11 responses

  1. a. mcewen
    December 29, 2008

    Excellent analysis. I linked my blog to this entry.

  2. David C.
    December 29, 2008

    Any reasonably complex tale involving gay people will not be carefully examined by people like Charlene. Most of these individuals are not inherently bad people, but they are not diligent when that diligence may cause them to question belief in their leaders or cherished ideas. In fact this failing is not confined to any particular religious or political persuasion. Many of us suffer from it.

    The tale of the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association Auditorium Pavilion clearly illustrates a point that religious organizations have always faced: involvement in secular enterprise removes the insulation between private religious practice and the rest of society. When religious organizations embrace or take positions on public issues, or seek to otherwise intervene in the human condition, they often expose themselves to the laws governing secular life. By making agreements with governments to operate any or all of their enterprises as public facilities or services, they covenant with the rest of society in a way that is not guaranteed to be everywhere consistent with their purely religious and private beliefs.

    The Association wanted to have it both ways: behave in some respect like a secular organization that served the community of which it was a part, and at the same time be a religious organization with respect to a facility that had been “lent” to the public in exchange for governmental consideration. By denying use of a “public” facility in the name of their faith, they broke their covenant with society. The fact that a same-sex couple was being denied use of the facility was in fact irrelevant to the legal question.

    Religious organizations that choose close liaison with civil society in the interest of benefiting from that society must be prepared to tolerate viewpoints that are at odds with their doctrines or beliefs, otherwise they should not venture out into the real world where the civil protections of those outside the faith prevent the faithful from remaining true to their convictions.

    Anti-gay leaders have distorted the case of the Auditorium Pavilion. They were, in fact, lying by doing so. That’s not likely to stop anytime soon. Gay-supportive organizations need to be constantly on the lookout for this behavior and counteract the lies by publishing the truth, which in my view, should be a major component of their activism.

  3. lurker
    December 29, 2008

    I found this statistic from Charlene’s webpage particularly interesting:

    73% of all homosexuals have had sex with boys under 19 years of age.

    That’s a very high percentage of homosexuals . . . does that include lesbians? I don’t know many lesbians who have had sex with boys, but perhaps I just don’t get out much!

  4. GDad
    December 30, 2008

    Charlene forgets that 84% of all statistics found on the internet are just made up on the spot.

    Thanks for the analysis of the NJ situation. I love that I can get a reasoned commentary on these issues at BTB.

  5. Pat
    December 30, 2008

    Lurker, Charlene’s “statistics” were rather interesting. I’m glad to know that I passed the average life expetancy for gay men. Also, it doesn’t help her case to say that homosexuals make up 1% of the population in one stat, then they make up 2% in another stat.

    The other problem with statistics is that even when they are correct, they can be misleading. For example, the stat that 73% of all homosexuals have had sex with boys under 19, which seems reasonable when looking at it another way. I would gather that since most people, gay or straight, had sex before they were 19, most of their partners at the time were under 19. In fact, if I understood Charlene’s story (under the link “My Story” on her website) correctly, it appears that she herself had sex with a boy under the age of 19 as well. Or at the very least, her ex-husband had sex with a girl under 19.

    By the way, if you read her story, she unknowingly, gives a good argument to strip marriage rights for heterosexuals as well.

  6. cowboy
    December 30, 2008

    Gay-supportive organizations need to be constantly on the lookout for this behavior and counteract the lies by publishing the truth, which in my view, should be a major component of their activism.

    — David C.

    I think BTB is part of this process. I brought up the facts illuminated by Timothy Kincaid’s posting with some very close/trusted Mormon friends. They acknowledge the deception by the folk at Pro-Proposition 8 on this point. However, I think they want to insulate themselves (or their Mormon religious leaders) from being directly responsible for this deception. They lay the blame for the deceptive lying with the “political” actions of someone and not the Mormon leadership.

    Before my discussion with my friends, I wish I had read David C. comment:

    Most of these individuals are not inherently bad people, but they are not diligent when that diligence may cause them to question belief in their leaders or cherished ideas.

    Truth is a marvelous thing. It eventually clears the clouds surrounding a debate. I am just glad I got a sympathetic acknowledgment of this fact about the “public pavilion” with my friends and they now are somewhat questioning the rationale for supporting Proposition 8.

    Thanks Mr. Kincaid.

  7. Matt Algren
    December 30, 2008

    Interesting. I found Charlene’s blog in late October and offered to disprove the claims, even linking (three times) to the Box Turtle Bulletin to give her an idea of how wrong and intellectually dishonest the statistics were.

    Sadly (but not surprisingly), she decided to delete my reply and the facts contained therein rather than face the possibility that she was lied to. It’s all too common when talking with people of a certain religious strain. They’ve been taught to trust their leaders for everything, and the thought of having been lied to is out of the question.

    Lucky for me, I screencap everything! Link to my blog post about Charlene’s blog below.

    http://blog.mattalgren.com/2008/10/when-facts-get-in-the-way/

  8. a. mcewen
    December 30, 2008

    I think this is the role that lgbt blogs should play.

    When situations like this come out, the religious right are quick to spin them inaccurately. We should quick to get the entire story out there before this happens.

  9. Ephilei
    December 30, 2008

    Tim

    Thanks for the good article. That story always sounded fishy but I’ve been too lazy to investigate.

  10. Boo
    December 30, 2008

    If you glance around Charlene’s blog, she also thinks she sees ghosts and that Santa is the devil.

  11. Leo
    January 4, 2009

    Even here in NJ there’s a lot of confusion around this case. Likely because of the unusual nature of the Camp Meeting Association and it’s relationship to the larger community.

    This the best summation I’ve seen –good job of bringing all the salient points together.

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