virus, no bacteria, and no pathology, what exactly is there to cure?

  34. Teresa
    May 9, 2009

    I can’t speak to the homosexual issue but I can speak about transsexuals as I am one and have done considerable research on the subject. Thank you Priya Lynn for posting those links on the subject. When sexual reassignment surgeries were first made available, there were a huge number or suicides because there was nothing in the form of a screening process. The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), formerly the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association, have set up comprehensive screening techniques to filter out those who do not truly need the surgery. The number of those who regret the having the procedure done is very low. The majority of suicides are committed by those who do not have the option of the operation. This is why medical treatment is so important. Comparing transsexuals to being black is ridiculous as few blacks, to my knowledge, commit suicide as a result of their genetics.

    My own story is that I’ve felt different in my early childhood and, at the age of 8, I discovered I was the wrong sex. This has never gone away and has created anguish during some portions of my life. Thankfully, I can have this corrected with hormones and surgery. It might be considered mutilation to some but it’s a complete necessity for me. I have read that homosexuals have had similar experiences in that they’ve known, even as a child, that they were different. My heart goes out to them.

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